Pharaoh's Chariots Found in Red Sea?
World Net Daily reports:
[O]thers ... are not so sure what is being viewed underwater are the remnants of the great chase and urge extreme caution regarding the unsubstantiated claims. "All kinds of people are finding coral and calling it chariot parts," says Richard Rives, president of Wyatt Archaeological Research in Tennessee. "It's most likely coral covered with coral. ... Opportunists are combining false things with the true things that are found. These people are making it up as they go to be TV stars."
[Mary Nell] cites Ron's discovery of a wheel hub that he brought to the surface in the late 1970s as proof. The hub had the remains of eight spokes radiating outward and was examined by Nassif Mohammed Hassan, director of Antiquities in Cairo. Hassan declared it to be from the 18th Dynasty of ancient Egypt, explaining the eight-spoked wheel was used only during that dynasty around 1400 B.C. Curiously, no one can account for the precise whereabouts of that eight-spoked wheel today, though Hassan is on videotape stating his conclusion regarding authenticity.
It sounds like people are seeing what they want to see - over a large expanse of sea, it's not surprising that they might discover a couple of places where there is a pattern that matches what they are looking for. Of course such "discoveries" will make someone a star - not just on TV, though. It will also make them a star on the evangelical Christian lecture circuit, complete with a book and numerous interviews and magazine article. These discoveries tell people what they want to hear about the historicity of the Bible, and many evangelical Christians are quite happy to spend lots of money to confirm what they already believe. Of course, they aren't acting any different from normal people here, but they have a heavy emotional investment in their religion so they have strong motivations to find "evidence," any evidence,' to confirm things for them.
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it looks more like a case of an atheist not seeing what he doesnt want to see, it doesnt take stevie wonder to see that thats not coral upon coral, those are wheels,BUT if I was a person that didnt want to see that OR beleive anything biblical was true, Id think it was a bunk too,but in the same,I fire this to you, I go by my faith in God and I know hes there, thats what I believe,but can you prove that there is no God? can you prove that your existance is to get up in the morning and die in the evening without reason?
Amen Tommy.
I like how the atheist/agnostic writer only selected portions of the article to show us that fed his own belief.
Tell me, how does it feel to knowingly delute yourself? How can you knowingly stay in denial and believe something that you just read evidence to the contrary?
I guess the atheist/agnostic is right: you see what you want to see.
Autsin, what I don’t understand is why you would take Rives quote and conclude then that there has never been evidence of chariots. Truth is on the Wyatt Archeological Research website http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm , they claim there are wheels and evidence and they continue to claim evidence on the path taken by the Israelites across the sea.
Rives’ quote was referring to Peter Elmer’s claim. Rives is refuting Elmer’s claim not that the exodus and parting of the sea happened. Rives’ organization believes there is evidence.
Austin, please get your facts straight before printing it as truth.
I believe that I do have all the facts straight. If you disagree, please point to a single statement I have made which is false — something I’ve actually written, not your own misinterpretation of what I’ve written. If you can’t, would you kindly retract your accusation here?
Of course it could (& I believe is) be true. Don’t we believe in dinosaurs, altho, no one in written history has seen them. We only have the fossils, etc. to confirm our belief in a creature that has been extinct for millions of years. If this was some agnostic belief. people would be jumping on the “wagon”! Of course, there is a God. Too many unexplainable things in the world that could only be made by God.
Like what, for example?
As Christians we are not required to force anyone to believe in God, only to live as Jesus would live thereby living an example so that others might follow suit. If Austin chooses to ignore or denounce the evidence, that is his choice. Just because he says it isn’t so doesn’t mean that Christians should question their faith. After all that is what faith is all about. Have faith in the unseen and the unproven and enjoy a blessed existence.
If there is evidence, please provide it and Austin, myself, and many other atheists will convert. Until such time, we see no reason to.
Obviously for something to pass as evidence it must adhere to a few rules: It must be logical, it must be possible/probable, it must be irrefutable, God must be the only explanation(not simply for you, it must be the only possible explanation. The eye/life have perfectly satisfactory explanations.),… if there are any other “rules”, feel free to add them.
Lee
-sorry if the html doesn’t work.-
“Don’t we believe in dinosaurs, altho, no one in written history has seen them.”
Audrey,
Do you believe in you car? Or is it just there whether you believe in it or not?
Just because you can’t explain why there is a sock missing a match, doesn’t mean a gremlin stole it. Sometimes… there are rational/non-idiotic explanations for why things happen. Science knows it is incomplete, but it seeks only the truth, not what makes us feel better.
Also, learn how to spell and punctuate.
Suckers are created and maintained by crooks. The average human being stops developing emotionally or intellectually at age 14
Saw a program on the History Channel not long ago about natural explanations to biblical stories. One of the stories was about the Red Sea and it stated there was a problem in translation; it should have been the Reed Sea, not the Red Sea. What does that do to the chariot finding?!!
Again, and try to follow along: Archaeological findings do not “prove” that the stories in the Bible are true. There is plenty of archaeological evidence of the Civil War, plantations, slavery, the burning of Atlanta, etc, but that does not mean Gone With the Wind is a true story or that Scarlett O’Hara was a real person.
Jay, I think you misunderstood my comment. If, in fact, it was the Reed Sea instead of the Red Sea, then finding chariots in the Red Sea does not substantiate the biblical story. Check with the History Channel about that story. It was very interesting. It gave natural causes for stories that have been recorded in the bible as divinely orchestrated. Would be great for christians to see as it pretty much puts the literal interpretation of the bible to the test. Would someone please tell me how christians can legitimize their faith in a book with so many inconsistencies and so many stories that modernity and science have proven to be ignorant interpretations?!!
You people have nothing better to do than attack the truth of the bible. You are filled with such hatred, why do you hate God? Did you not get any love as children? And don’t give me that crap about “I can’t hate something I don’t believe in”. You all believe in God, Paul says in the bible the nature proves God exist so that you are all without exuse. You all know you are going to hell. So when you are burning in hell, don’t cry to me because that is what you get for persecuting God’s people.
Warrior:
It’s very easy & credible for us to say that we do not believe in something that doesn’t exist. The burden of proof is with those who say they believe in something with no evidence behind it at all and a fictional book describing it. I don’t hate anyone. I respect a person’s right to believe anything they want. I just don’t know why they can’t be honest about the lack of legitimacy of it all. Why do they insist on pushing that fairy tale upon others as absolute fact? If you want to believe in something, fine. Just be honest about it all. You’re the one in denial here. Also, I think it’s more honorable to accept someone and their beliefs than it is to condemn someone to “hell” or whatever for them not joining your belief system. You’re awful hot under the collar for someone so sure of themselves. Not showing a lot of self assurance. Also not showing much “christian” behavior.
One more thing, Warrior – Who is persecuting you?! You get onto an agnostic/atheist blog and get all bent out of shape because others on that blog don’t agree with you?!! If you don’t want to hear disagreement with your dogma, don’t push that dogma on others you know don’t buy it. Also, you get more flies with honey than vinegar. If you didn’t have doubts, you wouldn’t get so emotionally invested in what others think and say.
What is unexplainable today may be explainable tomorrow.
Hey Audrey Summers, just because we can’t explain something does not mean a god did it. We used to think the world was flat didn’t we? It would be hubris to think that we can know everything about the universe and explain it as god did it.
Warrior for Christ, criticizing does not equal hate. What I hear coming from you resembles hate. I don’t hate you I fear you. I fear your authoritarian posturing combined with your screen name and your extreme bigotry. Your thinking is no different from that of authoritarian rulers of history that managed to oppress and kill millions that were different. I fear the way you think. You scare the crap out of me.
The more I study the Bible, the more my faith is strengthened. I would encourage anyone to read it and try to find errors. I am going to Israel in June to see the places I have been reading about. The Bible is God’s love letter to us; He sent Jesus to come down to live among us and be the ultimate sacrifice for you and me. Jesus changed my life. I went to church and did all the rituals but was not a changed soul until I read and understood John 3:16, Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23. No one can get to heaven on their own merit – EVERYONE IS A SINNER.
If Jesus was here in the flesh, he would be blogging with you because he loves you. He wants everyone to know that he is the only one that can be our advocate at the gates of heaven and say, “let them in, I know them”.
To Changed Forever:
I am pleased you have a faith that makes you so happy, in all honesty I am. I do not personally believe in what you say but have nothing against you believing it. However, I can’t help but take some exception to your talking of how everyone is a sinner and how only Jesus can save us. This goes beyond being happy with own faith and stretches into impinging on other people’s.
I suppose perhaps you would argue that you genuinly feel you have a moral duty to try and ’save’ us from eternity in hell. However before you do, look more closely at why you feel you need to ‘help’ us, look at the contradictions that are rife in the beliefs of those who say God is love whilst simultaneously saying that anyone who doesn’t do what the Bible apparently says they should will be tortured for eternity.
Believe what you like, but think carefully before telling others what will happen to them.
Does anyone here really think that Audrey Summers, Lori, or changed forever will ever return to defend their statements? I’ve noticed that others like them rarely do.
I do think it was silly of urban legend.com to not have a non-biased person/expert try to uncover the truth about this info. I would expect to see someone with a science background or archeology trying to work with this information. True or not? I’ll go to other sources to find out…not here to argue religion–want to know more facts:)
It is amazing to me that so many of you (not all) have so much fear and hatred toward those who believe in God and the Bible. As someone who claims to be a follower of Jesus, It does help me validate things in the bible to see discoveries that could be historical. I am a realist too and know that the facts are not conclusive on these findings. To believe in a loving God is not a bad thing. When I read things like this it makes me feel sad that True Christians who love without judging are lumped into a stereotypical mass of ideological fools who drink koolade every Sunday. Not all Christians are racist bigots. Just like not all Muslims are terrorists. We love and accept everyone. I don’t need archaeological findings to validate my beliefs. Jesus said…” let those that have ears to hear..listen.” I enjoy listening to your views on the bible then I know how to pray for you. It is not Christians jobs to prove the existence of God. He reveals Himself all the time..you just have to look and listen. Know that I am not judging any of you. I hope you all find your way and don’t end up separated from God forever. Peace be with you all!
Feel free to point to some examples that justify this accusation.
Why not?
Does this mean that you don’t care if the scientific evidence supports or opposes your beliefs?
It is if they publicly proclaim that their god exists.
If I said that I hope you find your way an don’t end up separated from reason forever, would you find that offensive?
If so, then have you ever considered that what you said might be treated as offensive? Have you ever stopped to seriously consider how your words really sound to outsiders?
“have you ever considered that what you said might be treated as offensive?”
I don’t care how my words sound to men Austin, I care how they sound to God. It wasn’t too long ago that your atheist arrogence would have got you burned at the stake. Before all this “human rights” crap came along. We have no rights apart from doing God’s will and following Jesus. And continue spitting in God’s face and see what happens Austin… getting burned at the stake will come sooner or later, and if you don’t repent and it becomes later than sooner, you will burn at the divine stake forever. I for one want front row seats for your punishment Austin.
I do not hate anyone for his/her religion. I do get angry and oppose groups that try to restrict individual freedom. As a gay man I am not directly affected by abortion or birth control issues, but I am fiercely opposed to restriction of birth control. Christians have in fact tried to repress the religious rights of pagans
Dear Warrior for Christ,
I am seriously concerned for you. I think you will make God really angry by your intolerant and sadistic speech. Did you read anything in the Bible about forgiveness eg ‘Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”? And does it say anywhwere in the Bible that unbelievers should be ‘burned at the stake’.
Be afraid Warrior, be very afraid – you may go straight to hell fire and the honest atheists may well have a front row seat … unless you repent, ask Jesus for forgiveness and live the rest of your life promoting peace, harmony, love and respect for others as Jesus would have done.
I hope you will see
I fear dumb luck and just about everything else.
Dear Warrior for Christ,
All I can say is I hope you recover from you hate mongering and theistic delusion soon.
Unbeliever in all deities.
Dear Warrior for Christ,
Your writing betrays a serious anger issue. When you use words like “human rights crap,” it appears you are longing for the “good old days” when you could torture or kill those you didn’t like or whose beliefs offended you. Now, all you have are fantasies of your surrogate (God) doing the torturing for you. PLEASE get professional help before your viciousness explodes into violence. An honest difference of opinion among complete strangers should not result in such emotional outbursts. Your anger fairly seeps through my computer screen! If I were a Christian, I’d be afraid to sit next to you in church.
‘I don’t care how my words sound to men Austin, I care how they sound to God.’
Well like it or not Warrior you live in a world of men (using this as the general term for humainty, not males only) so you’d better start caring about what they think, because whilst the existance of god is disputable (and please rather than just saying its not, if you reply to this, actually give a REASON, though from your backward thinking that will be hard for you to do) the existance of men is not.
‘It wasn’t too long ago that your atheist arrogence would have got you burned at the stake.’
So all atheists are arrogant but people who claim to know exactly what an omnipitent and all-powerful being wants aren’t?
‘Before all this “human rights” crap came along. We have no rights apart from doing God’s will and following Jesus.’
You mean doing what religious officials said was god’s will.
‘And continue spitting in God’s face and see what happens Austin… getting burned at the stake will come sooner or later, and if you don’t repent and it becomes later than sooner, you will burn at the divine stake forever.’
You can’t spit in the face of something you don’t believe in. If we hated god rather than just didn’t believe him, why don’t we declare ourselves as antichrists or something like that?
‘I for one want front row seats for your punishment Austin.’
Has anyone told you that you’re a sadistic and sick person? By your description, god is nothing but a giant bully in the sky, so even if he does exist, why do what he wants? You need a serious attitude change Warrior, all this anger of yours doesn’t come from god, it comes from you. As Kali rightly said, (though not in these exact words) its time for you to stop hating and try to make the world a better place. Its nice to see people like Kali showing that not all christians are backward hate-mogerers like you. (Though I already knew this, I fear there are some atheists who don’t)
Warrior says
“I don’t care how my words sound to men Austin, I care how they sound to God. It wasn’t too long ago that your atheist arrogence would have got you burned at the stake. Before all this “human rights” crap came along. We have no rights apart from doing God’s will and following Jesus. And continue spitting in God’s face and see what happens Austin… getting burned at the stake will come sooner or later, and if you don’t repent and it becomes later than sooner, you will burn at the divine stake forever. I for one want front row seats for your punishment Austin.”
I’m not sure how to start…
This Warrior fellas post is so indicative of the collective annihilation of the human mind. This is nothing short of extremism. Having studied religions of the world, I can tell you that this individual has no concept behind the meaning of his “perceived” spirituality. It’s people that regard their “imagined” purpose as being more import than humanity that is one of the biggest challenges that faces the people of this beautiful planet.
I’m not sure if Warrior will understand:(
Fernando
there is a vacuum a big one at that in the very depth of our existence that people just would fill it up with anything that comes along
and as it were, God believing does not just come along it is stocked into the very air we take in….so many people still cannot explain where this air comes from
the quest and labour to get our daily bread drowns our entire being in a daily routine that automatically lazy the imagination…
the likes of Warrior, should be the least of our worries, this world for so many reason would continue to chunk more of his mode as long as the perpetuation of ignorance continues as a basis to guarantee for a few the domination of the many
We don’t have to murder anyone any more.
God and religious experience is located in the upper right quadrant of the brain.
I can offer counseling to “Warrior” and others if they are in Australia or alternatively direct them to some very experienced psychiatrists.
At this distance I can only say this person “Warrior” apparently, should be in an institution to protect others from his possible actions.
tomedgar@halenet.com.au
What confuses me about Warrior and the like is that they think we hate anyone or anything. i certainly don’t, i might make fun of it, but that’s a far cry from hating*. To me it suggests a delusion of persecution. They perceive any questioning of their book as an attack. Who’s more hateful, the atheist saying “those wheels could have been dumped there by any one of a million ships that sailed that sea” or the xian saying “You’re gonna burn in hell, y’all commie pinko atheists!”?
* Hmm, kinda reminds me of the muslims and the cartoon crisis. There’s a famous picture of a guy holding a sign that says “Behead those who insult islam”.
“We’re the religion of peace and we’ll kill you if you make fun of us!”
This would be funny if it weren’t so sad. All I can say about these flamers is to quote Rumi: “You can wake those who are sleeping, but no matter what you do, you cannot wake up those who are only pretending to sleep.” Unfortunately, history has shown time and again that a small number of extremists can hold entire nations hostage to their perverse delusions.
As an archaeologist I can say more, though I have not seen the show that mentions the chariot wheels. If they said nothing about site formation processes, then you have no idea how those wheels got to where they were found. Another good question to ask is, how high was sea level at the time those wheels are supposed to have been deposited? Probably more important to think about, though, is that shows like this are often made with the assumption that average people and not experts will be watching. I once saw a show on PBS about the archaeology of a part of the world I was doing my master’s thesis on. They went on and on about a theory that this civilization was destroyed by a volcano. The theory is quite sensational but also quite old (before C-14 dating was calibrated) and had been pretty well discredited in professional circles more than a decade before the show was made. Since then I have taken anything I see on educational television with a grain or two of salt.
You can’t possibly be seriously considering any “evidence” from Ron Wyatt, can you? He claims he’s found the second set of stone tablets on which the ten commandments were written, which he claimed to keep in his garage — he claims he found Noah’s ark, Noah’s farm, the Ark of the Covenant, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, the blood of Jesus, and so on…
Strangely, he’s never provided ANY evidence for any other archaeologists nor any other independant researchers.
If he is going to make such incredible claims, he must provide a great deal of evidence. He’s clearly never found anything! How could he get the human bone out of the Red Sea, but authorities (he claimed) stopped him from removing the wheel — then he claims he did remove the wheel, which nobody can find today. Of course, that it wasn’t covered in mud or coral is fishy.
Ultimately, this topic of discussion has not been proven one way or the other. For Christians, we do not need this proof anyway. Try not to let these antagonists get to you. Let it go.
You know, Some people do not believe in God. But He believes in everyone else. The reason why you cannot disprove or prove without a doubt the Bible is because it is BASED ON FAITH. Have faith in God, and He will manifest Himself in you, and PROVE TO YOU. that He Loves you. That is why blind atheist/agnostic/ whatever you guys are calling yourselves these days cannot see that. And it is just grinding at your gears isn’t it. You cannot stand the fact that maybe all the stuff you see when you open your eyes is not the result of rondomness. Is Mozart Randomness. Is the symmetry and Harmony of gravity random. Take this little experiment. Get a deck of cards, go upstairs, and just throw them off of the second floor. Now pick them up, and do the experiment again. Do all of the cards land in the exact same place, with the same cards facing up and down? No. that is randomness, yet you are using the basic fundamentals of nature that “exploaded and evolved the extremely ordered and symmetric universe” If God does not exist, how can you say that the same forces in nature that formed the stars and planets into perfect spheres with perfect order, cannot make a deck of cards begin to orbit eachother and evovle monkeys into people and fools into bigger fools?
You could say the same about any religion. So what reason is there to think that yours is better than any other religion?
The reason why you cannot disprove or prove without a doubt the Bible is because it is BASED ON FAITH.
Joshua, you would do well to truly think about the implications of such a statement. As Austin pointed out above, your justification of the bible through Faith is not exclusive to your religion. Any proposition can be justified by Faith because Faith itself is not inhibited by reason or evidence.
Faith does not help us discern the difference between truth and falsehood. In fact, your comment above is a good example of how Faith further clouds the issue.
Do you honestly think it is praiseworthy to hold to a belief *no matter what*?
My personal taste is for Big Brother.
Faith is just another word for no proof.
Joshua,
The way the cards fall isn’t random. It’s merely unpredictable. What makes cards fall this way or that is completely causal. The roll of a die is causal, it’s predictable by physics if you have enough information. The rate of spin is determined by the force of your hand, the bounce is determined the hardness of the surface, of the die and the velocity of the die. We use such system to simulate randomness because the result is unknowable/uncontrollable by the participants. It’s not luck, and not divine intervention.
Mozart(’s music) isn’t randomness. So what?
That’s the difference between a rational mind and an irrational mind. A rational mind can accept that somethings aren’t known, or immediately knowable, but doesn’t chalk it up to ghosts and goblins. Humanity didn’t understand lightning, so they invented gods and spirits. Now we understand electricity and how it works. No need for made up nonsense.
The universe expanded and planets are almost sperical due to gravity. Smaller bodies are not necessarily sperical because they do not have enough mass to generate gravity.
You cannot stand the fact that maybe all the stuff you see when you open your eyes is not the result of rondomness. Joshua on August 25, 2008 at 12:48 am
This is the kind of thing that theists say when they know next to nothing about atheism, still less about science, and least of all about spelling.
This proves nothing except there are remains of Egyptian chariots on the sea floor(if that’s what they are). There may be many explanations for this:
1. The sea level was lower, and this was once an fully exposed land shelf through the red sea. This would be a very strategic place to hold a battle.
2. Ships sank on the way somewhere else
3. Moses did part the sea. ( Note: I think modern religion has perverted the ideas of religion, and really has no claim to be correct based on this. If there is a god I am pretty sure he’s not happy with you and your judgmental dogma.)
4. They are simply coral that looks like a wheel.
In any case. The bible was written by man, or “translated” if you prefer. It’s been twisted and perverted by man to his own benefit and anyone still handing 10% to this perversion in my mind, isn’t paying attention.
I sit and wonder why so many people get fired up about science hasnt science contradicted itself so many times before. If science leads you to believe anything and ten years later it has been discredited by science. Why put your faith in science instead of Jesus Christ whoms life and death sound outlandish but never has been discreditd.
I sit and wonder why so many people get fired up about science hasnt science contradicted itself so many times before. If science leads you to believe anything and ten years later it has been discredited by science. — Jimmy Crow on October 22, 2008 at 4:36 am
You don’t say exactly what scientific beliefs you have in mind, so I guess you’re thinking of scientific fads like the germ theory of disease, antibiotic medicines, municipal water systems, sewage treatment, and so on. Boy, remember those long-ago days when we drank clean water and avoided contact with our own poop, just because those nutty scientists told us to?
Why put your faith in science instead of Jesus Christ whoms life and death sound outlandish but never has been discreditd. — Jimmy Crow on October 22, 2008 at 4:36 am
This statement betrays an ignorance of the history of religion that is almost as complete as your ignorance of science. Of your command of the written word, let us not even speak.
Sir,
Kindly provide your life’s purpose and your specific, well-documented, scientifically proven, logical proof that God does not exist. Anything else is, shall we say, faith?
Regards,
Rob
Sir,
Jesus said of those who will never listen to his offer of FREE forgiveness of their sins (per as God visiting Earth as a human being and placing himself on a cross as payment for all of man’s sins)…
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
You discount everything you cannot evidence in some form, therefore you show yourself as blind; scientists and discoverers initially searched for facts. They did not say, “It does not exist until I [fill in the blank]. Instead, they simply explored and noted what they found.
It seems you therefore must not explore or seek discovery, other than what someone else has already found and documented. What then have you discovered that makes you an authority of anything?
The Earth and all plant, animal and human life in it, the direct placement of the Moon, Earth and Sun to provide the perfect balance of light/heat. Please explain how this happened?
The fact that the universe cannot be measured, for it has no end that can be proven… please explain so we can understand your wisdom?
You might very likely conclude the Earth is flat (as was the “fact” for hundreds of years before, with people even being killed for believing otherwise), yet Job stated (in a book PROVEN, with many copies, to exist long before man had ANY possibility of knowing the Earth was round), “He spreads the skies over unformed space, hangs the earth out in empty space.”
What is your explanation for this factual information?
The bottom line is this; you write this blog, waste your time and mine, tell everyone else to provide you with ‘proof’, but you provide nothing in return. Does this about sum up your thought process?
The clear ‘fact’ is this also; you have know interest in discovery or exploration. It is like someone saying to you, “there is water over this hill!” Yet you respond, “Prove it!”. The reply, “Come over here and see for yourself!” You say, “No, bring it to me!” They say, “No, you get your own water!”
Jesus said, “Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
You have the Bible, plenty of archaeology about numerous civliations, thousands or hundreds of thousands of facts surrounding history (i.e. Romans, Israel, Egypt, Greeks, Persions, etc).
Based strictly on facts, if you do not believe that Jesus existed (for example), then you must conclude Ceasar, Alexander and others did not as well. Why? Because there is enough proof that ALL of them existed.
If then, Jesus DID exist, WHY do you not apply your human intelligence to exploration and discovery? Why do you limit yourself? Worst of all, THINK seriously…. what if you are wrong?
My friend, as a 25 year Christian with all types of trials and sufferings, I have learned much about the living God. Rest assured, I do not every wish anyone to go to Hell forever.
Let your common sense and curiosity kick in… just as you drive to work thinking you will get there (but many don’t every day), you already live in faith daily. In fact, you have NO idea what could happen to you on any given day, correct?
So reverse your faith, you trust there is no God now, right? Then why not take a step of faith and ask him yourself, “God, if you exist and are the Creator, please reveal youself to me.”
Please note: God will never respond to a game player (i.e. if you are God, change my car into gold!). He will only reveal Himself to the person who is serious in their quest to have a relationship with God. That person who really wants to know God exists.
If you cannot overcome your own reluctance, no one else can. Just as with Adam and Eve, it is your OWN choice. That is the mystery of free will.
I pray God will reach out and save you, doing whatever is necessary to save your soul…
Rob
How is it any of your business?
The burden of proof lies with those making the claim — i.e., the theist.
Thanks for that admission on behalf of your position.
Since people are required to hold certain beliefs and attitudes, forgiveness is not free. So your claim is a lie.
That’s a pretty bold claim to make about a person you don’t know and have never met.
Gravity.
I’m not aware of it having been proved that the universe is incapable of being measures. Please cite your sources.
I’ve provided quite a lot on this site. Tell me, how much exactly have you read that has allowed you to draw your conclusion?
I doubt you’ve read very much here; if you had, you’d realize that I’ve been a Christian and therefore have, according to your analogy, been on the other side of the hill already.
Feel free to show how the evidence for the existence of Jesus is of the same quality as that for the others.
Pascal’s Wager, an apologetics argument for people who don’t think very seriously.
Since you must believe that nothing could stop your god from reaching me if it really wanted to, then you must conclude that if it hasn’t happened yet, it must be because you god hasn’t wanted it to happen yet. Ergo, praying for it to happen means praying for the occurrence of an event your god doesn’t want. Isn’t that a sin?
To the God fearing people. Don’t cast your pearls before swine, it is a waste of your time. Wipe the dust off your feet and continue to spread the Gospel as God intended. The harvest is great and the workers are few!
“Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm.” – Winston Churchill -
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” – John 3:16 -
Austin…when you say that gravity is responsible for the PERFECT alignment of the sun moon stars and planets, where did gravity come from. Did air decide to become gravity or was it an atom or amoeba? Also, the human body and how everything works in it…it is awesome and to say it is an accident is rather naive in my opinion. Also, this computer im typing on…did it just come together…definately not. Someone put it together. All i ask you is to try to disprove the Christian faith and the Bible because many have tried zero have succeeded and many have been saved because the could not disprove it.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that gravity is responsible for a “perfect” alignment — it’s just responsible for the alignment of objects in our solar system. The alignment isn’t perfect, but rather chaotic and may spin out of control at any time.
Gravity comes from matter. Matter has mass and mass is responsible for gravity.
None of the above. You don’t seem to know much about basic physics.
Who says it is an “accident”?
And since our bodies differ from computers, this helps us say that we evolved naturally.
The burden of proof lies entirely with those making claims, not with those listening. You claim that your religion and holy book are “true” in some fashion, so the burden is entirely yours to explain exactly what your position is and to support it. If you cannot, you have no right to expect others to believe you.
The only reason to ask others to disprove a position you won’t even explain is to avoid this basic responsibility — perhaps because you know you can’t shoulder it.
all i ask is that you tell me why every single person who has tried to disprove or discredit the bible have not succeeded
Another question…you say mass is responsible for gravity…what is responsible for mass?
austin…have you read the bible?
How do you know they haven’t?
I already answered that.
Several times. Several translations. In a couple of different languages.
ok since matter has mass and mass is responsible for gravity then what is responsible for matter? Also, you mean to tell me that the way our body works just happened to work the awesome way it does. Also i would like you to tell me your theory of how we all came into existence.
The Big Bang.
No, the phrase “just happened to work that way” is another way of saying “accident.” Our bodies evolved to adapt to our environment; ergo, they work well in our environment.
I don’t have my own “theory” of how we came into existence any more than I have my own theory about the origin of earthquakes and clouds. I accept the fruits of scientific research on these matters, as any rational adult would.
The “big bang”….so tell me this…what caused the “big bang?” If we evolve to adapt to our environment, why after so long do we still die of the same things or get sick from the same things we used to? And we do still get sick from the same things we used to because we have to get vaccinated to keep from getting sick. We don’t evolve. We have been the same since God created human beings. The sunrise holds so much beauty and you still say there is not a supreme being. What other proof do you need? If I am right and you are wrong, what do you have to lose? Eternity. If you are right and I am wrong what have I lost? Maybe 80 years give or take a few. Who has the most to loose here?
The best current research suggests that there was no cause.
You are still falsely assuming our bodies are perfect. Successful adaptation merely requires that one live long enough to reproduce sufficiently, not that one live forever or be completely free from disease. After all, bacteria and viruses have also evolved to adapt to us.
Hint: bacteria and viruses also evolve, which means they evolve ways to survive our attempts to stop them. Curious that you would use a good example of evolution in action as if it were a reason to doubt evolution.
Prove it.
Prove it.
Please support your implicit assertion that beauty somehow demonstrates the existence of a “supreme being.”
How about proof that actually links the premise with the conclusion?
Pascal’s Wager, quite possibly the most intellectually and morally bankrupt of all arguments which apologists have to offer. What’s worse, you’re offering the most simplistic and unreasonable form of this argument. If you’re going to try to offer an argument to justify belief in your god, don’t you think you should research it a bit in order to present it in its best form and be able to address the most common challenges?
there was no cause of the big bang…that’s the funniest thing i have heard all week. The big bang happened but there is no cause of it, that right there is proof of itself that the big bang theory is a dead end road. How does someone as intelligent as you believe that something happened but nothing caused it to happened. For there to be an effect there has to be a cause. You believe something as far fetched as that but you cant believe something so simple as a supreme being that is responsible for the creation of the universe.In regards to the earth and the universe to say the least the cause is that God spoke it into existance. We had to start from somewhere, God is that somewhere. It is the only logical explanation. Any other explanation leads to something happening but no one can explain what caused that something to happen. I feel for you and pray for you that your eyes will be opened before it is too late. Satan will continue to blind you by these ridiculous theories.
Personal amusement and incredulity isn’t much of a counter-argument.
Then I’m sure you can explain where physicists have gone wrong.
In our universe, yes. That’s required by the context of space, time, and natural laws. However, the Big Bang did not occur in the context of our space, time, and natural laws. The same constraints did not apply.
For there to be “cause and effect,” you must have time. However, the Big Bang did not occur in time — there was no “time before” the universe any more than there is a “to the left of” the universe.
Simple, eh? OK, demonstrate that your god is “simple.”
Anyway, there is empirical and mathematical support for the Big Bang model of the origin of the universe. It has made predictions which have been successfully tested. Can the same be said for your belief? If not, don’t you suppose that’s a relevant difference?
Prove it.
Only one? OK, prove it.
When a person has to resort to “Satan” as an excuse for ignoring the reality which science explains for us, it’s a sure sign that they just don’t understand what it means to present an argument grounded in facts and reason. It’s hardly different from an accused murderer denying the convergent evidence of witnesses, DNA, fingerprints, bloody clothing, and surveillance tapes by insisting that “Satan” created fake evidence to test the faith of the jury.
Well, as a member of the jury I flatly reject your “Satan Did It” defense as beyond the boundaries of all reason or common sense. I can’t view it as anything else but the last, desperate attempt of a person caught by unassailable evidence to confuse and distract rather than admit the truth like an adult. It’s not just that the evidence is against you, but all the evidence is against you — and you’re unable to even bring in a bought-and-paid-for witness to lie on the stand for you.
I notice, by the way, that you didn’t even try to prove the claims you keep making. Is that because you know you can’t but are afraid to admit it?
i know you cant just take my word that God is real. I do appreciate how you say “my God” though because he is my God. He could be your God also if you would’nt be so blind. I believe there is nothing in you that wants to believe that God is real because you want to give man and science the credit. You probably have a problem believing that there is a God because you want to think that no other being is in control of the world you live in….but i have news there is. Here is some proof for you…the Bible prophesied if thats how you spell it that the people of Israel will scatter all over the world and then one day will return and declare theirself a nation once again. Did that not happen in 1938 or 48 i believe. It most certainly did.
Not true.
Instead of making all kinds of assumptions about others, maybe you should consider asking questions.
what do you have to say about the last few sentences of my last comment?
A genuine prophecy has to be specific about an event that isn’t likely to occur naturally. It would not, for example, be a genuine prophecy for me to say that you will “move around” tomorrow — it’s neither specific nor unusual (i.e., not something that’s easy for the average person to imagine happening).
Your “Israel prophecy” fails on both counts. It’s not specific enough about where and when and it’s not unusual to imagine a people being driven away from their homes then coming back — especially if the writer is a Jew who has a political interest in encouraging just that.
Do you have anything better?
Note: expecting me to answer your questions and address every last thing you write is exceptionally arrogant given just how many questions and challenges of mine you have deliberately ignored.
haha…the fact is that the bible prophesied that it would happen and it DID happen. That was nothing like saying i am going to move around tomorrow. It was indeed much out of the ordinary. As of 2007 i see that only about 2.5% of the worlds population are atheists…wonder why people have a hard time believing some of this stuff?
Then I’m a prophet, too.
OK, prove it.
Or don’t post any more, because constantly refusing to answer any questions or challenges is ensures that you don’t end up contributing any of real substance or value here.
I did answer: follow the link I gave you.
Future comments of yours which don’t even try to answer the multitude of questions posed to you will be summarily deleted.
Believer:
Those who have pointed out the un-truth of the Christian religion have succeeded quite well. In Canada, 22% of the population, as of 2008, no longer believe in any gods. The percentage is above 30% in both Australia and New Zealand. Europe as a whole is now 50% atheist. Even in the United States, the percentage who are atheist is over 10%. This is hundreds of millions of people in societies that, 100 years ago, consisted almost 100% of people claiming to be Christian.
Today Christianity has lost many of the forms of persecution it used to be able to use against heretics, sceptics, etc. There is still bigotry by Christians towards atheists, and in some places like the US many atheists still suffer physical, emotional, and property crimes from Christians; but overall, such overt violence and harm is being reduced. As that acceptance of religious bigotry decreases, the erosion of Christianity will only increase. I’ve seen it in my lifetime.
No, those who have shown Christianity to be false have not succeeded to your satisfaction, or to the satisfaction of hundreds of millions of others. But they have not only helped hundreds of millions of people to reject Christianity, they have also moderated and watered Christianity down to the point where it is a de-clawed, liberalised, and modified version of what it used to be – the European equivalent of what Islam still is in much of the Third World. Atheism hasn’t won the war yet, but it has won all the battles for the past 200 years, and it’s rate of success is increasing both in tempo and in strength. Get used to it, because, no matter where you live in North America, Europe, or Australasia, Christians will be a minority by the end of this century.
#57 says, “all I ask is that you disprove the Christian faith and the Bible”
give me a break – the christian faith is contrived; it’s all borrowed from other sources, mostly from the ‘mystery’ religions that were popular at the time. As far as the bible, anyone who bothers to actually read it would plainly see that it’s NOT the “word of god”
#7 – “faith” –
faith means believing what you know isn’t so – there is NO evidence to support it
Joshua (40), you say the universe is extremely ordered and symmetric; please explain. Also, you say that the stars and planets are perfect spheres; they are not; centriful force, resulting from their rotation, expands them at their equators, thus compressing them into oblate spheroids.
“there was no cause of the big bang…that’s the funniest thing i have heard all week. The big bang happened but there is no cause of it, that right there is proof of itself that the big bang theory is a dead end road”.
If everything needs a creator or a cause, then please tell us in clear terms WHO CREATED OR CAUSED GOD? If you can’t answer that, then here’s laughing back at you.
As for the “perfections” of the human body, why do so many people have bad eyesight? Why do we suffer with arthritis, heart disease and cancer?
Rob, please don’t be so critical of science; even you Jesus said that the Earth is flat.
Rob (52) (56) (59) (64) (66): If I thought that you have attained a sufficient educational level, or that you are intellectually competent to understand, I would suggest that you read an elementary textbook on cosmology. It would answer your questions, even the ones about which you laugh, thus showing your ignorance to those who do understand.
Oh Austin, let the moro, um “believer” come back. You don’t have to waste your time with him, but don’t take our fun away. It’s like a kitten with a ball of string.
I personally find it amusing watching someones argument melt like the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz as they back themselves into the “lord works in mysterious ways” and “Satan did it” corner.
It’s almost as much fun as batting an “ID” delusional lunatic around.
Correct, Zayla (82). Reminds me of a verse from an old proverb “He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool; ignore him.
Intelligent Design? If I were a Creationist, I would never use Intelligent to modify Design, just Design. Intelligent is too easy to refute. For example, give one (1) logical reason why an intelligent god would create the toenail fungus.
After 82 comments, there’s not much left for me to say.
Apparently, christian gullibility is still alive and well in the world, but it is definitely ailing. I give it another 50 years.
The foundation on which christianity rests is the Bible. Without the Bible, christianity would wither on the vine.
Despite all the christian hype, the Bible is a proven compendium of falsities, errors, distortions, contradictions, inconsistences, legends, fables, and fairy tales, derived from pagan religions and practices that were in vogue long before the advent of christianity.
No matter what “devout” christians may say, they practice and follow such pagan rituals and beliefs even today.
With regard to Ron Wyatt, Tim (38) rightly says that Wyatt claimed to have solved just about every biblical mystery that ever surfaced, and has proven to be a great embarrassment to the SDA church.
He was nothing less than a charlatan.
FAITH: “Firm belief in something for which there is NO PROOF.”
Rob, there is a typo in (80); I meant to say “your Jesus”, not “you Jesus”.
Also, note how the posters who make the “need for a cause/creator” argument automatically mean christianity by default….
If there is a “creator god”, why does that validate christianity and not islam, judaism and hinduism among others?
If god does exist, and did create the universe, it doesn’t mean that these people have picked the right religion…after all, they can’t all be correct.
Rob (52); If I randomly picked up a book and read “He spreads the skies over unformed space, hangs the earth out in empty space.”, I would not have even the vaguest idea what the writer meant. I see no hint that Job is even talking about the earth’s shape, whether spherical, flat, cubic, tetragonal, square, hexagonal, orthorhombic, saddle shape, or anything else. Maybe you can explain how Job’s comment depicts shape. A little modern cosmological research will show you that space definitely is not empty. Jesus must not have read the Bible; he obviously did not think that the earth is spherical. Please read my comment (80).
Believer,
That’s a great name. It is very descriptive of your intellect. You remind me of a man that I was reading about, Herbert Dingle. He laughed and pointed to Einstein’s theory as evidence of his stupidity. If you are interested in learning about something that has not been disproven including any discovery of conradictory facts, (unlike the bible) read up on the theory of relativity. Another similar story is that of the discovery of Solar Wind. Scientists and thinking lay persons that accept their theorys see science as the best description of a phenomonon that we currently have. This description will change over time as tests are devised to refine or possibly refute it entirely.
Lloyd (88). Dingle gave us something to laugh about in physics classes, when I was in Graduate School. The descrepancies that he thought he found in Einstein’s theories were such that he should have been embarrassed when he was proved in error; I would consider most as either childish and/or ignorant. Example: Dingle algebraically inverted partial derivates, in at least one case, and his result proved Einstein had made an error. A student, taking even an introductory course in differential equations, knows that the inversion was a “no, no!!”
The solar wind was confirmed several years ago. If you are interested, click on NASA/ Marshall Solar Physics. A burst of solar wind was scheduled to arrive on Earth on or about today (6-29-09). I haven’t had time to check it today.
haha…the fact is that the bible prophesied that it would happen and it DID happen. — believer on June 23, 2009 at 5:52 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
Israel was created by a United Nations mandate from a chunk of the crumbling British Empire, in an attempt to address the problem of illegal immigration of Jews to Palestine.
If the creation of Israel required divine intervention, then what do you have to say about the independence of India? How about the formation of Pakistan, Senegal, and other modern states carved from the ruins of dying empires in that same post-World War II era?
Seems like I remember Jesus prophesying that he would return while some standing in the crowd, which he was addressing, were still alive.
1 Corinthians 13:8. Paul prophesied that all prophesies would fail; this includes his prophesy…
I just stumbled upon this so don’t expect a reply to anything you may answer with.
1 Corinthians 13: 8 says “Prophesies and unknown languages will become usless, but love lasts forever.”
These things have become useless because where are the prophets today, where are all these people as in the biblical times who have “strange” spiritual gifts. Paul was just writing that these things would cease to exist, but love lasts forever. He certainly wasn’t saying that all prophesies are and will always be rubbish.
If you are a skeptic I respect that because so many people fall into Christianity with luke warm beliefs instead of asking difficult questions. But I also believe many athiests fall into passivity because they are terrified at exploring Christianity with their full heart. I of course wish for you to find truth, not because I am obligated to do good works, but because it has changed my life so why would I not want to share it. When I had my first In and Out Burger I wanted everyone to know how amazing it was. Same principle. I know it to be truth because asking God into my heart transformed my life. We can argue theology all day and neither of our opinions would change, but how can anyone argue with life change. To you Christians, your testimony is your most powerful tool. Let it be genuine so that people see truth in God’s power. I, and many other believers who did not grow up in the church have been torn from our darkest gloom and had our chains snapped free. Actions and words are often empty, churches and “followers of christ” are definitly flawed and corrupt, but the Bible is truth. God sees through all this, he sees the heart. I apologize for how the church has given many bad taste, but that is representative of God. God promises that those who seek truth will find it if they ask him to reveal it to them. Why would the God who created everything not want people to know him and his truths? My only encouragements to the many skeptics is to soften your justified wall against the church, look yourself in the mirror asking yourself what you really believe about the most important question in life, and ask God to reveal truth to you. He will.
Bobby (92). Which god? Archaeologists/anthropologists have cataloged over 50,000; not one is more probable than any other. Their characteristics differ over a wide range; however, yours is the most despicable ever invented by the deranged mind of man. If one exists, the probability that you have chosen the correct one is rather low.
I grew up in the Presbyterian church, and graduated from a Presbyterian private high school. I was never in gloom before or since I became an atheist; actually I have always been a rather happy, outgoing, fulfilled person, but science snapped my chains and freed me from superstition almost 60 years ago.
Been there, done that. Now I’m an atheist.
Austin, I asked god, and he answered “bob, i ain’t in hevin, i ain’t hear, i ain’t know wher; jist beleve, or go to hell!!”. I was surprised to learn that he and his believers have attained the same educational level.
I meant to say HIGH educational level (95)
The evidence under Aqaba clearly proves the existence of The God of Moses!!! But if anyone would tend to doubt let me just point out that the papyrus of Ipuwer and the story of Sinuhe, as well as the infant burials found at Kahun; shows that there is more to this than some kind of trick. A 12 dynasty would also fit nicely with the evidence found at Jericho and other Canaanite sites. People believe all kinds of things irrespective the facts but as me, I cannot just forget the evidence I know.
Robert T Bobar (97). I would love to see that evidence under Aquaba. Please cite a reference so I can confirm it.
No matter how convinced a Christian(or true believer of any religion) is that their personal experience is real and confirms that the Bible is factual and the Christian God exists, their experience is entirely subjective and cannot be verified or exactly duplicated by others that their experience is real(objectively and externally).
What many believers fail to consider or perhaps even accept is the context that humans and all other life on this planet live in.
The reality of this context is that we live on a infintesimally small planet in the midst of a universe so large in time-space dimensions(10’s of billions of light years) that we can barely comprehend its dimensions.
Everything that our species consider as true have been conceived to this point from the confines of one small planet and from observations of telescopes and space probes.
Yet true believers are arrogant enough to proclaim even with such limited personal experience and subjective faith that they alone know the “truth”.
Science of course is imperfect but at it’s essence is the unending and revisable (a strength, not a weakness)quest for knowledge and truth. Because of our limited vantage point and mobility in the universe this quest for completeness will probably be unending .
Religion will not accept that truth is incomplete and that is it’s abject failure; the incapacity to grow(up) and realize that current knowledge and “truths” are changeable approximations of reality.
Fundamentalists and true believers see only what they wish to believe is true and will not consider that their beliefs are just a very,very small thing(ad infinitum) compared to a universe that is so vast and unknown.
It is the ultimate hubris to believe that your subjective faith and feelings are the final arbiter and authority on truth.
Hi. I have nothing to say but I hated to see this stalled at 99 posts. It bothered my sense of order.
Let’s see, the RCC is evil and should stop every single thing they do until they right the wrong, to the best of their ability of the mass serial rapes they committed and covered up over the last century. OK, I’ll be reasonable, since 1950.
naturalist and Zayla. I gree with both of you 100%.
Thanks AtheistGeophysicistBob,
I appreciate your posts also and by the way geology is one my of favorite sciences.
naturalist. Thanks, I appreciate your response(102). I am very impressed with your comments (99. I have not seen any that were better thought-out and presented on this site. Also, I am happy to learn that geology is one of your favorite sciences. Do you have a favorite geological subject, or just geology in general? I have worked in several areas of geology/geophysics,from mining to teaching, and enjoyed all.
Thanks much again AGBob,
I think that a lot of the my thoughts on atheism, agonosticism have been formed through my reading of astronomy,cosmology, geology and of course evoloutionary biology. Discovering the reality of deep time and what a vast universe we a part of can make you question (if one is curious and open to change)many traditional concepts that religion and popular culture has promoted or enforced through indoctrination as true.
I am interested in geology in general, but plate tectonics is a fascinating subject that I have read a lot about online and in texts. I follow a number of geology blogs like AboutGeology.com.,ScienceBlogs and others. From reading the essays of many of these practicing earth scientists and teachers,it is evident that geological work and the diverse environments you explore can be very interesting. I am a electronics service technician, so my interest in geology and other sciences has been for the continued enjoyment of self-learning.
Glad that you have had a satisfying career.
Here’s Richard Feynman, the late physicist in a video with a very well thought out and rational view of the universe.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/richard_feynman_tells_it_like.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knDXAr4ltMA&feature=PlayList&p=84E830BC93398EA6&index=0&playnext=1
Wouldn’t be nice to have more clear articulate minds like this be embraced by our media and poplar culture than the mindless drivel that comes from evangelists and other talking heads.
I enjoyed your comments, naturalist. I also am interested in cosmology; I suspect that you know that cosmology ties into geology at the point where the debris circling the sun first clumped to begin the formation of Earth.
I almost had the chance to hear 2 lectures by the cosmologist, Alan Guth, on April 7. Fate intervened. He spoke a couple of blocks from my primary ophthalmologist/ophthalmological surgeon’s office in Cambridge. Guth, as you probably know, is a professor at MIT. I am rather busy tonight, but will comment further tomorrow. If you are interested in some of my old geological stories, I will trade e-mail addrsses with you. I suspect you have some interesting stories, also.
This page will not let me respond nor present proofs because its biased
This page wont let you respond? Seems to me you just responded. All you need do is post a link to whatever evidence you have.
Thanks AGBob,
I have sent Austin a email with my address and hope he can forward it to you.
Thanks for the reference to Alan Guth who I am not familiar with.
naturalist (109). Hope you had a great 4th.
bobgiles34@aol.com
I have been reading your argument/debate with believer and I’ve been seeing you’re not really explaining yourself and seem to be dodging questions. “Give me an example of this”, you’ll say. Ok, here’s one. Believer said “you say mass is responsible for gravity… what is responsible for mass?” where you replied “I already answered that” and in fact, at that time, you had not answered it. You answered it later on briefly by saying Big Bang. But that is just a brief example and not the main point in my response.
“We don’t evolve”.. you ask to prove it. We all have the same evidence. The problem is the point of view. Your fellow believers see an extinct ape-kind and call it a missing link to the human race. We see an extinct ape-kind and call it an extinct ape.
The accident that was mentioned is referring to the Big Bang. The belief in a monumental explosion (a huge random accident) sending matter and ant-matter in every direction (although the matter and anti-matter should cancel each other out leaving only energy)… somehow these countless bits of elements and matter began forming stars and planets over time (although if an explosion happened at one point and everything shot straight from this point, how are they crashing into each other to form anything else) … and then at some point on a planet we’ll call Earth, there was a non-living mixture of chemicals that through time became life and from that non-life to life scientific impossibility developed animals then eventually “cave men” then humans as we see today. Somehow these cave men all “evolved” into the many various cultures that we see today and from ugh’s and ooh’s developed the many languages we see today. Yes, seems reasonable.
Where did physicists go wrong in coming up with the Big Bang theory? They weren’t there. The billions of years theory is based on multiple assumptions devised from just a small period of scientific research. (1800’s to now) Where is this empirical and mathematical support for the Big Bang model and how are they “successfully tested”? How can you know if it’s correct? The point is, you can’t. These are man’s ideas based on faulty assumptions.
The easy return argument from you is that we weren’t there when God created the universe either… however, the first man created was there towards the end of the creation week. God the creator was there. We believe that the Bible is written by the inspiration of God, not man (II Timothy 3:16) and that is why we believe the Bible as it is written as the infallible word of God.
We are forced to learn about big bang, evolution, etc. in schools. It would do you good to research the other side of the story… not just by reading the Bible “in several languages”. Research to see what other religious sources are saying as to why they believe the way they believe. Answers in Genesis (not in high regard with science and naturally so since AiG does not believe in the Big Bang)… it may do you some good to research them. Walter Veith is a scientist who became a Christian and gives a great lecture about the physical evidence on earth showing how there definitely could have been a world wide flood. We’re presenting another side. It is up to you to accept it or not.
In fact, all our job is as Christians is to tell people that there was a man named Jesus who died for your sins and that’s all our responsibility it is. It is up to you to accept it or not.
Unfortunately my time is up and I was not able to read any of the posts past June 23. Good luck to all.
It would be nice if you could name one.
Yes, I did in #57: “Matter has mass and mass is responsible for gravity.” What is responsible for mass? Matter.
Then provide the evidence.
Feel free to demonstrate that it is an “accident.”
So if someone isn’t there to observe something, it’s not possible to come up with an accurate description of what happened?
Feel free to demonstrate where their reasoning and/or math is wrong.
Do you really want the names of some texts where it is explained?
Presumably, before you came to the conclusion that the Big Bang is wrong you made your own study of this. Any serious study would have included the writings of the scientists who explain the Big Bang. So, you must know the titles of basic, explanatory text books. So, you don’t need titles from me.
But you should be able to demonstrate how and where their explanations go wrong.
Can’t? OK, prove it.
Feel free to demonstrate which assumptions are faulty in what way.
You are also forced to learn about relativity, plate tectonics, etc. Is there any part of science that you accept?
I have read the scriptures and apologetics of other religions as well. They are no more believable than Christianity.
I have.
Richie Cunningham said
“In fact, all our job is as Christians is to tell people that there was a man named Jesus who died for your sins and that’s all our responsibility it is.”
How perfectly self-incriminating. This could be a succient description of the intellctual laziness,irresponsibility and narcissism of the fundamentalist mindset.
Simple irresponsible excuse for everything in the world from war,poverty to environmental degradation…God did it…It’s God’s will.
Bullsh*t.
Richie Cunningham (111). The Bible is infallible. Jesus told his disciples that the Earth is flat; either it is flat, or he lied. Which?
My comment (114). That is not the 1st time that I have made the comment. I am waiting for a Bible scholar to say “No, he did not.” or “Prove it.”
Richie Cunningham (111). It would be difficult for me to say that anyone died, if he only remained dead for a few hours.
Science throws out the trash. Religion never does.
i was going to reply, but i realized it would take hours and hours i don’t have. Richie’s semi-educated nonsense is just too much to handle.
Richie Cunningham (111). I can give you all of the references you need to both empirical and mathematical (which I suspect you will not understand) confirmations of several (there are more than one) Big Bang theories; first, I want you to tell me whether or not Jesus lied about the flat earth.
One simple question. Why do xians always attempt to indict us by asserting lack of scientific evidence for big bang, evolution, etc., when they don’t feel they need a shred of scientific research to support their theory? Seriously curious.
We are forced to learn about big bang, evolution, etc. in schools. — Richie Cunningham on July 7, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I am sorry to hear that you were at some point forced to learn. I hope you have recovered from the trauma.
However, no doubt your frightening experience has a least had the result that you are intimately familiar with what scientists have to say about the Big Bang, evolution, and other topics that vex some theists.
Perhaps you can share some of that information, rather than simply regurgitating the talking points dispensed on creationist websites and books of facile apologetics?
Richie Cunningham (111), you can go to your local library and find any information that you desire about the various Big Bang models, mathematical and empirical support, and how they are “successfully tested”, in peer reviewed theoretical physics and cosmological journals; obviously, you have not been doing your homework.
In order for a particle and antiparticle to annihilate, they must be within less than one (1) de Broglie wavelength; either you or your cosmological mentor seems to have forgotten. The calculation is rather simple; ask your mentor to calculate the de Broglie wavelength of an electron one (1) nanosecond after a Big Bang; you may be surprised.
Even I would hesitate to take on AGB, no wonder
Richie Cunningham as gone to ground..
Austin u nid Christ bro,,,u realy need Him to open your eyes…the bible says “trust in the Lord with all your herat and lean not on your own understanding”(Proverbs 3:5 NIV)
heart i meant Austin, and have you ever been to church?
Tom Edgar, it seems to me that Richie Cunningham is a typical Creationist; preach and run. But what else can they do?
ay-v t.C.a (124). Please read Proverbs 3:7 and Romans 12:16. I think the authors have a message for you.
I just thought it was funny that you have an advertisement for the Book of Mormon that’s almost bigger than the words you wrote yourself in your “blog.” Also it’s a shame you waste your energy in your belief in nothing. I felt as though my life was just wasted by these three sentences because I had to share the irony in that advertisement.
I don’t have any say over the ads here.
I don’t believe in nothing.
Did it ever occur to you to ask people what they believe instead of just making assumptions and declarations?
No, your life is wasted when you behave arrogantly and presume that you don’t need to ask questions to learn anything new.
I’m not so sure I’d worship a God whom I could prove or explain. Anyone that simplistic is more like an equal than a diety.
It happens that millions of people all over the world know that God exists, not because of chariot parts on the Red Sea floor or sedimentary evidence of the Great Flood, but rather because they just spoke to Him only minutes ago.
It’s a faith thing.
search online and you’ll find the pictures of chariot wheels. it obviously isn’t coral.