Comment of the Week: Insulting Believers by Stating the Facts
If X says he/she believes that Neptune is the largest planet in our solar system, and I say, “Actually, it’s Jupiter,” I have not insulted, attempted to insult, been malicious, or tried to wound or hurt X’s feelings in any way whatsoever. I have attempted, intended and done no harm whatsoever — even on an emotional level. If X freaks out, that is an unreasonable response to a citation of facts or information.
I hope it is not now to the point that simply stating cold facts is uncivil, vulgar, and malicious (even criminal), simply because someone else doesn’t want to acknowledge or hear the stated facts.
I’m sure a lot of racist people didn’t like the results of a lot of research that indicated there aren’t any huge differences between people no matter what their genetic heritage. I’m sure they didn’t like hearing that African-Americans actually CAN be educated at a college level and that children born to interracial couples seem perfectly healthy and intelligent. There is no logical reason they should take it as a personal affront if someone cites such research.
I certainly don't think anyone should accept responsibility for other people becoming unreasonably upset over things nobody has any excuse to be taking personally.
[original post]
The idea that people should avoid speaking the truth or pointing out facts because this upset or "insults" people strikes me as rather Orwellian — but it's unfortunately not a very unusual situation. There are situations outside religion where discomfiting truths are kept quiet because acknowledging them would rock the boat. Preserving social harmony, even if it's only superficial, is preferred to truth and reason.
When religious believers adopt such an attitude with respect to their religious beliefs, scriptures, leaders, and institutions, they open themselves up even more than usual to charges of being anti-intellectual. However much they might dislike some of the things which are written or created, they are better off responding in the realm of ideas and counter-arguments than threats or the cudgel of the police. Resorting to force, blackmail, or terror to suppress expression they find objectionable just sends the message that they fear the ideas being expressed — and that there may be something to them after all.
Comments
Honest ideas and facts are always insulting, especially to the religious.
So true! Even among Unitarians, where once I mentioned in the Fellowship bulletin that the New Testament god was not a gentleman. He had impregnated a young woman, then left it to Joseph to raise the resulting child. This is dishonorable behavior in anyone’s book. Instead of arguing with me, one of the members came to the board and demanded an apology from me. Of course, I refused.
There is a double standard. It is commonly held that one’s spiritual beliefs are protected and special. We should not question them, lest ours be questioned. The Xians aren’t supposed to question Buddha, and the Buddhists aren’t supposed to question Jeebus. Yet, there is no such assumed protection for non-theists. i think that’s unfair.
Faith, or the lack of it, should be a personal matter right up there with your sexual preferences. In other words, whatever you believe is disgusting compared to my own belief system, and I really wish you’d keep it to yourself.
- Marcus Aurelius, a farker
If someone opens their mouth/keyboard about their beliefs, i think they become fair game. As long as you do it tastefully, have at you. There is a big difference between “No, actually Jupiter is the largest” versus “Jupiter is the largest, you idiot”. However comma you can expect them to respond emotionally. You are showing them cracks in their world view. For them, it’s pretty much all or nothing. God is good or god doesn’t exist and life is meaningless. Our beliefs, or lack thereof, choose us more than vice versa. Therefore it seems the only way for someone to reject theism is for them to figure it out on their own. i’ve never seen or heard of someone being argued out of theism.
Great points, John and Todd. Joel, good for you for politely sticking to your point. Simply presenting facts politely and firmly, as often as needed, is one of the best things you can do to help theists eventually see the error of their ways. The other is just to live your life as a happy, friendly atheist to let them see how badly they’ve been misinformed about atheists.
-DF
Religion is an insult to Reason.
Actually, I think the core here truly is the “insulting” part. ie, it’s not that I dare to disagree, but I do so in a way that mocks your belief. That’s where the issue really arises with cartoons, satire, or simply “You’re an idiot to believe something so obviously stupid”. I could actually do quite insulting comments about lots of scientific issues these days that are still being worked out between researchers, and while some might be upset, it would not have the deep shroud-clutching response of the faithful when they are made fun of.
I’ve come to the sad conclusion after half a century on this planet we’ll never win this argument, but maybe at least we can hold the idiots at bay a little while longer.
I am really sick of the “oppressed” religious minority complaining that their beliefs are under cultural assault. This country is overwhelmingly Christian and the majority of people in this country believe in God.
Am I missing something here?
I’m sorry..but I’ve never meet an atheist that needs to justify their existence by proclaiming their self-importance at the expense of others.
… would you gently & kindly correct someone (over the age of
who insisted the Easter Bunny exists & lays pretty colored eggs?…
… no!!!…
… you’d call them an idiot & probably laugh & point at them till they sulked off…
… why should I “respect” foolishness?…
If your belief is your own, why voice it so strongly? Why do atheists need to be heard? Christians voice their beliefs because they believe that through their words, others can find salvation. What are you saving us from? A Christian life is good, so why do I need to believe in nothing? I search for truth, and I also educate myself in the same matters that you yourselves study, so why can’t I live my life the way I want? The fact of the matter is that you do insult our way of life…like with every religion out there, you look for ways to disprove it, and that in itself is insulting. You will never understand what true faith is. Whether I die and have God, and find out then that none of the things I believed were true, did I ever go wrong? Where will your pursuit of knowledge get you in that case? It was all for not, so just end it now! Are you afraid to die? Why be afraid if there is no meaning? Your fear disproves all your theories, you cowards! WHY SHOULD I RESPECT FOOLISHNESS???
Why not?
Because religious theists, and Christians in particular, try to dominate public discourse. Also, many have completely false and bigoted notions about atheists.
False beliefs.
Here is one of those “false notions” I mentioned. Atheists don’t “believe in nothing,” they just don’t believe in any gods.
You can. No one said you can’t. Atheists speaking out can’t prevent you from living your life the way you want. Or are you really asking to live your life without being confronted with any challenges, debates, or disagreement?
You’re insulted when people argue against your beliefs? Funny, but no one says that when it comes to political, scientific, or philosophical beliefs. There must be something “special” about your religious beliefs — and by that, I mean specially weak and insecure. In science, efforts to disprove an idea are welcomed and encouraged because that’s the best path to truth and reliable information. Only those afraid that their beliefs are false get upset at efforts to disprove their beliefs.
I don’t want “faith.” I want reliable knowledge and information.
So you don’t care if you have false beliefs?
Life is good and I would like it to continue, but I’m not “afraid” of death. The assumption that life has “no meaning” for atheists is another one of those bigoted, false beliefs I mentioned above.
Your presumption and assumptions proves that you are more interested in preaching and propping up your own insecure ideology than learning and growing.
You shouldn’t, nor should you believe foolishness. That’s why I’m an atheist.
very well said Austin Cline
I believe in atheism as a form of scientific method or theory. I really don’t care what other people believe, since I can’t change them anyway. What I do dislike however is the endless parade of crooks and con-artists and suckers that make up crook religion.
I should mention that I was shunned from a Unitarian church because they thought I was a Nazi. The time was ripe because they were about to start another building campaign. Liberals are often ineffective because they are more interested in goodness and ideas, than in putting up a fight. They “walk out the room when a discussion turns into an argument”. Nazis are the positive image, while Unitarians are the negative image. They compliment each other too much.
You can change a persons belief, its not easy but it can be done. I work with two people (nice guys, we get allong great) and we discuss lots of things, football, politics, and religion, at this point one of them says he is coming to doubt the existance of any god, and the other has gone from a Christian to a deist, so from all are talks it seems that I have changed some of their beliefs.
Response to #7:
“I am really sick of the ‘oppressed’ religious minority complaining that their beliefs are under cultural assault. This country is overwhelmingly Christian and the majority of people in this country believe in God.”
Atheism, by definition, is not a religion: religions are about the worship of one or more gods. In the U.S., being in the majority does not entitle anyone to oppress the minority. Telling people they should shut up because they’re in the minority is oppression.
“Am I missing something here?”
Yes. You’re missing that everyone has a right to voice their opinion, whether you agree with them or not.
“I’m sorry..but I’ve never meet an atheist that needs to justify their existence by proclaiming their self-importance at the expense of others.”
I’ve met lots of theists who seem to think that they need do so. In fact, you seem to be one of them.