Charley Reese, an excellent example of this phenomenon, writes:
The basic thing that protects our persons, our property and our liberty is the morality that individuals possess in their own hearts. The law cannot be a substitute for that. No law can protect you from a dishonest merchant or a thug because the law is always, of necessity, applied after the fact, and then only on a selective basis.
That is certainly true. Why is it included in an article on why society needs religion? Because of the premise that atheists cannot have “morality... in their own hearts.” You see, Charley Reese apparently feels that so long as a person believes in some sort of god, they can be trusted to be moral. Once they abandon such a belief, however, they necessarily can’t be trusted anymore.
That’s a curious premise to rely on. After all, most people in society believe in some sort of god — are all of them honest and trustworthy? Are the prisons all filled with atheists? No. In fact, the percentage of atheists behind bars is lower than the percentage of atheists in the general population, suggesting that if anything atheists might be a bit more trustworthy then the average person.
But let’s not confuse Reese with facts, that will only throw him off his rant...
Our own country has a Christian heritage. Despite the fact that there were non-Christian minorities, during the Colonial and early republic days the overwhelming majority of Americans were of the Christian faith. What began happily as tolerance for non-Christians has now degenerated into demands by some non-Christians that all traces of Christianity be driven from the public square.
Charley Reese seems to be hoping that his readers aren’t too bright. In using an ambiguous phrase, “public square,” he can say something that is true and hope that it will be interpreted in a manner that is false. Reese’s statement is true if we define “public square” in the sense of “supported and endorsed by public funds, i.e. the government.” Many non-Christians do indeed wish to have the government stop endorsing and supporting Christianity — that’s what the separation of church and state is all about. If Reese were this clear and explicit, however, his anti-atheist position wouldn’t appear so sensible.
Instead, he uses something much less clear: “public square” can and will be readily interpreted as “out in the open, in public view.” This would include expressions of religious belief being made by private individuals while out in public, like in a literal public square. This isn’t something that non-Christians are trying to eliminate. Private religious expression isn’t in any real danger. Sometimes the government make inappropriate moves against private expression, but they are pretty rare and quickly corrected.
Once again, though, we shouldn’t use clear-thinking and facts to confuse Reese...
I surprised some people once by saying that I would rather live in a neighborhood of Islamic fundamentalists than in a neighborhood of atheists and agnostics. That's true. You can count on the morality that Islam teaches; there is no morality for atheists and agnostics, except what they arbitrarily choose.
Clearly, Charley Reese considers the likes of Osama bin Laden and the Ayatollah Khomenei to be more trustworthy than the likes of Bertrand Russell, Katherine Hepburn, or myself. None in this latter group have participated in terrorism, suicide bombings, or plans that kill thousands of innocent people. None of that matters to Charley Reese, though. Their atheism renders them untrustworthy. Osama bin Laden, though, is trustworthy — no matter how many people he kills.
Some years ago, I inadvertently put this to the test by becoming lost late at night in the slums of Cairo, Egypt. Despite being dressed in an American business suit and far from any law enforcement, I was never accosted or threatened by anyone. I dare say there are American slums where no sensible person would wish to go late at night.
I’m sure that there are American slums that would be dangerous for someone to walk around in alone at night. Are those slums populated entirely by atheists? Of course not. Most of those slums are populated by ethnic minorities, groups which have a far higher rate of religiosity and theism than the rest of the population.
Charley Reese would be amusing if he weren’t so pathetic. Throughout his entire bigoted rant against atheists, he fails to offer a single substantive reason to think of them as untrustworthy or immoral. He does, however, manage to offer examples of untrustworthy theists. Does anyone think that he noticed this little incongruity? Probably not. Such is always the case with bigotry and prejudice. Bigots don’t get that way through sound reasoning and clear thinking, so when they produce incoherent diatribes like this it’s just not surprising.
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As the world becomes more atheist, it is getting more perverted, violent, etc. Taking prayer out of the school,etc. because of atheists has increased violence, etc. NOT helped stop it. Atheistic Communism such as China is very evil. Jesus Christ, who is the Way, the Truth, and The Life, warned us this would happen in the end times. That is why WWIII will happen in the very near future as well.
Thank you for that. It made me laugh so hard. You seriously just made my day. Great joke.
Actually Cindy, the medieval and dark ages were some of the most violent times in the world. Religion caused them. What about the crusades and the inquisition? Religion caused them Atheism is based on the concept of free thought where as most major religions, ESPECIALLY Christianity are based on blind faith and devotion. It is because of people like you that our school education system is so flawed. For example; China, Japan, and Sweden have much better education than most american private schools and are also predominantly Atheist. I am 13 years old and have skipped 2 grades; I am in 10th grade. But still my education is insufficient, as I have to wait for kids blinded by devotion to catch up with me. Please stop holding back our youth and let our world become peaceful.
Name 1 violent act caused by science or atheism. I can name a lot of violent acts in the name of religion: the recent Oslo bombing, 9/11, the Crusades, the Holocaust, the Witch trials, and plenty of beheadings in Iraq.
Actually Aaron, atheism has been much more deadly than christianity. Whereas christians give at a rate of 4:1 vs atheists and volunteer to help in the community (i.e. Habitat for Humanity) at rates around 2:1, they haven’t really accounted for many misguided deaths. If you add up the crusades and iquisitions,etc you’ll find scholarly totals of around 1million to 1.4million. Now since 1900 we’ve had atheist leaders create atheist armies and kill 120+ million. Yes Over 120 million. Lenin (5-7 million), Stalin (23-30 million), Mao (49-80 million), Pol Pot (1.7 million), Kim Il Sung (1.6 million), Castro (30k-50k). And there are more. That’s alot of bloodlust by the godless.
Who don’t act in the name of atheism, thus undermining your entire argument. Of course, that’s an obvious flaw which I’m sure you were aware of, thus leaving the question: why lie so openly about atheism and atheists?
Actually, your figures are pure bulldust, as has been proven often (I could write you essays on each of these historical personages, if you wish).
But what about the 16 million dead of WWI, sent to their graves by leaders who all believed that ‘god was on their side’ (I am not including those killed by the righteous christian armies of the West — and Japan —in attempting to strangle Bolshevism during the Russian Civil War)?
What about the 80 million killed in the second inter-imperialist struggle, known as WWII, most of them also killing and dying with the belief that they were doing the work of one or another invisible friend?
What about the millions killed in the ‘global south’ by the god-fearing imperialists of Great Britain, France, Spain, Italy, even little Belgium (remember the Congo?) — not to mention the millions killed by, or at the behest of, that ‘Supreme Christian Nation,’ the USofA (and its constituent colonies), some of them in the ‘crusade’ to destroy ‘godless communism’?
And that’s just *one* religion (two if you count Shinto)…
All I have to say to the previous commentator is: Sweden. That is a country in which 75% of the population does not believe in god (although many, 50%, believe in some sort of life force/pan-theistic stuff) and does not exhibit the same problems that many other places do. France is also similar although they have a damn near religious belief in socialism that is bankrupting them and is the source of their immorality, IMO. Plus they have a problem integrating their immigrant minorities and that causes lots of problems. I know because I lived in the immigrant neighborhoods this time last year.
I don’t understand how people as intelligent as Charley Reese in many regards can have such large blind spots when it comes to things like science and evidence for a god. He demands the government produce evidence for everything they do and yet he doesn’t hold that standard for ethics and morality. What gives?
Cindy, you are the reason, not atheists or agnostics, that the movie the deliverance was made! And thank you because it was a good movie.
I have never hear of a group of atheists or agnostics crusading or purging the earth of evil doers, aka non-christians.
Agnostics and atheists are immoral and amoral Bastards who do not deserve any respect whatsover. Agnostics and atheists are the scum of the earth for going against all logical and analytical evidence that there is a God governing the universe.
If you think you can support his position with something like a substantive and serious argument, you’re more than welcome to try.
If you think you have logical and analytical evidence that some sort of god exists, feel free to provide it.
@Cindy first century Palestine was pretty violent too. They used to nail people up on bits of wood and leave them hanging there to die, apparently.
Raising children in atheism is nothing but child abuse and that is why children should be taken away from the Bastard atheists and given to Christian families.
Mazar my bigoted freind yes I call you a freind you may hate my people but I will not sink so low as to insult you I merely ask for statistics to confirm what you say but don’t automaticly assume all atheists are immoral
It is impossible to be moral without a belief in the Ten Commandments because the source of all morality is the Ten Commandments. You Bastard atheists who claim to be moral and yet reject the Ten Commandments are insane and psychotic and incapable of logical and analytical thinking.
Austin Cline:You Bastard atheists are the ones who have to prove that God does not exist because you Bastards are the minority. Theists are the majority. And the majority does not have to prove a Damn thing.
Michael: There are so many things wrong with that argument I actually found myself laughing out loud. Sounds to me like you’re basically saying, “We can’t be wrong, because there are more theists around than dumb little atheists like you, you big jerk-face!.” You’ve embarrassed yourself horribly, and I suggest you don’t even attempt to argue against anything anyone says ever again.
As an atheist i hear this one all the time. “You have no moral guidelines blah blah blah” Its the oldest theist argument. They seem to think that because do not fear being cast into hell we dont have any reason to be nice. Just because we dont fear diviine vengeance we still do have morals. Rape and murder are still wrong, and always will be.
Noah Bender:You stupid atheist Bastard. You Bastard atheists can not possibly know for certain that there is no spiritual realm let alone no Hell. But you Bastards will find out that there not only is a God governing the universe but that there is a Hell when you Bastards pass away and stand before Jesus and have to give an account for your misserable Satanic lives. And Jesus will toss you Bastards into Hell for all eternity.
Whereas you, Michael, are the clear and obvious bastion of the sane and reasonable. Your evidence is overwhelming; your logic, razor-sharp. I yield, I yield.
“It is impossible to be moral without a belief in the Ten Commandments because the source of all morality is the Ten Commandments. You Bastard atheists who claim to be moral and yet reject the Ten Commandments are insane and psychotic and incapable of logical and analytical thinking.”
Have you READ the Ten Commandments? Most of them have NOTHING to do with morality. You’ve probably broken several of them many times.
ONE: ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’
Not about morality. This is God (read: The Church) being jealous.
TWO: ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’
Not about morality. This says ‘don’t take pictures or make sculptures or paint’. You broke this on a daily basis in kindergarten.
THREE: ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’
Not about morality. This is censorship and thought control. You break this every time you moan “Jesus Christ on rubber crutch” or yell “Goddammit” when you stub a toe.
FOUR: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’
Not about morality. This is the church tell you to show up for brain washing and tithing. If you do anything other than go to church on that day, you’re a sinner. Most Americans break this every week.
FIVE: ‘Honor your father and your mother.’
Not about morality. Every time you mouthed off to your parents, you broke this commandment. It’s not sinful, it’s called adolescence.
SIX: ‘You shall not murder.’
6th of ten and we FINALLY get to some morality. This didn’t have to come from a god, we figure out this on our own as soon as we understand that murder takes away our loved ones, that death is scary and denies us live and that death puts a burden on society as a whole. Most animals get this and don’t kill members of their own species. This should be #1, not #6. It’s insane that a god would care more about me going to church on Sunday than killing someone on Friday.
SEVEN: ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
This is about prudery, jealousy and being nosey. If my wife is OK with me farking about, it’s none of your business. Monogamy is unnatural for humans. Jealousy doesn’t make ANYONE happy.
EIGHT: ‘You shall not steal.’
This is a good commandment for the same reason as #6. Social contract. We want our property respected and not taken from us. Again, we don’t need a deity to tell us that having something stolen from us is unpleasant.
NINE: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.’
Also good. Also, something we don’t need a deity to tell us. Lies can hurt good relations. Honesty is usually the best policy. Can i lie about someone who lives in another town?
TEN: ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.’
Not about morality. This commandment really says “don’t be envious of the people who are exploiting you, like the church or your king”.
Michael – about the hell thing….sorry, which hell do you mean we are going to? Would that be the Christian one or the Islamic one or the Jewish one? I mean, I don’t think you are exactly worried about going to the Islamic or Jewish hells are you?
That is precisely how worried we dreadful atheists are about your mythical hell. It’s just a metaphorical big stick – most of us grow out of needing any sort of threat to govern our behaviour. Apparently Christians continue to need the big stick in order to be decent human beings. Rather pathetic really.
Michael (10) wrote:
“It is impossible to be moral without a belief in the Ten Commandments because the source of all morality is the Ten Commandments.”
From what I’ve seen of history, and what I see every day in the news, it is impossible to be moral WITH a belief in the Ten Commandments.
How can any more have a properly grounded sense of reality if they follow the first four commandments? How can a person who thinks they have secret knowledge that will give them immortality not feel pity and contempt for those who aren’t part of their little club?
“You Bastard atheists”
Gee, I guess that illustrates the point I just made.
To Fania (15):
From what I’ve read, the Jewish word for “hell” was “gehenna”, the name of a valley south of Jerusalem where municipal garbage was thrown, and were sacrifices had also been dumped by a pre-Yahweh Jewish cult. So that’s your Jewish and Christian hell – a garbage dump that was degraded because it was associated with a rival god (see the First Commandment). Much of what is called and named “evil” in the Torah (ie the Old Testament) is really just gods and concepts from rival local religions (like the name Beelzubub). Gee, what could possibly have been the motivation for doing that?
Michael Mazar, please learn more attempted insult words. “Bastard”, initially only a show of ignorance, when repeated continuously becomes rather boring. Reminds me of a tiny dog, afraid of its own shadow, growling in an attempt to appear viscious; say “BOO” and watch it run!!
If I were a Xtian, and thought I would spend eternity with such hate filled people in Heaven, I would request Hell!!
Very simple morality: The Golden Rule, which predates Christianity by centuries. Pretty much covers everything.
There have been rules governing behavior for centuries before Judaism existed (and which Christianity came from). You seem to be a very ignorant, scared human being. My mother brought me up with good manners, kindness to others, and great morals. Neither she nor I were ever brought up with religion. I feel quite the lucky person that I was not “brainwashed” by sunday schools or churches!!
I personally belive that Atheists have better morals than most so-called “Christians”. I hope you can one day feel love in your heart for all people regardless of religion.
Michael Mazar, you imply that you are capable of logical and analytical thinking. Why have you so carefully concealed it?
In my eighties. I knew (Biblically) one woman to whom I was married for forty six years. I do not use alcohol, drugs, nor smoke. I never play the horses, have ever been in a casino.
Was involved in a lot of sport in my youth, took part in WW2 and other areas. Respected all women and most men. Have been an atheist all my life as was my father.
Michael should be ignored, he is either a semi literate not worthy of a response, or just as ignorant, a “Stirrer” lacking intellect, experience, and knowledge.
Tom Edgar (21), your last sentence describes Michael perfectly.
An old proverb says about the same, but expresses it a little differently. “He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool – avoid him.”
Goodness, “christian love”, you could spot it a mile away, people like michael don’t do any good for their god by spewing such hate.
Agreed.
This site is a wonderful source of “this is your brain on religion” cautionary tales.
I bet if we went on about “bastard theists” all the time it’d be proof that atheists are all evil.
Michael preached and ran, as I expected. I wanted to ask him why he capitalized “Bastard” when used as both a common noun and as an adjective.
I wonder how his Jesus feels, when seeing bastard used by a Xtian as an attempted insult, being a bastard himself; the Bible very plainly shows that the Holy Ghost and Mary were not married. The word “bastard” cannot be an insult to the intended recipient. The product of an out of wedlock conception is not responsible for its own conception, with one exception – Jesus, who was his own unmarried father.
I probably shouldn’t laugh at Michael. I feel sure that he, with his severely limited vocabulary, is trying his best, although with little or no success, to malign us.
Hey,guys, give Michael his due.
He just showed to us all the true heart of a christian!
“Michael” and the ones like him almost make me feel sorry for the Xstians. They are the ones that have to put up with him on their team. LOL
I love that guy, he is just too entertaining.
Peace
TK
You are such a lousy son of a bitch! I am an atheist and I have never done anything cruel! All you religious hippies and while away talking about God when it can be proven that ‘God’ doesn’t exist! All the religious people are casting massacres across the world and getting away with it by calling it a crusade or a jihad, while we just live a nice life, or at least most of us. Calling us ‘untrustworthy’ is a LIE, you stereotyped, prejudiced, ignorant, blue collar, uneducated bastard!!
John, that was unnescesarilly hurtful and aggressive. Your stereotyping can only serve to anger people- don’t repeat Micheal’s rash behaviour.
And to all christians, I apologize for John’s hurtful sentiment.
Yea, John,
Next time capitalize “Son of a B***h.” Show some respect!
Grandpa
There’s not much sign of Christian love and tolerance among the hate-filled rants of the christians here! I’m, British and atheist. I would be afraid to live in america with its horrific crime statistics so can’t see that the high level of religious affiliation in the population has any affect on morality. I hope that I’m honest, charitable and decent without needing a fear of an invisible imaginary deity to keep me on the straight and narrow!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Atheism_and_morality
This pretty much sums up the whole story. And yes, with empirical and statistical evidence.
Most religious people I know says that Atheism is immoral(though only christians).
Thankfully, I’m Swedish and does not have to put up with this often. But when I hear someone say that Atheism is immoral, I usually take one of the parts in the bible where God is incredibly horrible (like the part where he helps a village of men murder everyone in a town except the virgin girls, whom they kidnap and rape) and recite it. That usually makes them shut up.
The whole point of atheism is that we atheists don’t need a book to tell us what morals we should have. The Ten Commandments have some amount of useful morality (minus the information about God, which is overall very offensive), but it is also important to keep in mind that the Ten Commandments are also thousands of years old. Quite a bit of the information detailed is irrelevant in this day and age.
Michael Mazar and Cindy are two examples of what the mind virus known as Christianity does to it’s unfortunate victims: It robs them of the ability to reason. No amount of logic or statistics will convince them of the truth. Instead, I propose that we somehow outlaw religion entirely, and tolerate these people until they die off, thereby building a better future for subsequent generations.
James,
I, too, see religion as a mind virus; a disease (or is it “dis-ease”) that is deliberately spread from parent to child. Were this not so, the virus would almost cure itself in a single generation. and would have ceased to exist meny centuries ago.
Grandpa
I am a very religious person. I well remember that I once said to an athiest “I understand, that just because a person is an athiest, that it does not mean that thats a bad person”. She accepted what I have said. She said very nice things about religion too. I have seen an athiest or two say very nice things about religion and religious people say nice things about athiests too. These things also happen. Peace!
I am quite happy to have stumbled upon this article and subsequent responses. Atheism is what I am currently on the cusp of and your educated, logical and calm responses make me happy to join that world. Reading the “Michael” issue felt like watching a jealous or angry child walk into an adult discussion, and those loving adults trying to set him right and explain how things actually are.