Scientific Proof for Astrology?
The GuardIan reports:
The argument Seymour puts forward is that the movement of the Sun, moon and sundry planets from Jupiter to Mars, interfere with the Earth's magnetic field. In doing so, the unborn offspring of expectant mothers around the world are exposed to different magnetic fields that toy with the development of their budding brains.
That actually sounds a bit plausible at first glance... but then again, so did the claims that gravity was the means by which the planets influenced people's behavior.
Seymour's suggestion that the stars and planets rule over us has largely been received with the shortest of shrifts. "All I can say is that I have yet to meet another scientist that agrees with his views," says Jacqueline Mitton of the Royal Astronomical Society. "It's right up there with stuff like crop circles being made by extra-terrestrials," says Robert Massey, astronomer at the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, where Seymour worked as a planetarium lecturer in the early 70s.
Most scientists dismiss Seymour's arguments simply because the changes in the Earth's magnetic field that he believes are so significant for our behaviour are so minute. The magnetic field, which is generated by the Earth's spinning molten iron core, is pathetically weak compared with the magnetic fields our gadgets and infrastructure produce. Earlier this year, the government's radiation watchdog, the National Radiological Protection Board, recommended that Britain cut magnetic field exposure from power lines to 100 microteslas, which is still twice the Earth's natural field strength.
"If the Earth's magnetic field collapsed to zero, we'd get a higher dose of radiation from space and that would have an effect on our behaviour, but I don't think it would make it any easier to predict if you're going to come into money one week or the next," says Massey. "Your mobile phone, your television, your washing machine - any electrical equipment you have generates far stronger magnetic fields than the Earth's field."
This is, basically, the same rebuttal given to the aforementioned claim about gravity: sure, the planets have an effect on the gravity and the magnetic fields around us, but that effect is minute — especially in comparison to the effects on gravity and magnetic fields produced by everyday objects around us. The doctor has a greater gravitational pull on a newborn baby that does Mars. The doctor's cell phone has a greater impact on the magnetic field around a same baby than does Jupiter. This is, to put it simply, an example of obviously and desperately grasping at straws.
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I’m sorry but Astrology has already been established as a Science through computer correlations of signs with general career choices.
Don’t just claim that the proof exists, provide sources and citations of the proof. Anyone can write something like that; it doesn’t make it true.
Planets and astral bodies have stable, predictable and coherent effects (in spatio-temporal domain) on the human beings, while the gravitational fields of the doctors, nurses etc and the electromagnetic fields produced by the T.V. and other gadgets are non-coherent and random canceling their respective effects in the time and space domain. So, the arguments put forth by Austin Cline, are not acceptable, and the arguments by Seymour may be valid. So, if there is no proof for Astrology there none against too.
Please provide support for this claim.
Dear Austin,
Like me, I believe, you are also hard-shelled. I am always questioning, too!. I did expect exactly the response you tendered to me viz.
“Please provide support for this claim!”.
Yes!!, I have not done any personal research in this matter. But, I only find contradictory papers/ reports in this regard. For instance:
(i). FOR
*Moon phases , Suicide, and Homicide: In studies of the possible influence of weather in suicide and homicide (1, 2), it was noted that there was still some reference to the role of the moon.
–Pokorny,A. D.,eta!.:Am. J.Psychiat., 120: 377, 1963.
–Pokorny, A. D., and Davis, F.: Ibid., 120: 806, 1964.
**However, Tholuck and Spann have suggested that there may be a positive relationship between suicide and the day before the perigee of the moon.
–Spann, W.: Deutsch. Z. Ges. Gerichtl. Med., 43: 528, 1955.
–Tholuck,H.: Beitr.Gerichtl. Med., 16: 121,1942.
(ii). AGAINST (Most of the more recent reports have discounted the influence of the moon):
Madness and the Moon: The Lunar Cycle and Psychopathology (”http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp-article-owens.pdf”).
Historically, there has been a perceived association between the moon and human biology and behavior that can be traced back to at least Roman times. The idea that the moon can in some way influence human biology or behavior is a phenomenon that has now come to known as the “Transylvanian effect” in the academic literature. Many mental health professionals continue to hold the belief that lunar cycles can alter human behavior despite contradictory evidence, but may also be due to personal, ethical, aesthetic, and intuitive ways of knowing. However, studies that have reported positive findings have been shown to be methodologically flawed, inconclusive, or confounded with other variables. Contrary to this belief in a Transylvanian effect are more recent studies refuting any association, relationship, or correlation between lunar cycles and human biology or behavior. The vast majority of research relating to this phenomenon has been carried out retrospectively utilizing secondary data (German J Psychiatry 2006,9:123-127).
**The study cited at “http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/121/1/66.pdf” also negates the claims of Astrology.
Now the question arises what to believe? I am trained as Medical Professional (M.D.) and a Biophysicist (D.R.M.). Should I believe that subtle gravitational and electromagnetic fields from astral bodies affects the biosystems to the extent that it supports the claims of Astrology. Or, should I accept the statistical analysis favouring notions of Astrology. Rationally I have problems with both these because:
(a). Earth’s gravitational field is stronger than “anything around (!)’. And, the rather substantial, electromagnetic field attendant to body’s own bioelectric phenomena can easily deter the perturbations from the subtle electromagnetic field from the astral-bodies.
(b). And, Statistics! (uff oh!!): The fact that “99% of the people dying in a road accident in a metropolis city were found to wear a wrist-watch” shouldn’t make us believe that the wrist-watch is the cause of death.
So, I am back to square one. I would like to wait from any body including “Johnson — who Commented on November 3, 2006 @ 3:52 pm” who can give me objective evidence that favors the tenets of Astrology. Till that time I am your pal; personally it looks to me that we shall keep as pals forever. Let me share a secret with you – shhhhh; last year I passed a ‘Graduate Diploma in Vedic Astrology’ with honors (but I am skeptic to use it, and believe me I have never looked in to my own horoscope). I am sure you have read (whatsoever, for or against) about the Western Astrology only, and probably not Vedic Astrology. So, let me feel one-sidedly (hic!) that ‘Vedic Astrology’ doest work (hic,hic); (! Please don’t ask me evidence this time! [ ):>( ]; I have passed a Diploma (after all !!) [ (:>() ]; at least till the time you have evidences against (!) [ |:>|| ].
Dear Austin, this is the lighter side of me in a late afternoon after a busy schedules of my patients. I enjoyed writing to you. I hope I have not beaten around the bushes. But, let me tell you I believe in Astrology only as much exactly as you believe in. That’s right?
Sincerely (and of course always skeptically),
Yours,
Dhan
I have reasonable proof. I have one of those 366 Astrology birthday profile books and I conducted my own study in which I found a willing participant, grabbed 5 paragraphs from 5 different birthday descriptions (one of which was secretly the analysis corresponding to the participant’s birthday), and asked the person to identify the one that described him or her. of the 7 people that participated, all of them identified the one matching his or her birthday as the one that described him or her. if you need proof I urge you to conduct the same test with Goldschneider’s book.
Not even close. That just means you found 7 people who liked what the paragraph described. You could have handed everyone the same paragraph and get the same result. People like to believe nice things about themselves. People also like to think that something or someone is in control of the chaos of their lives.
“I found a willing participant, grabbed 5 paragraphs from 5 different birthday descriptions”
Were all of the participants complete strangers to you? Did you choose the paragraphs completely at random, armed only with the birthdays of the participants and no first hand experience of their personalities? Were the participants in isolation when they were sitting and choosing the paragraphs, or were you with them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans
Astrology believers.
I’d like to say you are either just gullible or certifiable.
I don’t have proof either way. I don’t even know you. As I move in intelligent circles it is likely that I never will. Still doesn’t stop me having a belief unfounded by verifiable evidence.
tomedgar@halenet.com.au
if you need proof I urge you to conduct the same test with Goldschneider’s book. Donald on October 15, 2008 at 10:22 pm
We can run such a test right here, right now.
What’s your birthday, Don?
‘Planets and astral bodies have stable, predictable and coherent effects (in spatio-temporal domain) on the human beings,’
Gravity is neither stable nor predictable when looked at in its entirety. For example try typing in ‘The Three Body Problem’ into google.
‘while the gravitational fields of the doctors, nurses etc and the electromagnetic fields produced by the T.V. and other gadgets are non-coherent and random canceling their respective effects in the time and space domain.’
Gravity doesn’t cancel, the gravitational effects of bodies don’t superimpose detstructively. Also random EM fields don’t cancel each other out, indeed for complete destructive interference the fields would have to be exactly in phase and of the same magnitude (though opposite orientation).
Nicely said, K.
DONALD SAID:
“I have reasonable proof. I have one of those 366 Astrology birthday profile books and I conducted my own study in which I found a willing participant, grabbed 5 paragraphs from 5 different birthday descriptions (one of which was secretly the analysis corresponding to the participant’s birthday), and asked the person to identify the one that described him or her. of the 7 people that participated, all of them identified the one matching his or her birthday as the one that described him or her. if you need proof I urge you to conduct the same test with Goldschneider’s book.”
Anyone with a basic grasp of logic can see that, even if this test were scientifically sound (which it isn’t), it doesn’t provide one iota of evidence for Astrology. At the most it suggests that being born in a certain month of the year might have an effect on someone’s persona. There are many time-of-year dependent variables affecting a newborn’s environment that are far more significant than the effect that planets/stars have.
The simple fact of the matter is that Astrology has been scientifically tested time and time again, and the conclusion is that it is complete and utter fantasy. There is no reason to believe in it. People find it hard to be proven wrong, so it’s understandable that there is resistance to the FACT that astrology is false… but I think it’s time for humanity to grow up and stop believeing fairy stories (such as Astrology, Religion, Ghosts etc…).
DAHN JANGID said:
“…So, if there is no proof for Astrology there none against too.”
It is probably impossible to prove that there are no notiecable effects on persona of the moon, planets and stars.doesn’t exist. It is extremely easy, however, to scientifically show that Astrology is absolutely useless, and doesn’t not realte to reality at all.
Reference: http://www.skepsis.nl/astrot.html
Noteworthy paragraph:
“If astrology really works, it should be possible to design a test that satisfies both scientists and astrologers. Unfortunately, astrologers never specify what kind of test would be acceptable to them. They argue that astrological research is very difficult because scientific methods are too crude, intrusive or mechanical. Apparently, the alleged astrological effects are so subtle and hard to detect that we may wonder how astrologers had ever been able to identify them.”
In other words, Astrologers are full of it.
– Matt
responding to Matt:
It seems to me that conection of science (astronomy) and astrology is like connection of science and philosophy. Science or sciences explore parts of reality, while astrology and philosophy explore broader picture. So, as their methods are different, they cannot be prooven by methods of the opposite one.
Like in astrology, lets say moon in aries cannot say much, niether can moon in aries in the seventh house, but moon in aries in the sevent house trigon with mercury in the 5th house along with other aspects can.
So what am i saying is that signs, planets and houses in astrology are arheotypes and they cannont make by them selves anything meaniful but together they can.
In scinece on the contrary, each science studies “small” aries of world, and precise they get, the better. But using science to comperhend, gets us troubels. Like altough we get broader with law of relativity it still doesnt applay for entire universe.
Science uses egsistent laws to grasp the one yet to be explore, but doing that we can never get to the priniple law, only to principle law of the case.
So thats why poetry, music, astology is an art, and mathematics, biology, ect. sciences.
They cannot be used to descibe one another, becacuse by doing that they denounce first principle of the other.
sorry for bad english.
I have heard the theory of the torsion field explains the idea of how the energy is created and how it works for astrology. I’m not a physicist so it’s hard for me to actually decide if this is a credible form of physics. If you know anything about it and would like to dis it accordingly, i am interested in hearing it. Quantum Physics seems to be poking itself into the main stream consciousness of scientific thought and is starting to mix with some formerly brushed away ideas. There are forces not acknowledged by the western scientific thought process that although can not be proved by anything known of at this time have been embedded in the cultures of humans for thousands of years. Look back to the Mayans and they had very simalure ideas of the governing forces the planets have on our world. Hasn’t anyone else seen the beautifully holistic principles of our universe? Could the cells working for the body lay as signs of proof that the universe may act as a single consciousness? These seemingly higher dimensional harmonies that present themselves in all forms of science , can’t they shine some light of validation to the idea that the cosmos might have that kind of affect of the soul of an individual?
Ah, the old… it’s beautiful/complicated/works perfectly bit. Haven’t seen that here in weeks.
Reality shows that kids in a grade or level of sports who are born earliest in that bracket – ie those who are older, bigger, and stronger – outperform those in the bracket who are younger, smaller, and weaker.
So yes, there ARE qualities shared by people born in different times of the year. They have nothing to do with magic.
The simple and stupid want to see this as evidence of validity for astrology. Anyone with half a brain who hasn’t been brainwashed into religion by his parents can objectively study such differences, and find they have a logical, and natural, explanation.
This is part of why religious people deserve pity.
jon (15). Look up torsion theory scam. You will see abundant evedicence that it was a scam by Russian pseudoscientists and charlatans.
Please do not confuse it with the torsion theory that Einstein was involved with, which had absolutely no connection with the paranormal.
My comment (18). evidence is misspelled, forgot to edit before sending. Sorry.
jon (15). Yes, Quantum Physics does seem to be poking itself into the main stream consciousness of scientific thought; at least 1/3 of the U S economy is based on Quantum Mechanics, and there would be no global economy without it (click on A Brief History of Quantum Mechanics, by Klepner and Jackiw). However, Quantum Mechanics is NOT beginning to mix with some brushed away ideas.
“Seems to be poking” is an understatement, if one has ever been made.
jon (15). When you used the term quantum physics, I assumed you were using it as an equivalent of quantum mechanics. In case you were not, I will make a correction. Quantum physics is composed of two (2) parts 1. quantum mechanics and 2. quantum field theory.
ok, but can i at least see some retort to the more overall point i was trying to make?
Jon (22). I would reply to the more overall point that you were trying to make, if I understood what it is. I suppose I am a little dense; please enlighten me.
Astrology studies the science of cicles of planets and stars… and are related to time/movements/cicles. One round of the earth around the sun is an 1 HZ (cicle) and the combined effects of the cicles of all the planets is what astrology studies (the effects on our conciousnes), astrology has been prostituted to predict events, this is not its real function.
Astronomy studies the fysical planets in the sky, radiations, and what chemicals are the plantets made of etc… in old times the to sciences where one cience, but the kings/faraos wanted to now their future and the Astrolgers/astronomers in fear of their lives prostituted their once sacred science of cicles of the cosmos and how these afected our conciousnes.
There are tre movements that are central to astrology:
1- the earth around the sun (zodiac or mental cicle)
2- Moon around the earth (lunar cicle, or emotional)
3- Rotation of the eart (house system or the fysical cicle)
Esoteric Astrologer/astromomer (24). Would you please define “astromomer” for me?
Are we expected to give credence to #24 when his short submission contained 19 misspelled words.
Better we spend time with more intellignet matters.
Are we expected to give credence to #24 when his short submission contained 19 misspelled words.
Better we spend time with more intelligent matters.
Intellignet/intelligent. See it is easy using spell check even for typos.
EA/a (24). “Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped.” – Elbert Hubbard
As he is esoteric I can understand why it should be secret unto himself.
Is it really someone with weird ideas or another “Friend” writing ironically and emphasising the usual lack of education associated with these “Crazies”?
That a planetary system billions of miles away can influence individuals personalities on another minor planet really is ridiculous.
Another area allied to such childishness is numerology. I pointed out to one charlatan in this area. According to his interpretation if my first name Thomas had been written in the Germanic without the h then accordingly my whole life would be different. Also as I was born in Europe and lived most of my life in the Antipodies there is the one day difference another change in my life ?
First, gravity is an effect, not a force (google EMRP Gravity – read Blaze Research think-tank report which debunks Einstein’s special relativity.
Second, see myPersonology.com for a detailed analysis of personality traits based on date of birth. This material compiled by Gary Goldschneider is derived from a study of the lifestories 20,000 real people.
Third, realize that the electromagnetic radiation pressure signature (frequency) driving through us all the time changes as the planets move around us. We experience a cyclical cycle that repeats its pattern annually and also a different cyclical pattern that repeats every 18.6 years.
Fourth, realize there is an energy state inflection point the moment a baby takes its first breath of oxygen. This extra energy lights up the child’s brain like a computer turning on. At this moment, synapses fire at full volume for the first time. These signals will form their permanent pathway at this moment (in the unique crucible of background electro-magnetic radiation pressure). I hypothesize that the relative timing of these pathways result in the predictable personality traits that Gary Goldschneider has recorded in over 3,600 pages of detailed and balanced observations.
Fifth, astrology is like a hand-held telescope – it gives an overly broad interpretation of what is going on, but it is generally correct in an opaque and only slightly useful way. What Gary Goldschneider (Yale Psychology/Medicine) has done is to put a complete scientific foundation under the Personology theories of the late Dr. Henry Murray (Harvard Professor Emeritus).
Sixth, Personology empiracly identifies 48 different personality types born on any of 366 days, or 17,568 distinct personalities. Astrology has only 12. This is why Personology is to Astrology as the Hand-Held telescope is to the Hubble.
Tom Rezek
President
Circular Reference LLC
myPersonology.com
Pass what ever you are smoking on the left hand side.
Tom, WHICH astrology has only twelve? Western and Chinese both have twelve, but on different scales. Chinese has another set for time of day and what not.
As for the 6th item, that should mean that about 341,530 would share the same personality. Did you even think about this before you posted it?
gravity is an effect, not a force
OK, when someone who nearly flunked 9th grade physical science can tell you that you don’t understand basic concepts in physics, you’ve got a problem.
Well, you could test that theory by jumping off the nearest high-rise building … but that would not be an ethical suggestion to make, so I withdraw it on the grounds that you might be gullible enough to try it.
So, at your suggestion, I went a-Googling for a definition of “force.”
“[In physics], the influence that produces a change in a physical quantity…”
Gravity does indeed produce changes in physical quantities: changes in position, kinetic energy, probably lots of other stuff. We can deduce the existence of gravity because it produces effects, not because it is one. Gravity meets the basic definition of a force.
It seems to me that you’ve got it backwards, your SuperSpecial Think Tank Report to the contrary.
Astrology reminds me of religion. I.e – making completely irrational and unjustified claims about the cosmos. I mean come on, even as a kid i didn’t believe in this. I suppose i have my parents to thank for teaching me how to think critically. It could be considered psychopathic to believe that a movement of a certain planet can influence the future events in the life of a living organism on another planet.
@ Tom Rezek.
Tom, psychobabble does not become true when one includes scientific sounding words into the mix.
You are using words in ways that are at best ambiguous. “the electromagnetic radiation pressure signature (frequency)” is just something someone, probably you, made up.
I would love to see your MRI evidence for this or any evidence at all that you could provide.
My belief is that you cannot provide even a shred of evidence for what you are trying to sell. Not a shred.
Prove me wrong, you’ll win a Nobel prize if you can.
Many years ago, in the Far and Middle East when confronted by beggars and persistent sales people I would reply in Gibberish. Always worked, although they often had an understanding of a dozen languages it turned them off.
That pseudo scientific gibberish presented as proof of astrology doesn’t even take into account the planets whose light is still arriving although the planets may have been extinct for thousands to millions of years.
I’ll guarantee if any planetary influence actually reaches the Earth it is more than adequately negated by the Sun, Moon or even Jupiter.
Give me a break. We all know God/Allah/Vishnu et al attend every birth and place their “Kismet” on each and every baby.
Many years ago, in the Far and Middle East when confronted by beggars and persistent sales people I would reply in Gibberish. Always worked, although they often had an understanding of a dozen languages it turned them off. — Tom Edgar on November 3, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Now that is laugh-out-loud funny.
I do have to add one little bit and it doesn’t dive in esoteric mumbo jumbo.
Has anyone ever seen a seriously negative “Astrology” reading? From my experience everyone has a fabulous fear free future.
Now all those who died in the Tsunami/Earthquakes/ Volcanic eruptions?American bombings/ collectively in their thousands. Are we to believe they were all born (died) under the same astral influences? How is it that all those born on the exact same moment don’t share in the Lottery winners luck?
How is it that a twin dies leaving the other to live. Oh! one was a minute behind, or ahead? How is it these naif people actually make adulthood without becoming adult?
Hey Tom Rezek, I checked out the site you had posted and I have to say to everyone here that the system they use works better than simple astrology( at least western astrology)
and your comments on the electromagnetic radiation pressure signature are quite correct, and to the people on this page need to do some serious reading, because they have never done much in the way of thinking if they haven’t come across these ideas before, the best description for describing gravity that i’ve heard is to compare it the ” venturi effect, as in when two boats are moving in the same direction( in the water) and move together so the sides of the boats touch and as long as they move in the same diretion and at the same speed, they won’t seperate, now of course most here won’t get this, but that just shows you folks that you have much to learn.
and to your fourth point, most here are caught up in the idea that life starts at conception, which by looking simply at the physiology of the fetus is not true, and I’m sorry folks, the right to lifers lie to you about that, they may not relize that , but they are, fetuses don’t breath, there is a pulse motion of the abdomen that moves blood from the umbilcle into the fetus and also from the fetus into the umbilicle, the reason for this is that the mothers blood pressure is not enough to get the blood to move to the fetus aand then back to the mather, physiological facts, not belief. every organ in your body has some of the same pulse, does that mean your organs are sperate entities? NO it doesn’t!
life begins when the fetus leaves the mother and takes its first breath and becomes a BABY.
I do have to say that for an atheist site, you folks waste alot of time holding onto the concepts of bible thumpers, you don’t seem to get the idea that those that base life on a belief have very little time for logic and reality, so that most of what they think is nonsense, you can’t find reality by believing in it, you have to KNOW what is real and not real, and the simple way to accomplish this is not to believe! what is real can be proved with logic, if you have to use emotion, its not real.
i dont even know why u guys argue about such things…dont u hav better things to do?? anyone can believe anything they want to believe…..i guess truth is relative
#40
What you don’t seem to understand is that those believers are adamant that non believers should conform to their ideologies and if not will, and often are,denied equal opportunities in all walks of life.
It really is a problem in the U S A whilst in more enlightened western communities it has long been a non event. I know of no advanced nation that has the intensity of antipathy towards non believers that prevails in “America”..
@Dave
“I do have to say that for an atheist site, you folks waste alot of time holding onto the concepts of bible thumpers”
I don’t think we waste time, we engage in argument with the “bible thumpers”. If we don’t then who else will? Do you seriously want irrational and unjustified beliefs to spread like a virus, unchecked by reason?
” Johnson says:
I’m sorry but Astrology has already been established as a Science through computer correlations of signs with general career choices.”
I’m sorry, but I’d need to see more proof of this than simply your statement. Nice attempt at humour though. If it helps, I’m a Gemini and I have a dual core processor so maybe you’re right after all.
I am an Aries, and it must be true, my kids think I’m a silly old goat, or is that scroat?
Come on Johnson show us one astrological sign that says you have been born a loser, your life will be full of woe, that no matter what you do you are destined, because of your birth date to be, a miserable bastard and full of misfortune.
One thing is certain no matter what time of day or place of birth or whatever sign. You die. Being born under the right star sign has NEVER dictated when, where or how.
The battlefields and oceans are full of bodies that died, suffered and were maimed with barely a single one with the same birth date. Only the same death date.
Science supports theories and hypotheses. It does not “prove”. Proof is a legal or religious concept.