Forum Discussion: Morality of Atheists and Agnostics
Wednesday May 21, 2008
Many religious theists seem convinced that atheists and/or irreligious people can't possibly be moral. This is no different, in essence, from Christians saying that non-Christians — regardless of their religion — can possibly be moral. It's not even really different from saying that one has to be white or American in order to be moral and trustworthy. It's a slightly different expression of bigotry, but it's bigotry nonetheless.
In a conversion with a Christian work colleague recently I was accused of being morally bankrupt, as I do not believe in any particular God (god) or religion. Having been educated in a Church of England school and a predominantly Christian society I’m sure Christianity has influenced some of my moral values. However, life experience has helped me form what I believe to be a strong sense of morality without reference to religious scripture. Surely a sense of morality gained by life experience has more value than one gained by reference to a particular religious belief?
Our moral beliefs, standards, and attitudes have a variety of sources over the course of our lives. Why would religion be assumed to be the only or the most important one? Why does this sort of bigotry happen? Do you encounter it very often in your own life? Add your thoughts to the comments here or join the discussion in the forum.
Comments
The first sin in the Garden of Eden was a lie. Atheists have been struggling against con artists and liars ever since.
I’ve been told that since I am an atheist, I must also be a moral relativist, seeing I have no “ultimate authority” to adhere to.
I could have argued against relativism itself, (and perhaps I should have to be thorough,) but instead I just mentioned that he - the person I was speaking to - was also a moral relativist. His morals are relevant to God’s morals; unless he is willing to admit that God and morality are separate. It’s the classic Euthyphro dilemma.
When Saudi men forced teenage girls back inside their burning school, they were doing what the morality of their culture demanded. This seems nonsensical to the Western mind, but morals don’t have to make sense, since they come from God.
As an agnostic, I don’t have morals. I have ethics, which were shaped in part by my Lutheran upbringing, particularly the egalitarian philosophy espoused in the words attributed to Jesus of Nazareth. “All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.” Or, as The Firesign Theatre put, “We’re ALL bozos on this bus.”
When my Vice Principle found out I was an atheist he just had this dumbfounded look on his face. A student said something to him after hearing something else. The VP warned me about discussing the topic of “religion” in a public school with students (even though I did no such thing). The he and the student went on to share with each other, in my presence, that their Christian faith was very important to them. I was dumbfounded. Anyway, later, this same VP came to me telling me that no matter what a particular student in my class made as a final grade, I was to give him a 70 so he would pass and graduate. He wanted to get him out of the school. I was lucky that I didn’t have to do that as the kid did legitimately pass my class. If push had come to shove, the VP was going to have to change that kid’s grade in the official record, not me! Ironic that the atheist teacher stood by her ethics and the christian VP wanted to cheat and lie!
Men are not moral. They are moralizers. They are crooks, suckers, and lazy cowards who talk a good game. Rockytonker seems to know some things, but he just doesn’t understand anything. He’s all apples and oranges. Learn to compare and contrast. Learn to think.
re: #5, John Hanks, “men are not moral…”
As Austin often says, ‘Would you care to provide substantiation to illustrate that this true in every case, as you have stated?’
You know, little kids will automatically lie to keep themselves out of trouble. I really think it’s a built-in defense/survival instinct. I think it is very natural to do whatever you have to do to save your skin. However, we teach kids to be truthful; that lying is not socially acceptable. I do not think teaching children to tell the truth is only necessary because theism dictates that to be a moral necessity. Like so many other things, truthfulness makes it more possible to live in fair, safe, civilized, and peaceful society.
Why Oh Why do theists think they have a corner on the market for morals and values?!! The very fact that there are law abiding, peaceful, cooperative, caring people in this world who are atheists proves otherwise, hands down!
Calling myself Atheist is giving too much importance to godly beliefs and other belief systems that are clearly individual choices ,as i have just come to realise.coming from a country with over 208 different tribes and languages means 208 different customs and traditions just as that of the jewish tribe.each tribe has its own rituals and belief system but no one has ever tried to claim that they are superior as the jewish tribes claimed through judeism that has shaped the Abrahamic beliefs.These are all SUPERSTITIOUS BELIEFS that have never and will never be proven.So i am no more Atheist.AM SIMPLY NOT SUPERSTITIOUS.Full stop!!!
Re. #6. It is OK to make a wild generalization to make a point. The illusion the men are moral has been used by sociopaths to get them to commit every sort of crime. (This is based on my experience. There have been many lab experiments that show that men will obey almost any order.) A single exception only proves the rule.
Crooks fly flags and wear crosses to disarm suckers and steal.
The Republican pledge:
I pledge allegiance to the rag and to the suckers which it cons. One racket under bull with lies and theft for all.
When did you ever hear an atheist say that someone deserves to be killed because he is not an atheist?