Owen Perry: Fossils on Mountains Proves the Truth of Noah's Flood
In other words, Young Earth Creationists may appear bizarre, but ultimately they are no more bizarre than Old Earth Creationists — creationism doesn't become reasonable just because a person thinks the planet is old. You don't see many people defending Young Earth Creationism in print, possibly because it sounds a bit like defending a Flat Earth. Don't let that fool you into thinking that the viewpoint has gone the way of the dodos, though.
Owen Perry writes in his "Kaleidoscope Column" about why he became a Christian:
Well, my answer is simple enough: after a sincere, honest appraisal of the Bible, God’s How To Manual, and comparing it with the alternatives I’d seen or read, it made more sense than anything else I’d heard.
Source: The Palestine Herald
I wonder just how many "alternatives" he compared the Bible to? I hope that, like so many others born to a Christian culture, he didn't simply limit himself to a few superficial ideas about other religions and then ignore them. A sincere and serious attempt to compare the Bible and Christianity to other religions would require an in-depth and open-minded investigation of books like the Qur'an, the Baghivad Ghita, that Tao Te Ching, and many other texts.
Such an investigation would take a lot of time, too, because a person unfamiliar with the cultures in which these texts were written wouldn't be able to easily understand them the first quick go through. It's little wonder, then, that so few people actually do this — and given how many other important things to do in life, that isn't something we can criticize very strongly.
Of course, by the same reasoning such people can't claim to have done serious research on those other religions and understand them well enough to know for sure that Christianity is superior. When do you suppose that will happen?
For example I’d read, and with an open mind, many of the various “theories of evolution” and learned, quite soon, that those ol' boys can’t even agree among themselves.
Is it possible that Owen Perry's mind so "open" that something could have fallen out? There is only one "theory of evolution" in science, not multiple theories all competing for attention. There is of course some debate and disagreement on some of the details, but that's not what Perry is saying. He can't even explain what these "various" theories are, though he seems to think that the Big Bang is a theory of evolution that competes with the theory of biological evolution. It's not too clear what he is thinking; the only thing that is clear is that his thinking is completely confused and muddled.
Any reputable scientist will agree that there is such a thing as the Law of Cause and Effect; or (to phrase it simply), since something is — a well-ordered universe, amazing in design and purpose, along with plant, animal, and human life — then Something or Someone always has been. (Period!)
I suspect that Owen Perry should avoid trying to phrase something "simply" when he doesn't understand it because he doesn't simplify it or even just oversimplify it; instead he manages to completely misrepresent it. The "Law of Cause and Effect" does not say that "Something or Someone always has been," period or otherwise. There is no such "law" in physics; moreover, even if there was it couldn't be applied to the origin of the universe because all physical laws are dependent upon space and time and those, obviously, are the universe.
Without the universe there is no space and time; without space and time you can't treat causation as a contextual limitation. Asking about the "cause" of the universe or what was "before" the universe is a bit like asking what's located "to the left" or "underneath" the universe: they are terms which assume a context that doesn't apply. To be fair, though, it can be difficult to stop thinking about time, space, or causation as a context for events so it's not surprising that Perry got this wrong. Still, don't you suppose he should have done a little research before misleading his readers in a newspaper column?
As to the origin of the earth and of man himself, even one of the foremost proponents of the Theory of Evolution, in commenting on the age of the earth, made this statement: “If there was ever a cataclysmic event, worldwide, then all our theories are "out of the window.”
My response: Sir, there was such an event. It was a world-wide flood, during the days of Noah. You may read about it in Genesis, chapters six, seven and eight, in the Book of Books, the Holy Bible. The fact that sea shells and fossilized forms of sea creatures have been found high up on the tops of tall mountains, should convince you as to the veracity of that remarkable story.
Now we come to the Young Earth Creationism: the presence of fossils high up on mountains proves that a flood once covered them, not that the rock making up the mountains was once at a much lower elevation and thus under water in a normal manner. Owen Perry doesn't explain why the unnamed scientist should be convinced of this and I wonder if he's simply assuming it as if it were obvious — as if there weren't literally mountains of other evidence of an old Earth.
The only "evidence" Perry has is a Bronze Age text written back when people had no scientific knowledge of any sort. He's more than welcome to hold up the Bible as a literal, historical record of scientific truth because it will lose every time to the real science being done by researchers today. Perhaps it's unfortunate that this will in turn make religions based on the Bible appear anti-intellectual and anti-scientific, but it's only to be expected when one's religion is so constrained by such an ancient text.
This column, by the way, was sponsored by "Jordan Health Services" in Palestine, Texas. Do you suppose that an organization that wants to be a "leading healthcare provider" bases their medical practice on the same sort of understanding of science as that used by Owen Perry? Indeed, is this the sort of "science" that they should even want to be associated with?
Who is “Owen Perry” and does it really matter what he thinks? I can see from what he writes that he must be a blithering idiot so deluded by bible myth that he must have trouble tying his shoes. Of course there are many, many more like him out there in fantasy land. All we can hope is that he doesn’t get an important government job where he can affect others with his delusional thinking.
It’s sad to think that most Americans probably believe these same things. That any person grows up without learning of other peoples, cultures, and histories leads to the lazy thinking, you’ve so clearly exampled.
It’s unfortunate too that it seems most of these people live under the impression that they not only have the only spiritual truth, but also the truth in social and political issues.
Hey!! Just a cotton-pickin minute here!!! I was told that the fossils were placed by Satan to turn us away from God
Sea shells are not found on just any mountain but only on mountains that sit where there used to be a sea. That should be enough to annihilate Owen Perry’s theory of a world wide flood.
I find it embarassing that so many Americans actually believe the Noah’s flood story. This myth should not carry any more weight than any myth that came out of ancient Roman or Greek mythology, which is none at all.
Austin & Marc:
You can’t imagine my deep, deep feelings of embarrassment. When I was a Xian, I was swayed by this “evidence.” One day I presented it to someone who said what Marc said above. It took all of about five seconds in my head–that went something like this:
“I learned in science classes that geography changes and how mountains are formed, and how land masses adjust over time. Why didn’t I ever think of that when anyone was telling ME about the fossils on mountain tops?”
You can bet I NEVER used that argument again. AND the fact that that moment has stuck with me through time shows that my brain–my imprisoned and forcibly subdued intellect was trying desperately to get a subconscious message through to the outside: YOU’VE BEEN BRAINWASHED!…My recollection of this incident, I wholly believe was part of a breadcrumb trail from my mind. A way of saying: PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE. THIS IS IMPORTANT!
Several such moments later (which came through a span of years, actually), and I finally had a comprehensive eureka moment where the message crystalized into: OMG! I’VE BEEN BRAINWASHED! in my conscious mind.
Thanks to my now long-gone friend for pointing out the obvious (as Marc did in this thread). It might not have done the trick, but it did turn the key that much more.
I have many wholly embarrasing moments from my Xian days. And I’m very grateful to be out of that. I wish I could go back and thank all the people who played a part in my deconversion–unwittingly or wittingly, kindly or rudely. I owe them all so very much. And I hope that something I say or put out one day can help someone else in the same way.
That’s why sites like this and the comments and the conversations we all have in our private lives–make such a huge difference. You just never know when that shred of info or that one sentence is going to click in a person’s head and help to unlock his/her mind.
Ron: I forgot to add my obligatory: Paul Bunyon dragged those sea shells up there on the mountain tops when he was dragging his axe along behind him. Whoever told you that Satan story was just joshin’ ya.
Once again, I have been enlightened.
Tracie H, thanks for sharing your story! It’s wonderful. I had a similar secular epiphany myself (I describe it in an essay on the SF Atheists website -sfatheists.com), so I really related to your situation, and your embarassment today. As a friend of mine says “When you finally realized there was no god, didn’t it seem obvious?”
Thnaks for the post, Austin!
All the best,
-DF
In the face of the evidence and current interpretations, such a notion is highly improbable. There is no false truth like Biblical truth.
Damn, I hope that James Watson, of DNA fame, is wrong about intelligence being an inherited trait. Owen Perry and I probably share a common recent ancestor.
Terrell Perry.
does not modern geology/palentology assume several world wide catstorphies with out ‘every thing being out the window’?
Hi Lyle, are you referring to an ancient meteor strike, volcanic eruptions, or other events? Also, please explain “without everything being out the window.” Thanks.
Larry
Perry said that an evolutionist said that if there was ever a world wide catastrophy,’ Everything’ meaning, I suppose, geological dating, ‘Would be out the window.’ I was saying that gelogy evidently does accept catastrophys without their dating being out the window.
Clear?
Okay, thanks Lyle.
It is a common misunderstanding amongst xians… if we can find some chink in evolution’s armor, it all goes bust… then, without evolution, athiests will all convert…
… I’m still trying to get it through my family’s collective skull, that my atheism doesn’t hinge on the theory of evolution…
I don’t know why a world wide flood is so hard to imagine. There seems to be a conspiracy among scientists to set forth only scientific evidence that agrees with their position…There is a scientific filter being used that naturally discards any evidence that contradicts what is being taught in schools and universities, because this would upset their evolutionary process. Case in point, a sharks tooth found on a mountain top in Colorado…did the shark swim up there and leave it? Also, considering a young earth, a NASA scientist told me personally that the reason the lunar module had those enormous landing pads was because, according to the ‘theory’ that the world is 4.6 billion years old, the cosmic dust would have accumulated up to 36 feet in depth. The moon, not having wind or water to cause the dust to compact a settle would have this accumulation. When Neil Armstrong stepped off the lunar lander he gave his historic speech. Buz Aldrin,(a Christian) said “houston, the dust is only about a quarter of an inch deep, I can just kick it up with the toe of my boot” The scientists at NASA ran to their caluclators and came up with an age of the universe of just about 8 thousand years…So, if there wasn’t a world wide flood, then the mountains (and fossils contained therein) would have had to do all that forming in less than eight thousand years. If there was a flood, it accounts for the formation of mountains at a very quick rate and the fossils contained in them. If this is right, then the Bible is right, and God’s word must be accepted as true. But most people will scoff at this evidence. Then I leave you with one more piece of evidence. The Bible says that “The fool saith in his heart, there is no god.” If you refuse to believe the Bible, then you’re a fool.
Mike, which god is the right one ? I want to believe, really, just say wich one god I should worship… Zeus, Thor, Allah, Shiva ? eh ?
Shells on mountains are easily explained by uplift of the land. Although this process is slow, it is observed happening today, and it accounts not only for the seashells on mountains but also for the other geological and paleontological features of those mountains. The sea once did cover the areas where the fossils are found, but they were not mountains at the time; they were shallow seas.
A flood cannot explain the presence of marine shells on mountains for the following reasons:
Floods erode mountains and deposit their sediments in valleys.
In many cases, the fossils are in the same positions as they grow in life, not scattered as if they were redeposited by a flood. This was noted as early as the sixteenth century by Leonardo da Vinci (Gould 1998).
Other evidence, such as fossilized tracks and burrows of marine organisms, show that the region was once under the sea. Seashells are not found in sediments that were not formerly covered by sea.
MaikUniversum, there is only one God, one creator and he is learned about by reading the Bible.
Eric3575, shells and sea life is easily explained when layers of sediment were piled onto each other in a short period of time. There are these curious sea fossils in the mountains on every continent and not just where there were shallow seas.
When you look at mountainous areas such as the Grand Canyon where you can see the rock layers, we are told that each layer represents millions of years. Yet these layers are all flat. How is that possible? No signs of erosion within the layers. We are told the Grand Canyon was created by erosion. I agree with this. What I disagree with is that it took millions of years to create it. How could a river erode through the rock layers that took millions of years to lay down supposedly? The shape of the erosion is V shaped instead of U shape which signifies a quick erosion. Why was it a quick erosion? Because the layers of sediment were still soft. There are examples of this curious rock formation all around the world. One more Grand Canyon point… there are at least two layers missing…. If they represent millions of years, you’ve got a big problem to explain away. If they are mud deposits, not such a problem.
“MaikUniversum, there is only one God, one creator and he is learned about by reading the Bible.”
Not according to my friend Adeel. He says the Bible is crap and that Allah is the one creator. Either one of your is lying or both of you are.
And which version of the Bible? There are dozens and there are striking differences between them. Some say, Thou Shalt Not Murder. Some say, Thou Shalt Not Kill. Which is it? Those are very different instructions. If one is wrong, why did God let his word be misinterpreted? Can’t he send a note to the folks who got it wrong?
What about all the sections of the Bible that some Bibles omit and others don’t? Are these books wrong, or are some of the Bibles wrong for not including them?
Where did you get your geography degree? What readings did your carbon dating give? Why are you keeping your findings a secret? How can the layers be missing? Are some floating, held aloft above the others?
Richie Cunningham (20). In my 50+ years as a geologist/geophysicist, I don’t believe I have ever seen so much totally erroneous drivel in a single comment; too much to even waste my time trying to refute. Did you get your geological education from a highly educated (5th grade, and I am being generous) fundamentalist preacher? They seem to be experts in every field of science.
Also, Richie, you have not yet answered my question to you on 6-26-09. You said that the Bible is infallible. Jesus said the Earth is flat; either the Earth is flat, or Jesus lied. Which?
I will make a comment for anyone who might be concerned about fossils scattered on the mountains. Fossils are weathered out of the sedimentary rocks. Mountains composed of Pre-Cambrian sediments, igneous, or metamorphic rocks are devoid of the scattered fossils, unless they are capped by fossil-bearing sedimentary rocks.
Todd (21). I can tell by your comments that you are serious about geology. Many layers are missing in any sedimentary sequence. Between every two layers, a layer is missing. The missing layer (which may be less than an inch to many feet)is generally the result of non-deposition or erosion. I am working on a Drilling and Construction Hazard Survey in the Gulf of Mexico at this time. The youngest late Pleistocene sediments have been removed by erosion (evidenced by truncation of faults and enclosed stream channels, in this case)when sea level was lowered during the late Pleistocene Ice Age. Overlying early Holocene sediments were deposited as the glaciers melted, and sea level rose to its present position. A several thousand-year layer of marine sediment is missing. The missing time in the geological record is an unconformity; you can find a good discussion in any good elementary geology textbook. If a missing layer is the result of non-deposition, it is a nonconformity. There are also paraconformities, disconformities, and …
Proof is a math notion. Evidence supports. It never proves.
Why did Noah’s Flood only cover mountains composed of Cambrian or older rocks? I challenge any Creationist to come to the Appalachian Mountains in northeast Georgia, eastern Tennessee, and western North Carolina and find a single fossil.
(25)I accidentally omitted “early” Cambrian.
Did Noah have a salt-water aquarium on the Ark? He had to save the marine organisms; they would have died when the salt water was diluted.
Why are all of Noah’s “mountain fossils” salt-water organisms? Maybe the Flood was salt water. Possibly, but where is the worldwide layer of halite (NaCl) that would have crystallized and been depositeded as the salt water evaporated? A salt-water flood would have killed the fresh-water organisms.
Isn’t Creation Science fun!! Always the source of a good laugh!!!
Richie and Mike,
Pick up a good geology text on the formation of the Grand Canyon and perhaps if you read it without preconceived notions that all knowledge must conform to your “Book”, then maybe you will understand how all those layers and fossils came about. They certainly did not form through the simple minded methods you describe. Is so pathetic that fundamentalists fear scientific knowledge.
And there is no conspiracy among scientists to withhold the “truth” from the public. That you would say something like this shows that you lack the ability to use critical thought and logic. That is the great harm that fundamenatlism does to the mind though and society. It is a mental sickness and a dangerous pathogen which infects our culture.
naturalist (28). I agree with a comment of anonymous source “Truer words were never spoken.”
Hmm, they didn’t seem to find ANY fossils of organisms like Kangaroos, Wallabies, or Koalas (which are indigenous to Australia, which was undiscovered and unknown in “biblical” times). Nor did they find any turkeys, jaguars or “New World” monkeys, which are all only found in the Americas (also undiscovered and unknown to humanity 4,000 years ago). No polar bear or penguin fossils either.
Noah would have had to travel the world in the boat he was (simultaneously) building in order to collect 2 of each animal.
We should also remember that when this fable was written, “the whole wide world” consisted of the Middle East – there was absolutely no knowledge of the animals I’ve mentioned above, so naturally, they’re not in the story.
The tale of Noah’s Ark has been thoroughly sunk by all the holes in it’s hull.
While reading up on some of this on other sites, I found some wonderfully laughable Christian fundie “geology” and “zoology”:
During biblical times, there was only one continent (there they go again, taking something from true science and distorting it to their preconceived ideas), with a specific and unchanging climate; and koalas, polar bears, penguins, etc. not only thrived in this environment, but are actually native to the Middle East! Koalas migrated to Australia after the flood, because that’s the only place eucalyptus trees survived.
I guess it means nothing to these people that absolutely NO fossil record exists of these species (or their food sources) ever having been located in the Middle East.
Richie Cunningham, I would still like to know if the earth is flat, or if Jesus lied to his disciples.
Creationists are incredulous that evolution happens at all or on a macro level to genera and species of life on this planet.
While the analogy I am about to make is not strictly the definition of evolution and natural selection, evolution could be seen essentially as about living matter developing into new and varied forms over time through the internal arrangement of genes(which also change over time).
We see this process going on around us all the time.
Tiny seeds change into an astounding diversity of plants of a great range of sizes and complexity from tiny mosses to gigantic redwoods. Microscopic fertilized eggs change into an amazing variety of animals also of great ranges of sizes, morphologies genera and species.
Eggs change into caterpillars then metamorphose into moths and butterflies. That is one of the most remarkable illustrations of how matter can change morphologies and in relatively little time.
If these morphological changes to matter happen around us all the time,in small amounts of time, why is so hard to accept that given a immense, almost incomprehensible amount of time that matter would change and evolve into the diverse forms we see around us today including of course ourselves?
Perhaps it is just natural law that energy and matter over time is constantly re-arranging itself into a multiplicity of forms. The speculations and theories of how energy and matter originated though is not really the part of the science of biological evolution.
A book from 2006 “Into The Cool“, by Dorian Sagan (Carl Sagan’s son), explores a possible theory of how energy and thermodynamics results in the evolving complexity of the universe that includes the origins of the varied forms of life.
http://www.amazon.com/Into-Cool-Energy-Flow-Thermodynamics/dp/0226739376/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247657111&sr=1-1