Mailbag: Purpose of Life
Subject: Question
I visited your atheism-home page. I would like to ask that do you think that believing in God is bad? Life is pretty damn hard to go through if you don't have any religion. And what then is the purpose of life? To get as much material benefits such as money, children, good house, jewelry..? I don't think so. It's quite a sad thing that all these material oppulences we get during our life time get away at the moment of death.
This is an interesting argument that some people use, but we don't see too often: people should believe in a god because it makes life easier to get through. Notice that there is no argument that gods actually exist - only that belief is useful, regardless of whether it is true or not.
That, in turn, allows for a very simple explanation of what might be wrong with theism: it isn't ethically or morally responsible to believe in something simply because it is comforting and regardless of its truth value. That, in turn, allows me to explain why I am not a theist: I cannot find any truth value in the claims that god(s) do or even might exist. I could be wrong in this, but I have studied the matter for quite a while and doubt that I am.
I agree that mere material acquisition probably isn't the best purpose a person might have for their life, but that isn't the only option available - and no gods are necessary in order to go with better options. Even if gods exist, they cannot automatically give one's life meaning. That has to come from within, not from the outside.
If there is no God who runs some kind of reincarnation, heaven, hell or something like that, why on the earth are we living here? Why should we do anything but to commit a suicide? Life is full of suffering (disease, crime, wars etc...) so the easiest way to get out of here is to pull the trigger and stop this painful living!
Yes, life is full of suffering - but that isn't all that life is about. Life is also full of love and pleasure, if you are willing to look for them. Living can also be painful - but people who don't believe in an afterlife also don't believe that there are any other options. So if you are stuck with this one life, you need to make the best of it despite all of the problems here. Those who believe in an afterlife, however, don't necessarily share the same view. They think they are going on to something better. So why not "pull the trigger" to "stop this painful living" and move along to a better existence? People who don't believe in an afterlife can have much less incentive to "end it all now" in the face of suffering than people who do believe in an afterlife.
Of course the fact is that we have just been cheated by 'great' scientists and philosophers to believe that there is no God. People don't believe if they can't see. Unfortunately, God has no responsibility to reveal Himself to the ignorant and demonic people who don't want to believe in Him.
I fail to see where anyone has been cheated - except, perhaps, for those who have been convinced that they don't need reasonable grounds for believing things. Ghetto here is a good example of just such a person who has been "cheated" into think that disbelief cannot possibly be reasonable. People who disbelieve are "ignorant" (suggesting that they don't know much when, in fact, many know a great deal - even a great deal more than some believers) or "demonic" (suggesting that their disbelief is at least a moral failing, if not morally perverted and something worth of being condemned). There is also the insistence that anyone who disbelieves only does so because they want to, not because the find it the most reasonable conclusion possible given the evidence they have.
The only way to get contact with Him and understand His amaizing form, is to take shelter of His lotusfeet and to worship Him, and making Him as the final goal of one's life. May Lord Shiva bless us all.
OK, how many people reading this assumed that Ghetto was a Christian, probably a fundamentalist Christian? You see, you shouldn't make so many assumptions about people! Granted, things like this don't normally come from Christians - and when they do, they are more likely to come from a Muslim or a New Age believer. Nevertheless, attitudes such as those displayed above exist in religions all over the world.
More selections from the Agnosticism / Atheism Mailbag...
Comments
You provide no objective basis for your atheistic stance on life’s purpose or morality. You mention “love and pleasure,” yet these become subjective, self-assigned attributes which could, in fact, lead to destruction. What would keep one from loving and finding pleasure in the idol of money to the point of transgressing the law, either one’s relativistic own version or that of society?
You mention a believer being more likely to pull the trigger to move on to a better life in the hereafter. Do you have any stats to back this up? It seems to me that the ones who are spearheading/driving preservation of life issues are believers. If my experiences are any indication, I have met very few atheists who are pro-life or against euthanasia.
And no, I wouldn’t have presumed Ghetto to have been a fundamentalist Christian.
He mentions “reincarnation” which does not paint him as a Christian, more so a Hindu or possibly a New Ager.
So?
No, I don’t.
No, they aren’t. They simply describe their pet issues as being about “life.”
So what’s your moral paradigm? So far it sounds like you center it around pleasure and pain. Is it up to the individual?
Okay. You don’t explicitly mention that a believer is more likely to “pull the trigger,” but curiously pose a question which is a little ambiguous. Can someone who feels that man is just a “higher form” in the evolutionary chain, and not specially created in any way, feel that the human species is of no more purpose than an animal and can be treated as such? (And no, I’m not suggesting that atheists have no morals).
Your response to the “life issues” I would not concur with. Your making a straw man out of those who support such issues.
I don’t try to shoehorn all of life and all moral decisions into a single paradigm.
What’s ambiguous about it?
Perhaps. I don’t think that there is anything that would be impossible for a person to believe.
So?
How so?
[OK, how many people reading this assumed that Ghetto was a Christian, probably a fundamentalist Christian? You see, you shouldn’t make so many assumptions about people! Granted, things like this don’t normally come from Christians - and when they do, they are more likely to come from a Muslim or a New Age believer. Nevertheless, attitudes such as those displayed above exist in religions all over the world.]
Austin! you are BAD!
So, Why is it that, atheist’s or believers alike don’t all just pull the trigger on ourselves if life is so painful? Reflect on your life. There is your answer. fortunately for us, it is human nature to sort of remember the good and forget the bad. If those reading this could only remember the bad, they most likely wouldn’t be here reading it.
“Okay. You don’t explicitly mention that a believer is more likely to “pull the trigger,” but curiously pose a question which is a little ambiguous. Can someone who feels that man is just a “higher form” in the evolutionary chain, and not specially created in any way, feel that the human species is of no more purpose than an animal and can be treated as such? (And no, I’m not suggesting that atheists have no morals).”
Animals, including humans, should be accorded rights and responsibilities according to their needs and intelligence. There are no “Higher” beings, there is no objective, absolute source of “better”. Do you beleive in a natural heirarchy where some things are intrinsically better than others?
Your ideas about how animals should be treated is obviously sub-par, as you cannot imagine humans should be treated in the same way as an intelligent ape rather than a living god (ironically many religious beleivers who claim humanists worship humanity as gods actually deify humans, putting them “above” other animals, and accord them special rights simply because of their genetic code).
Re: Martin
I believe that the last paragraph was meaning to say that when things like this come from non-Xians they usually come from Muslims or New Agers. It was an editing problem, that’s all.
And what then is the purpose of life?
I guess I don’t understand why some people seem to link there is or needs to be some grand purpose of life. It all seems so arrogant to me. If there is any meaning in your life, it is whatever meaning you give it.
I am so weary of the theist argument that life has no meaning or purpose without some sort of god. Listen up “believers”: Maybe YOUR life has no meaning without your silly little god, but MY life has plenty of meaning, thank-you-very-much. YOUR life may be empty and lack purpose without your zombie god-man, but I don’t need to believe in imaginary beings to give MY life purpose. I believe in myself, my family, my friends, and the inate goodness of my fellow man. Life is it’s own meaning and it gives me everything I need to find a purpose.
Unfortunately, God has no responsibility to reveal Himself to the ignorant and demonic people who don’t want to believe in Him.
That is an interesting assertion. Most religious traditions assert that their gods have indeed revealed themselves through revelations which have been recorded in sacred books. Of course even the small number of such texts, which represent only an infinitesimal fraction of the imaginable possibilities, contradict each other. Any test which requires someone to choose between an infinite number of possible answers, with no method for discriminating between the options, is inherently unjust. So if gods exist and plan to mete out reward and punishment based on whether someone believes in them, I would think that there was a moral responsibility to make certain that those involved were informed agents. Why would gods be exempt from such obligations?
OK, how many people reading this assumed that Ghetto was a Christian, probably a fundamentalist Christian?
Not me. The fact that he listed “reincarnation” first among the options for an afterlife clued me in right away.
So humans can’t give meaning to their own lives? We really NEED a god to do this for us? I just don’t see how anyone can think that.
What is the implicit meaning of a wedding ring for instance? It is, in and of itself, just a circle of metal. There is no implicit meaning to a wedding ring.
But when a human sees it, we tend to impose a meaning on it. A “ring” is meant to be worn on the finger. So suddenly the circle of metal has a purpose - but only in our own minds. It is still just a circle of metal in an of itself. Even those who made the ring can’t tell us how to use it or what it means. It could be used as a washer or a ferrule or whatever by the person who picks it up and puts it to use. So even the ring’s maker can’t tell you the ring’s meaning or purpose. That’s because every human being in the world has the power to assign a meaning to things. It’s up to us.
Calling it a wedding ring imposes another layer of meaning. Now it’s a ring, which is to be worn on the finger, that also represents fidelity and commitment. But again, none of this is implicit. The wedding ring is literally just a circle of metal in and of itself. We are the ones who have given it meaning. No one needed God to do that for us.
Life is pretty much the same deal. To assume that your deity of choice is necessary to give your life meaning is to brush off this responsibility on someone else. God, in this case. (Whether God exists or not is another story…)
To me, saying that we need God to bring meaning to our lives just doesn’t make any kind of sense at all. This isn’t difficult or complicated to understand. In fact, we humans give meaning to things so easily that we don’t even realize it when we do.
If God exists, he might very well tell us what he thinks the meaning of our lives should be. But we certainly don’t NEED HIM to do that for us. We’re perfectly capable of that on our own.
IsaacJ
I am so weary of the theist argument that life has no meaning or purpose without some sort of god.
It seems that the whole meaning and purpose of theist life is to suck up to and be the slaves of a superior being. Makes you wonder, what is the meaning and purpose of their god’s existence? Why doesn’t he pull the trigger on himself?
(Maybe he has already done so? Maybe he believes in a super-god to give him purpose?
Life is pretty damn hard to go through if you don’t have any religion. And what then is the purpose of life? To get as much material benefits such as money, children, good house, jewelry..? I don’t think so.
So your basically saying, that your faith is simply based on your inability to find a purpose in life? I strive to make my life and others involved in my life the best it can be. I strive to make my children happy, and my wife. That in itself is a good enough purpose to live. Stop being so greedy and trying to impress not only the people around you but a god who lets millions of people die of cancer/Aids etc. every day. What was their purpose of life?
>This is an interesting argument that some people use, but we don’t see too often…
I see it somewhat often–although perhaps not as a first-line apologetic. Ironically, and I don’t put this forward as a “normal” week in these terms (but…), I saw this argument three times in the span of just two days now.
It was put to me by a theist who claimed that belief in god has benefits. I noted that (1) I’ve never seen any benefit a person could gain from belief in god that isn’t available via other means, but that (2) if such a benefit were available, it would amount to the argument: Since belief in god helps people in unique-way-X, people should believe in god, even if it is a lie.
Then, I saw this put forward in a book someone asked me to read. The author mentioned that he had been approached with the same argument and had the same reaction: Namely, noting that the argument does nothing to address whether or not a god actually exists.
Now I see it today at your forum–and you see the same problem: “Notice that there is no argument that gods actually exist…”
My husband beliefs in god. I asked him whether he thought that people were responsible for constructing “meaning” in their own lives. He said he didn’t think of it as a “responsibility” so much as an “opportunity.” And I totally agree.
The fact that we are here, we can think, we can reason, and we can see cause/effect and action/reaction, allows us to make decisions about what is best and important to us all. This is a privilege–to be able to do this; not simply to have the mental capacity–but to live in a time/place where we have quite a bit of freedom as well to take advantage of excercising what makes us happy and what benefits us and our communities.
Some people seem to fear that if they accept meaning is self-imposed, that will breed chaos. In other words, if I allow Ted Bundy to create his own meaning in life–then he’ll serial kill–and since meaning is self-defined, I have to accept Ted’ meaning as valid.
While it’s true that life’s meaning is self-imposed, and while it’s true that whatever Bundy’s meaning is is “valid,” in that it _is_ the meaning he assigns to his own life; it is also at odds with the meaning a lot of other people assign to their own lives; namely, to make the world a nice and safe place to live for themselves, their families, and their communities. This provides the greatest amount of freedom to the greatest number of people. But it means restricting the freedoms of someone like Bundy.
In other words, Bundy has ever capacity to think of his mission in life as “doing the most harm I can to the most people I can get my hands on.” But he has to “get through” the huge number of other people who, as part of their life-meaning, value their own safety–which is inherently tied to the safety of their overall communities.
In other words, the fact that Bundy assigns a harmful (to others) meaning to his existence, in no way should frighten other people away from the “opportunity” to think for themselves or to evaluate their lives and determine what they believe is best. Certainly Bundy and others must factor in how their goals and desires will potentially conflict or align with the goals and desires of others (as that’s a big part of the equation). But that’s life. It’s diverse. And it’s a real trick to take all this diversity and keep trying to make it work to produce something interesting.
But people have been doing it for–well, since long before history. And I see no reason to be so fearful of a natural human function (assigning value) that I am willing to relegate something as important as “what should I do with my entire life?” to another person. And a person claiming he speaks for a higher power, is still just “another person” until he can offer up some verifiable proof. And if he is asking me to forfeit my life–he had better have (1) unquestionable proof he’s not deluded and (2) even if he proves the authority of a higher power, I still need to justify whatever course I’m being told to take. In other words, if a higher power was verified, and told me to slaughter babies, I wouldn’t consent simply because he is a higher power. I’d need a damn good reason to commit such an atrocity–even from a god.
You should not put people down for what they believe in. Just because you don’t believe in God and that He is real you shouldn’t try to deceive other people. In The King James Bible in Revelation 21:08 my Lord says “But the fearful and unbelieving,and murderers,and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:which is the second death.” You are fearful, unbelieving,and a liar so you need to ask Jesus for forgiveness or you’re going to hell.
And where have I done that?
Where have I deceived anyone?
Why should I care what your Bible says and what relevance does it have to this subject?
1. Please support the allegation that I am fearful and a liar. I’ll grant you the fact that I’m unbelieving.
2. Why don’t you accuse me of being a murder, whoremonger, sorcerer, or idolator? You picked three labels out for a specific reason and I’d like to know what it is.
3. Your entire position seems to be “do what you’re told or suffer for all eternity.” In what way does this “offer” differ from that of a mafia hoodlum coming to a business and saying “nice store… it’d be a shame if anything were to happen to it… and if you pay your ‘insurance’ on time, we’ll make sure nuttin’ happens”?
Tiffany,
In the Quran it says:
2:6-7 “As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.”
Don’t worry, I’ll saved you a spot on the shores of the “Lake of Fire”.
Tiffany
Now that we have been informed as to what will happen to us when we die, here is what I think will happen to you when you die. I believe that you will rest forever in everlasting peace. [Same as Ted Bundy]
In general, organisms which cling tenaciously to life will leave more offspring than organisms which commit suicide when faced with adversity. There is an evolutionary bias against suicide.
As for the meaning of life — what about the Christian god? Is it alive? If so, does its life have meaning? If it does, is that meaning dependent on the existence of an even higher god? If not, why not?
Mere theistic rants! The irrationalists expect us to self-brainwash!
Wow, a Hindu pushing the ‘If you don’t believe in god, preferably my god, your life can’t have any meaning’ line. This is the sort of thing one would expect from followers of the three Abrahamic religions, particularly Christians, not Hindus.