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Austin Cline

Pharaoh's Chariots Found in Red Sea?

By January 25, 2004

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Every so often we hear about someone who says that they have found evidence of Egyptian chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea - presumably, this is supposed to be evidence of the army that chased the Jews at the start of their exodus out of Egypt and which was destroyed when God let the waters return to their normal state. But is any of this "evidence" genuine?

World Net Daily reports:

[O]thers ... are not so sure what is being viewed underwater are the remnants of the great chase and urge extreme caution regarding the unsubstantiated claims. "All kinds of people are finding coral and calling it chariot parts," says Richard Rives, president of Wyatt Archaeological Research in Tennessee. "It's most likely coral covered with coral. ... Opportunists are combining false things with the true things that are found. These people are making it up as they go to be TV stars."
[Mary Nell] cites Ron's discovery of a wheel hub that he brought to the surface in the late 1970s as proof. The hub had the remains of eight spokes radiating outward and was examined by Nassif Mohammed Hassan, director of Antiquities in Cairo. Hassan declared it to be from the 18th Dynasty of ancient Egypt, explaining the eight-spoked wheel was used only during that dynasty around 1400 B.C. Curiously, no one can account for the precise whereabouts of that eight-spoked wheel today, though Hassan is on videotape stating his conclusion regarding authenticity.

It sounds like people are seeing what they want to see - over a large expanse of sea, it's not surprising that they might discover a couple of places where there is a pattern that matches what they are looking for. Of course such "discoveries" will make someone a star - not just on TV, though. It will also make them a star on the evangelical Christian lecture circuit, complete with a book and numerous interviews and magazine article. These discoveries tell people what they want to hear about the historicity of the Bible, and many evangelical Christians are quite happy to spend lots of money to confirm what they already believe. Of course, they aren't acting any different from normal people here, but they have a heavy emotional investment in their religion so they have strong motivations to find "evidence," any evidence,' to confirm things for them.

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Comments
July 16, 2007 at 2:56 am
(1) Tommy says:

it looks more like a case of an atheist not seeing what he doesnt want to see, it doesnt take stevie wonder to see that thats not coral upon coral, those are wheels,BUT if I was a person that didnt want to see that OR beleive anything biblical was true, Id think it was a bunk too,but in the same,I fire this to you, I go by my faith in God and I know hes there, thats what I believe,but can you prove that there is no God? can you prove that your existance is to get up in the morning and die in the evening without reason?

May 26, 2011 at 3:33 am
(2) Jo says:

It is not for atheists to prove the non-existence of God, it is for believers to prove just as I would have to prove the existence of Fairies or Leprechauns if I believed in them! There are lots of unsubstantiated claims about proof of Bible stories – all of them posted on the Web by Christian fundamentalists, desperate for proof of their myths.

As far asa the meaning of life is concerned, which has nothing to do with this topic, the meaning is whatever you make it. I can aim to enjoy my life and help others to get the most out of theirs without needing some supernatural explanation. And I don’t have to be afraid of Hell, like you, since I don’t believe in it!

October 19, 2011 at 11:27 am
(3) Cowboy says:

everything that allows you live to enjoy life to flavor the many wonders of life are gifts from you know whom
there is not one shred of evidence against the divine creation theory that can stand the litmus test of reality
cant see the almighty … how many people have experienced miracles that are with out a doubt miracles
like children in a store when their mother wont buy them everything their eyes see that the best
way to describe atheist

November 22, 2011 at 10:03 am
(4) Another Reader says:

Mr. Cline makes a good point, it is important to question such discoveries in order to get to the truth of the matter as we as humans like to find things that support our beliefs whether or not they are true. That is why it is important not to only to rest on evidence that someone else has become convinced of but test it for our selves, seek out other evidence, and find the truth. That is what is required if we are going to follow someone who claimed to be the Way, the Truth and the Life.

August 29, 2007 at 12:12 pm
(5) Stephen says:

Amen Tommy.

I like how the atheist/agnostic writer only selected portions of the article to show us that fed his own belief.

Tell me, how does it feel to knowingly delute yourself? How can you knowingly stay in denial and believe something that you just read evidence to the contrary?

I guess the atheist/agnostic is right: you see what you want to see.

July 8, 2011 at 9:33 am
(6) Amunet says:

Proverbs 14:15

The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

January 14, 2008 at 8:36 am
(7) Mac says:

Autsin, what I don’t understand is why you would take Rives quote and conclude then that there has never been evidence of chariots. Truth is on the Wyatt Archeological Research website http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm , they claim there are wheels and evidence and they continue to claim evidence on the path taken by the Israelites across the sea.

Rives’ quote was referring to Peter Elmer’s claim. Rives is refuting Elmer’s claim not that the exodus and parting of the sea happened. Rives’ organization believes there is evidence.

Austin, please get your facts straight before printing it as truth.

January 14, 2008 at 9:53 am
(8) Austin Cline says:

Austin, please get your facts straight before printing it as truth.

I believe that I do have all the facts straight. If you disagree, please point to a single statement I have made which is false — something I’ve actually written, not your own misinterpretation of what I’ve written. If you can’t, would you kindly retract your accusation here?

February 7, 2008 at 2:56 pm
(9) Audrey Summers says:

Of course it could (& I believe is) be true. Don’t we believe in dinosaurs, altho, no one in written history has seen them. We only have the fossils, etc. to confirm our belief in a creature that has been extinct for millions of years. If this was some agnostic belief. people would be jumping on the “wagon”! Of course, there is a God. Too many unexplainable things in the world that could only be made by God.

February 7, 2008 at 2:59 pm
(10) Austin Cline says:

Of course, there is a God. Too many unexplainable things in the world that could only be made by God.

Like what, for example?

February 12, 2008 at 10:42 am
(11) Lori says:

As Christians we are not required to force anyone to believe in God, only to live as Jesus would live thereby living an example so that others might follow suit. If Austin chooses to ignore or denounce the evidence, that is his choice. Just because he says it isn’t so doesn’t mean that Christians should question their faith. After all that is what faith is all about. Have faith in the unseen and the unproven and enjoy a blessed existence.

February 12, 2008 at 3:07 pm
(12) Pandamonk says:

As Christians we are not required to force anyone to believe in God, only to live as Jesus would live thereby living an example so that others might follow suit. If Austin chooses to ignore or denounce the evidence, that is his choice. Just because he says it isn’t so doesn’t mean that Christians should question their faith. After all that is what faith is all about. Have faith in the unseen and the unproven and enjoy a blessed existence.

If there is evidence, please provide it and Austin, myself, and many other atheists will convert. Until such time, we see no reason to.

Obviously for something to pass as evidence it must adhere to a few rules: It must be logical, it must be possible/probable, it must be irrefutable, God must be the only explanation(not simply for you, it must be the only possible explanation. The eye/life have perfectly satisfactory explanations.),… if there are any other “rules”, feel free to add them.

Lee

-sorry if the html doesn’t work.-

February 12, 2008 at 3:31 pm
(13) Todd says:

“Don’t we believe in dinosaurs, altho, no one in written history has seen them.”

Audrey,

Do you believe in you car? Or is it just there whether you believe in it or not?

Just because you can’t explain why there is a sock missing a match, doesn’t mean a gremlin stole it. Sometimes… there are rational/non-idiotic explanations for why things happen. Science knows it is incomplete, but it seeks only the truth, not what makes us feel better.

Also, learn how to spell and punctuate.

February 12, 2008 at 3:48 pm
(14) John Hanks says:

Suckers are created and maintained by crooks. The average human being stops developing emotionally or intellectually at age 14

February 12, 2008 at 7:00 pm
(15) Joan says:

Saw a program on the History Channel not long ago about natural explanations to biblical stories. One of the stories was about the Red Sea and it stated there was a problem in translation; it should have been the Reed Sea, not the Red Sea. What does that do to the chariot finding?!!

February 13, 2008 at 12:56 am
(16) Jay FTL says:

Again, and try to follow along: Archaeological findings do not “prove” that the stories in the Bible are true. There is plenty of archaeological evidence of the Civil War, plantations, slavery, the burning of Atlanta, etc, but that does not mean Gone With the Wind is a true story or that Scarlett O’Hara was a real person.

February 13, 2008 at 8:16 am
(17) Joan says:

Jay, I think you misunderstood my comment. If, in fact, it was the Reed Sea instead of the Red Sea, then finding chariots in the Red Sea does not substantiate the biblical story. Check with the History Channel about that story. It was very interesting. It gave natural causes for stories that have been recorded in the bible as divinely orchestrated. Would be great for christians to see as it pretty much puts the literal interpretation of the bible to the test. Would someone please tell me how christians can legitimize their faith in a book with so many inconsistencies and so many stories that modernity and science have proven to be ignorant interpretations?!!

February 13, 2008 at 10:57 am
(18) Warrior for Christ says:

You people have nothing better to do than attack the truth of the bible. You are filled with such hatred, why do you hate God? Did you not get any love as children? And don’t give me that crap about “I can’t hate something I don’t believe in”. You all believe in God, Paul says in the bible the nature proves God exist so that you are all without exuse. You all know you are going to hell. So when you are burning in hell, don’t cry to me because that is what you get for persecuting God’s people.

February 13, 2008 at 12:57 pm
(19) Joan says:

Warrior:
It’s very easy & credible for us to say that we do not believe in something that doesn’t exist. The burden of proof is with those who say they believe in something with no evidence behind it at all and a fictional book describing it. I don’t hate anyone. I respect a person’s right to believe anything they want. I just don’t know why they can’t be honest about the lack of legitimacy of it all. Why do they insist on pushing that fairy tale upon others as absolute fact? If you want to believe in something, fine. Just be honest about it all. You’re the one in denial here. Also, I think it’s more honorable to accept someone and their beliefs than it is to condemn someone to “hell” or whatever for them not joining your belief system. You’re awful hot under the collar for someone so sure of themselves. Not showing a lot of self assurance. Also not showing much “christian” behavior.

February 13, 2008 at 1:04 pm
(20) Joan says:

One more thing, Warrior – Who is persecuting you?! You get onto an agnostic/atheist blog and get all bent out of shape because others on that blog don’t agree with you?!! If you don’t want to hear disagreement with your dogma, don’t push that dogma on others you know don’t buy it. Also, you get more flies with honey than vinegar. If you didn’t have doubts, you wouldn’t get so emotionally invested in what others think and say.

February 14, 2008 at 2:39 am
(21) H N Camp says:

What is unexplainable today may be explainable tomorrow.

February 14, 2008 at 9:00 am
(22) Buddy says:

Hey Audrey Summers, just because we can’t explain something does not mean a god did it. We used to think the world was flat didn’t we? It would be hubris to think that we can know everything about the universe and explain it as god did it.

Warrior for Christ, criticizing does not equal hate. What I hear coming from you resembles hate. I don’t hate you I fear you. I fear your authoritarian posturing combined with your screen name and your extreme bigotry. Your thinking is no different from that of authoritarian rulers of history that managed to oppress and kill millions that were different. I fear the way you think. You scare the crap out of me.

February 14, 2008 at 11:37 pm
(23) changed forever says:

The more I study the Bible, the more my faith is strengthened. I would encourage anyone to read it and try to find errors. I am going to Israel in June to see the places I have been reading about. The Bible is God’s love letter to us; He sent Jesus to come down to live among us and be the ultimate sacrifice for you and me. Jesus changed my life. I went to church and did all the rituals but was not a changed soul until I read and understood John 3:16, Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23. No one can get to heaven on their own merit – EVERYONE IS A SINNER.
If Jesus was here in the flesh, he would be blogging with you because he loves you. He wants everyone to know that he is the only one that can be our advocate at the gates of heaven and say, “let them in, I know them”.

February 15, 2008 at 9:39 am
(24) K. Anonymous says:

To Changed Forever:

I am pleased you have a faith that makes you so happy, in all honesty I am. I do not personally believe in what you say but have nothing against you believing it. However, I can’t help but take some exception to your talking of how everyone is a sinner and how only Jesus can save us. This goes beyond being happy with own faith and stretches into impinging on other people’s.
I suppose perhaps you would argue that you genuinly feel you have a moral duty to try and ‘save’ us from eternity in hell. However before you do, look more closely at why you feel you need to ‘help’ us, look at the contradictions that are rife in the beliefs of those who say God is love whilst simultaneously saying that anyone who doesn’t do what the Bible apparently says they should will be tortured for eternity.

Believe what you like, but think carefully before telling others what will happen to them.

February 16, 2008 at 11:44 am
(25) Paul Buchman says:

Does anyone here really think that Audrey Summers, Lori, or changed forever will ever return to defend their statements? I’ve noticed that others like them rarely do.

March 12, 2008 at 10:47 am
(26) Heather Quinn-Schilling says:

I do think it was silly of urban legend.com to not have a non-biased person/expert try to uncover the truth about this info. I would expect to see someone with a science background or archeology trying to work with this information. True or not? I’ll go to other sources to find out…not here to argue religion–want to know more facts:)

June 6, 2008 at 6:30 pm
(27) Not Ashamed says:

It is amazing to me that so many of you (not all) have so much fear and hatred toward those who believe in God and the Bible. As someone who claims to be a follower of Jesus, It does help me validate things in the bible to see discoveries that could be historical. I am a realist too and know that the facts are not conclusive on these findings. To believe in a loving God is not a bad thing. When I read things like this it makes me feel sad that True Christians who love without judging are lumped into a stereotypical mass of ideological fools who drink koolade every Sunday. Not all Christians are racist bigots. Just like not all Muslims are terrorists. We love and accept everyone. I don’t need archaeological findings to validate my beliefs. Jesus said…” let those that have ears to hear..listen.” I enjoy listening to your views on the bible then I know how to pray for you. It is not Christians jobs to prove the existence of God. He reveals Himself all the time..you just have to look and listen. Know that I am not judging any of you. I hope you all find your way and don’t end up separated from God forever. Peace be with you all!

June 6, 2008 at 9:37 pm
(28) Austin Cline says:

It is amazing to me that so many of you (not all) have so much fear and hatred toward those who believe in God and the Bible.

Feel free to point to some examples that justify this accusation.

To believe in a loving God is not a bad thing.

Why not?

I don’t need archaeological findings to validate my beliefs.

Does this mean that you don’t care if the scientific evidence supports or opposes your beliefs?

It is not Christians jobs to prove the existence of God.

It is if they publicly proclaim that their god exists.

I hope you all find your way and don’t end up separated from God forever.

If I said that I hope you find your way an don’t end up separated from reason forever, would you find that offensive?

If so, then have you ever considered that what you said might be treated as offensive? Have you ever stopped to seriously consider how your words really sound to outsiders?

June 20, 2008 at 3:21 pm
(29) Warrior for Christ says:

“have you ever considered that what you said might be treated as offensive?”

I don’t care how my words sound to men Austin, I care how they sound to God. It wasn’t too long ago that your atheist arrogence would have got you burned at the stake. Before all this “human rights” crap came along. We have no rights apart from doing God’s will and following Jesus. And continue spitting in God’s face and see what happens Austin… getting burned at the stake will come sooner or later, and if you don’t repent and it becomes later than sooner, you will burn at the divine stake forever. I for one want front row seats for your punishment Austin.

July 8, 2011 at 9:31 am
(30) Amunet says:

You are speaking the truth Warrior for Christ. Because everywhere the Christian has gone he had to FORCE his beliefs on the indigenous peoples of the lands. Wherever the Christian went he has caused war, where there was peace. Spread diseases where there was health. Stolen land that does not rightfully belong to him. Raped women. Knocked down monuments and temples to hide the truth. Damn…almost sound like the DEVIL doesn’t it STEALING, KILLING, AND DESTROYING. teach the truth Warrior for Christ… because that’s what Christ has done all over the world caused chaos. So as a Christian, you are not wrong about anything you said. Why should you be a hypocrite? Atleast you know the truth about the foundation of your Christ.

June 20, 2008 at 6:40 pm
(31) gaypaganunitarianagnostic says:

I do not hate anyone for his/her religion. I do get angry and oppose groups that try to restrict individual freedom. As a gay man I am not directly affected by abortion or birth control issues, but I am fiercely opposed to restriction of birth control. Christians have in fact tried to repress the religious rights of pagans

June 20, 2008 at 6:52 pm
(32) Kali says:

Dear Warrior for Christ,
I am seriously concerned for you. I think you will make God really angry by your intolerant and sadistic speech. Did you read anything in the Bible about forgiveness eg ‘Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”? And does it say anywhwere in the Bible that unbelievers should be ‘burned at the stake’.

Be afraid Warrior, be very afraid – you may go straight to hell fire and the honest atheists may well have a front row seat … unless you repent, ask Jesus for forgiveness and live the rest of your life promoting peace, harmony, love and respect for others as Jesus would have done.

I hope you will see

June 20, 2008 at 8:04 pm
(33) John Hanks says:

I fear dumb luck and just about everything else.

June 20, 2008 at 10:00 pm
(34) MAS2007 says:

Dear Warrior for Christ,
All I can say is I hope you recover from you hate mongering and theistic delusion soon.

Unbeliever in all deities.

June 21, 2008 at 3:25 pm
(35) Irene says:

Dear Warrior for Christ,

Your writing betrays a serious anger issue. When you use words like “human rights crap,” it appears you are longing for the “good old days” when you could torture or kill those you didn’t like or whose beliefs offended you. Now, all you have are fantasies of your surrogate (God) doing the torturing for you. PLEASE get professional help before your viciousness explodes into violence. An honest difference of opinion among complete strangers should not result in such emotional outbursts. Your anger fairly seeps through my computer screen! If I were a Christian, I’d be afraid to sit next to you in church.

June 21, 2008 at 3:34 pm
(36) K. Anonymous says:

‘I don’t care how my words sound to men Austin, I care how they sound to God.’

Well like it or not Warrior you live in a world of men (using this as the general term for humainty, not males only) so you’d better start caring about what they think, because whilst the existance of god is disputable (and please rather than just saying its not, if you reply to this, actually give a REASON, though from your backward thinking that will be hard for you to do) the existance of men is not.

‘It wasn’t too long ago that your atheist arrogence would have got you burned at the stake.’

So all atheists are arrogant but people who claim to know exactly what an omnipitent and all-powerful being wants aren’t?

‘Before all this “human rights” crap came along. We have no rights apart from doing God’s will and following Jesus.’

You mean doing what religious officials said was god’s will.

‘And continue spitting in God’s face and see what happens Austin… getting burned at the stake will come sooner or later, and if you don’t repent and it becomes later than sooner, you will burn at the divine stake forever.’

You can’t spit in the face of something you don’t believe in. If we hated god rather than just didn’t believe him, why don’t we declare ourselves as antichrists or something like that?

‘I for one want front row seats for your punishment Austin.’

Has anyone told you that you’re a sadistic and sick person? By your description, god is nothing but a giant bully in the sky, so even if he does exist, why do what he wants? You need a serious attitude change Warrior, all this anger of yours doesn’t come from god, it comes from you. As Kali rightly said, (though not in these exact words) its time for you to stop hating and try to make the world a better place. Its nice to see people like Kali showing that not all christians are backward hate-mogerers like you. (Though I already knew this, I fear there are some atheists who don’t)

June 22, 2008 at 12:46 am
(37) Fernando says:

Warrior says
“I don’t care how my words sound to men Austin, I care how they sound to God. It wasn’t too long ago that your atheist arrogence would have got you burned at the stake. Before all this “human rights” crap came along. We have no rights apart from doing God’s will and following Jesus. And continue spitting in God’s face and see what happens Austin… getting burned at the stake will come sooner or later, and if you don’t repent and it becomes later than sooner, you will burn at the divine stake forever. I for one want front row seats for your punishment Austin.”

I’m not sure how to start…

This Warrior fellas post is so indicative of the collective annihilation of the human mind. This is nothing short of extremism. Having studied religions of the world, I can tell you that this individual has no concept behind the meaning of his “perceived” spirituality. It’s people that regard their “imagined” purpose as being more import than humanity that is one of the biggest challenges that faces the people of this beautiful planet.

I’m not sure if Warrior will understand:(

Fernando

June 25, 2008 at 12:49 am
(38) Dagga says:

there is a vacuum a big one at that in the very depth of our existence that people just would fill it up with anything that comes along

and as it were, God believing does not just come along it is stocked into the very air we take in….so many people still cannot explain where this air comes from

the quest and labour to get our daily bread drowns our entire being in a daily routine that automatically lazy the imagination…

the likes of Warrior, should be the least of our worries, this world for so many reason would continue to chunk more of his mode as long as the perpetuation of ignorance continues as a basis to guarantee for a few the domination of the many

July 1, 2008 at 4:11 pm
(39) John Hanks says:

We don’t have to murder anyone any more.
God and religious experience is located in the upper right quadrant of the brain.

July 1, 2008 at 11:05 pm
(40) Tom Edgar says:

I can offer counseling to “Warrior” and others if they are in Australia or alternatively direct them to some very experienced psychiatrists.

At this distance I can only say this person “Warrior” apparently, should be in an institution to protect others from his possible actions.

tomedgar@halenet.com.au

July 2, 2008 at 1:04 pm
(41) Todd says:

What confuses me about Warrior and the like is that they think we hate anyone or anything. i certainly don’t, i might make fun of it, but that’s a far cry from hating*. To me it suggests a delusion of persecution. They perceive any questioning of their book as an attack. Who’s more hateful, the atheist saying “those wheels could have been dumped there by any one of a million ships that sailed that sea” or the xian saying “You’re gonna burn in hell, y’all commie pinko atheists!”?

* Hmm, kinda reminds me of the muslims and the cartoon crisis. There’s a famous picture of a guy holding a sign that says “Behead those who insult islam”.

“We’re the religion of peace and we’ll kill you if you make fun of us!”

July 5, 2008 at 6:49 pm
(42) Paul says:

This would be funny if it weren’t so sad. All I can say about these flamers is to quote Rumi: “You can wake those who are sleeping, but no matter what you do, you cannot wake up those who are only pretending to sleep.” Unfortunately, history has shown time and again that a small number of extremists can hold entire nations hostage to their perverse delusions.
As an archaeologist I can say more, though I have not seen the show that mentions the chariot wheels. If they said nothing about site formation processes, then you have no idea how those wheels got to where they were found. Another good question to ask is, how high was sea level at the time those wheels are supposed to have been deposited? Probably more important to think about, though, is that shows like this are often made with the assumption that average people and not experts will be watching. I once saw a show on PBS about the archaeology of a part of the world I was doing my master’s thesis on. They went on and on about a theory that this civilization was destroyed by a volcano. The theory is quite sensational but also quite old (before C-14 dating was calibrated) and had been pretty well discredited in professional circles more than a decade before the show was made. Since then I have taken anything I see on educational television with a grain or two of salt.

July 27, 2008 at 5:17 am
(43) Tim says:

You can’t possibly be seriously considering any “evidence” from Ron Wyatt, can you? He claims he’s found the second set of stone tablets on which the ten commandments were written, which he claimed to keep in his garage — he claims he found Noah’s ark, Noah’s farm, the Ark of the Covenant, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, the blood of Jesus, and so on…

Strangely, he’s never provided ANY evidence for any other archaeologists nor any other independant researchers.

If he is going to make such incredible claims, he must provide a great deal of evidence. He’s clearly never found anything! How could he get the human bone out of the Red Sea, but authorities (he claimed) stopped him from removing the wheel — then he claims he did remove the wheel, which nobody can find today. Of course, that it wasn’t covered in mud or coral is fishy.

July 28, 2008 at 7:13 pm
(44) Mary says:

Ultimately, this topic of discussion has not been proven one way or the other. For Christians, we do not need this proof anyway. Try not to let these antagonists get to you. Let it go.

August 25, 2008 at 12:48 am
(45) Joshua says:

You know, Some people do not believe in God. But He believes in everyone else. The reason why you cannot disprove or prove without a doubt the Bible is because it is BASED ON FAITH. Have faith in God, and He will manifest Himself in you, and PROVE TO YOU. that He Loves you. That is why blind atheist/agnostic/ whatever you guys are calling yourselves these days cannot see that. And it is just grinding at your gears isn’t it. You cannot stand the fact that maybe all the stuff you see when you open your eyes is not the result of rondomness. Is Mozart Randomness. Is the symmetry and Harmony of gravity random. Take this little experiment. Get a deck of cards, go upstairs, and just throw them off of the second floor. Now pick them up, and do the experiment again. Do all of the cards land in the exact same place, with the same cards facing up and down? No. that is randomness, yet you are using the basic fundamentals of nature that “exploaded and evolved the extremely ordered and symmetric universe” If God does not exist, how can you say that the same forces in nature that formed the stars and planets into perfect spheres with perfect order, cannot make a deck of cards begin to orbit eachother and evovle monkeys into people and fools into bigger fools?

August 25, 2008 at 6:35 am
(46) Austin Cline says:

The reason why you cannot disprove or prove without a doubt the Bible is because it is BASED ON FAITH. Have faith in God, and He will manifest Himself in you, and PROVE TO YOU. that He Loves you.

You could say the same about any religion. So what reason is there to think that yours is better than any other religion?

August 29, 2008 at 2:57 pm
(47) Jeremy says:

The reason why you cannot disprove or prove without a doubt the Bible is because it is BASED ON FAITH.

Joshua, you would do well to truly think about the implications of such a statement. As Austin pointed out above, your justification of the bible through Faith is not exclusive to your religion. Any proposition can be justified by Faith because Faith itself is not inhibited by reason or evidence.

Faith does not help us discern the difference between truth and falsehood. In fact, your comment above is a good example of how Faith further clouds the issue.

Do you honestly think it is praiseworthy to hold to a belief *no matter what*?

August 29, 2008 at 8:49 pm
(48) John Hanks says:

My personal taste is for Big Brother.

August 30, 2008 at 8:21 am
(49) Reason says:

Faith is just another word for no proof.

August 30, 2008 at 3:49 pm
(50) Todd says:

Joshua,

The way the cards fall isn’t random. It’s merely unpredictable. What makes cards fall this way or that is completely causal. The roll of a die is causal, it’s predictable by physics if you have enough information. The rate of spin is determined by the force of your hand, the bounce is determined the hardness of the surface, of the die and the velocity of the die. We use such system to simulate randomness because the result is unknowable/uncontrollable by the participants. It’s not luck, and not divine intervention.

Mozart(‘s music) isn’t randomness. So what?

That’s the difference between a rational mind and an irrational mind. A rational mind can accept that somethings aren’t known, or immediately knowable, but doesn’t chalk it up to ghosts and goblins. Humanity didn’t understand lightning, so they invented gods and spirits. Now we understand electricity and how it works. No need for made up nonsense.

August 30, 2008 at 5:35 pm
(51) EJ says:

The universe expanded and planets are almost sperical due to gravity. Smaller bodies are not necessarily sperical because they do not have enough mass to generate gravity.

August 31, 2008 at 3:25 am
(52) Zack says:

You cannot stand the fact that maybe all the stuff you see when you open your eyes is not the result of rondomness. Joshua on August 25, 2008 at 12:48 am

This is the kind of thing that theists say when they know next to nothing about atheism, still less about science, and least of all about spelling.

September 11, 2008 at 1:03 am
(53) FuriouS says:

This proves nothing except there are remains of Egyptian chariots on the sea floor(if that’s what they are). There may be many explanations for this:

1. The sea level was lower, and this was once an fully exposed land shelf through the red sea. This would be a very strategic place to hold a battle.

2. Ships sank on the way somewhere else

3. Moses did part the sea. ( Note: I think modern religion has perverted the ideas of religion, and really has no claim to be correct based on this. If there is a god I am pretty sure he’s not happy with you and your judgmental dogma.)

4. They are simply coral that looks like a wheel.

In any case. The bible was written by man, or “translated” if you prefer. It’s been twisted and perverted by man to his own benefit and anyone still handing 10% to this perversion in my mind, isn’t paying attention.

October 22, 2008 at 4:36 am
(54) Jimmy Crow says:

I sit and wonder why so many people get fired up about science hasnt science contradicted itself so many times before. If science leads you to believe anything and ten years later it has been discredited by science. Why put your faith in science instead of Jesus Christ whoms life and death sound outlandish but never has been discreditd.

October 22, 2008 at 8:32 pm
(55) Zack says:

I sit and wonder why so many people get fired up about science hasnt science contradicted itself so many times before. If science leads you to believe anything and ten years later it has been discredited by science. — Jimmy Crow on October 22, 2008 at 4:36 am

You don’t say exactly what scientific beliefs you have in mind, so I guess you’re thinking of scientific fads like the germ theory of disease, antibiotic medicines, municipal water systems, sewage treatment, and so on. Boy, remember those long-ago days when we drank clean water and avoided contact with our own poop, just because those nutty scientists told us to?

Why put your faith in science instead of Jesus Christ whoms life and death sound outlandish but never has been discreditd. — Jimmy Crow on October 22, 2008 at 4:36 am

This statement betrays an ignorance of the history of religion that is almost as complete as your ignorance of science. Of your command of the written word, let us not even speak.

January 5, 2009 at 2:41 am
(56) Rob says:

Sir,

Kindly provide your life’s purpose and your specific, well-documented, scientifically proven, logical proof that God does not exist. Anything else is, shall we say, faith?

Regards,
Rob

January 5, 2009 at 3:16 am
(57) Rob says:

Sir,

Jesus said of those who will never listen to his offer of FREE forgiveness of their sins (per as God visiting Earth as a human being and placing himself on a cross as payment for all of man’s sins)…

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

You discount everything you cannot evidence in some form, therefore you show yourself as blind; scientists and discoverers initially searched for facts. They did not say, “It does not exist until I [fill in the blank]. Instead, they simply explored and noted what they found.

It seems you therefore must not explore or seek discovery, other than what someone else has already found and documented. What then have you discovered that makes you an authority of anything?

The Earth and all plant, animal and human life in it, the direct placement of the Moon, Earth and Sun to provide the perfect balance of light/heat. Please explain how this happened?

The fact that the universe cannot be measured, for it has no end that can be proven… please explain so we can understand your wisdom?

You might very likely conclude the Earth is flat (as was the “fact” for hundreds of years before, with people even being killed for believing otherwise), yet Job stated (in a book PROVEN, with many copies, to exist long before man had ANY possibility of knowing the Earth was round), “He spreads the skies over unformed space, hangs the earth out in empty space.”

What is your explanation for this factual information?

The bottom line is this; you write this blog, waste your time and mine, tell everyone else to provide you with ‘proof’, but you provide nothing in return. Does this about sum up your thought process?

The clear ‘fact’ is this also; you have know interest in discovery or exploration. It is like someone saying to you, “there is water over this hill!” Yet you respond, “Prove it!”. The reply, “Come over here and see for yourself!” You say, “No, bring it to me!” They say, “No, you get your own water!”

Jesus said, “Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

You have the Bible, plenty of archaeology about numerous civliations, thousands or hundreds of thousands of facts surrounding history (i.e. Romans, Israel, Egypt, Greeks, Persions, etc).

Based strictly on facts, if you do not believe that Jesus existed (for example), then you must conclude Ceasar, Alexander and others did not as well. Why? Because there is enough proof that ALL of them existed.

If then, Jesus DID exist, WHY do you not apply your human intelligence to exploration and discovery? Why do you limit yourself? Worst of all, THINK seriously…. what if you are wrong?

My friend, as a 25 year Christian with all types of trials and sufferings, I have learned much about the living God. Rest assured, I do not every wish anyone to go to Hell forever.

Let your common sense and curiosity kick in… just as you drive to work thinking you will get there (but many don’t every day), you already live in faith daily. In fact, you have NO idea what could happen to you on any given day, correct?

So reverse your faith, you trust there is no God now, right? Then why not take a step of faith and ask him yourself, “God, if you exist and are the Creator, please reveal youself to me.”

Please note: God will never respond to a game player (i.e. if you are God, change my car into gold!). He will only reveal Himself to the person who is serious in their quest to have a relationship with God. That person who really wants to know God exists.

If you cannot overcome your own reluctance, no one else can. Just as with Adam and Eve, it is your OWN choice. That is the mystery of free will.

I pray God will reach out and save you, doing whatever is necessary to save your soul…

Rob

January 5, 2009 at 6:27 am
(58) Austin Cline says:

Kindly provide your life’s purpose and

How is it any of your business?

your specific, well-documented, scientifically proven, logical proof that God does not exist.  

The burden of proof lies with those making the claim — i.e., the theist.

Anything else is, shall we say, faith?

Thanks for that admission on behalf of your position.

Jesus said of those who will never listen to his offer of FREE forgiveness of their sins

Since people are required to hold certain beliefs and attitudes, forgiveness is not free. So your claim is a lie.

You discount everything you cannot evidence in some form

That’s a pretty bold claim to make about a person you don’t know and have never met.

The Earth and all plant, animal and human life in it, the direct placement of the Moon, Earth and Sun to provide the perfect balance of light/heat.  Please explain how this happened?

Gravity.

The fact that the universe cannot be measured, for it has no end that can be proven… please explain so we can understand your wisdom?

I’m not aware of it having been proved that the universe is incapable of being measures. Please cite your sources.

The bottom line is this; you write this blog, waste your time and mine, tell everyone else to provide you with ‘proof’, but you provide nothing in return

I’ve provided quite a lot on this site. Tell me, how much exactly have you read that has allowed you to draw your conclusion?

The clear ‘fact’ is this also; you have know interest in discovery or exploration.  It is like someone saying to you, “there is water over this hill!”  Yet you respond, “Prove it!”.  The reply, “Come over here and see for yourself!”  You say, “No, bring it to me!”  They say, “No, you get your own water!”

I doubt you’ve read very much here; if you had, you’d realize that I’ve been a Christian and therefore have, according to your analogy, been on the other side of the hill already.

Based strictly on facts, if you do not believe that Jesus existed (for example), then you must conclude Ceasar, Alexander and others did not as well.  Why?  Because there is enough proof that ALL of them existed.

Feel free to show how the evidence for the existence of Jesus is of the same quality as that for the others.

Worst of all, THINK seriously…. what if you are wrong?

Pascal’s Wager, an apologetics argument for people who don’t think very seriously.

I pray God will reach out and save you, doing whatever is necessary to save your soul…

Since you must believe that nothing could stop your god from reaching me if it really wanted to, then you must conclude that if it hasn’t happened yet, it must be because you god hasn’t wanted it to happen yet. Ergo, praying for it to happen means praying for the occurrence of an event your god doesn’t want. Isn’t that a sin?

May 27, 2009 at 3:27 pm
(59) Shane says:

To the God fearing people. Don’t cast your pearls before swine, it is a waste of your time. Wipe the dust off your feet and continue to spread the Gospel as God intended. The harvest is great and the workers are few!

June 6, 2009 at 12:52 pm
(60) SAVED says:

“Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm.” – Winston Churchill -

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” – John 3:16 -

June 22, 2009 at 7:23 pm
(61) believer says:

Austin…when you say that gravity is responsible for the PERFECT alignment of the sun moon stars and planets, where did gravity come from. Did air decide to become gravity or was it an atom or amoeba? Also, the human body and how everything works in it…it is awesome and to say it is an accident is rather naive in my opinion. Also, this computer im typing on…did it just come together…definately not. Someone put it together. All i ask you is to try to disprove the Christian faith and the Bible because many have tried zero have succeeded and many have been saved because the could not disprove it.

June 22, 2009 at 8:17 pm
(62) Austin Cline says:

Austin…when you say that gravity is responsible for the PERFECT alignment of the sun moon stars and planets, where did gravity come from.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that gravity is responsible for a “perfect” alignment — it’s just responsible for the alignment of objects in our solar system. The alignment isn’t perfect, but rather chaotic and may spin out of control at any time.

Gravity comes from matter. Matter has mass and mass is responsible for gravity.

Did air decide to become gravity or was it an atom or amoeba?

None of the above. You don’t seem to know much about basic physics.

Also, the human body and how everything works in it…it is awesome and to say it is an accident is rather naive in my opinion.

Who says it is an “accident”?

Also, this computer im typing on…did it just come together…definately not. Someone put it together.

And since our bodies differ from computers, this helps us say that we evolved naturally.

All i ask you is to try to disprove the Christian faith and the Bible

The burden of proof lies entirely with those making claims, not with those listening. You claim that your religion and holy book are “true” in some fashion, so the burden is entirely yours to explain exactly what your position is and to support it. If you cannot, you have no right to expect others to believe you.

The only reason to ask others to disprove a position you won’t even explain is to avoid this basic responsibility — perhaps because you know you can’t shoulder it.

June 22, 2009 at 10:49 pm
(63) believer says:

all i ask is that you tell me why every single person who has tried to disprove or discredit the bible have not succeeded

June 22, 2009 at 10:51 pm
(64) believer says:

Another question…you say mass is responsible for gravity…what is responsible for mass?

June 23, 2009 at 12:07 am
(65) my God is great! says:

austin…have you read the bible?

June 23, 2009 at 6:18 am
(66) Austin Cline says:

all i ask is that you tell me why every single person who has tried to disprove or discredit the bible have not succeeded

How do you know they haven’t?

Another question…you say mass is responsible for gravity…what is responsible for mass?

I already answered that.

austin…have you read the bible?

Several times. Several translations. In a couple of different languages.

June 23, 2009 at 12:09 pm
(67) believer says:

ok since matter has mass and mass is responsible for gravity then what is responsible for matter? Also, you mean to tell me that the way our body works just happened to work the awesome way it does. Also i would like you to tell me your theory of how we all came into existence.

June 23, 2009 at 1:35 pm
(68) Austin Cline says:

ok since matter has mass and mass is responsible for gravity then what is responsible for matter?

The Big Bang.

Also, you mean to tell me that the way our body works just happened to work the awesome way it does.

No, the phrase “just happened to work that way” is another way of saying “accident.” Our bodies evolved to adapt to our environment; ergo, they work well in our environment.

Also i would like you to tell me your theory of how we all came into existence.

I don’t have my own “theory” of how we came into existence any more than I have my own theory about the origin of earthquakes and clouds. I accept the fruits of scientific research on these matters, as any rational adult would.

June 23, 2009 at 2:58 pm
(69) believer says:

The “big bang”….so tell me this…what caused the “big bang?” If we evolve to adapt to our environment, why after so long do we still die of the same things or get sick from the same things we used to? And we do still get sick from the same things we used to because we have to get vaccinated to keep from getting sick. We don’t evolve. We have been the same since God created human beings. The sunrise holds so much beauty and you still say there is not a supreme being. What other proof do you need? If I am right and you are wrong, what do you have to lose? Eternity. If you are right and I am wrong what have I lost? Maybe 80 years give or take a few. Who has the most to loose here?

June 23, 2009 at 3:51 pm
(70) Austin Cline says:

The “big bang”….so tell me this…what caused the “big bang?”

The best current research suggests that there was no cause.

If we evolve to adapt to our environment, why after so long do we still die of the same things or get sick from the same things we used to?

You are still falsely assuming our bodies are perfect. Successful adaptation merely requires that one live long enough to reproduce sufficiently, not that one live forever or be completely free from disease. After all, bacteria and viruses have also evolved to adapt to us.

And we do still get sick from the same things we used to because we have to get vaccinated to keep from getting sick.

Hint: bacteria and viruses also evolve, which means they evolve ways to survive our attempts to stop them. Curious that you would use a good example of evolution in action as if it were a reason to doubt evolution.

We don’t evolve.

Prove it.

We have been the same since God created human beings.

Prove it.

The sunrise holds so much beauty and you still say there is not a supreme being.

Please support your implicit assertion that beauty somehow demonstrates the existence of a “supreme being.”

What other proof do you need?

How about proof that actually links the premise with the conclusion?

If I am right and you are wrong, what do you have to lose? Eternity. If you are right and I am wrong what have I lost? Maybe 80 years give or take a few. Who has the most to loose here?

Pascal’s Wager, quite possibly the most intellectually and morally bankrupt of all arguments which apologists have to offer. What’s worse, you’re offering the most simplistic and unreasonable form of this argument. If you’re going to try to offer an argument to justify belief in your god, don’t you think you should research it a bit in order to present it in its best form and be able to address the most common challenges?

June 23, 2009 at 4:09 pm
(71) believer says:

there was no cause of the big bang…that’s the funniest thing i have heard all week. The big bang happened but there is no cause of it, that right there is proof of itself that the big bang theory is a dead end road. How does someone as intelligent as you believe that something happened but nothing caused it to happened. For there to be an effect there has to be a cause. You believe something as far fetched as that but you cant believe something so simple as a supreme being that is responsible for the creation of the universe.In regards to the earth and the universe to say the least the cause is that God spoke it into existance. We had to start from somewhere, God is that somewhere. It is the only logical explanation. Any other explanation leads to something happening but no one can explain what caused that something to happen. I feel for you and pray for you that your eyes will be opened before it is too late. Satan will continue to blind you by these ridiculous theories.

June 23, 2009 at 4:23 pm
(72) Austin Cline says:

there was no cause of the big bang…that’s the funniest thing i have heard all week.

Personal amusement and incredulity isn’t much of a counter-argument.

The big bang happened but there is no cause of it, that right there is proof of itself that the big bang theory is a dead end road.

Then I’m sure you can explain where physicists have gone wrong.

How does someone as intelligent as you believe that something happened but nothing caused it to happened. For there to be an effect there has to be a cause.

In our universe, yes. That’s required by the context of space, time, and natural laws. However, the Big Bang did not occur in the context of our space, time, and natural laws. The same constraints did not apply.

For there to be “cause and effect,” you must have time. However, the Big Bang did not occur in time — there was no “time before” the universe any more than there is a “to the left of” the universe.

You believe something as far fetched as that but you cant believe something so simple as a supreme being that is responsible for the creation of the universe.

Simple, eh? OK, demonstrate that your god is “simple.”

Anyway, there is empirical and mathematical support for the Big Bang model of the origin of the universe. It has made predictions which have been successfully tested. Can the same be said for your belief? If not, don’t you suppose that’s a relevant difference?

In regards to the earth and the universe to say the least the cause is that God spoke it into existance.

Prove it.

We had to start from somewhere, God is that somewhere. It is the only logical explanation.

Only one? OK, prove it.

I feel for you and pray for you that your eyes will be opened before it is too late. Satan will continue to blind you by these ridiculous theories.

When a person has to resort to “Satan” as an excuse for ignoring the reality which science explains for us, it’s a sure sign that they just don’t understand what it means to present an argument grounded in facts and reason. It’s hardly different from an accused murderer denying the convergent evidence of witnesses, DNA, fingerprints, bloody clothing, and surveillance tapes by insisting that “Satan” created fake evidence to test the faith of the jury.

Well, as a member of the jury I flatly reject your “Satan Did It” defense as beyond the boundaries of all reason or common sense. I can’t view it as anything else but the last, desperate attempt of a person caught by unassailable evidence to confuse and distract rather than admit the truth like an adult. It’s not just that the evidence is against you, but all the evidence is against you — and you’re unable to even bring in a bought-and-paid-for witness to lie on the stand for you.

I notice, by the way, that you didn’t even try to prove the claims you keep making. Is that because you know you can’t but are afraid to admit it?

June 23, 2009 at 4:45 pm
(73) believer says:

i know you cant just take my word that God is real. I do appreciate how you say “my God” though because he is my God. He could be your God also if you would’nt be so blind. I believe there is nothing in you that wants to believe that God is real because you want to give man and science the credit. You probably have a problem believing that there is a God because you want to think that no other being is in control of the world you live in….but i have news there is. Here is some proof for you…the Bible prophesied if thats how you spell it that the people of Israel will scatter all over the world and then one day will return and declare theirself a nation once again. Did that not happen in 1938 or 48 i believe. It most certainly did.

June 23, 2009 at 5:01 pm
(74) Austin Cline says:

You probably have a problem believing that there is a God because you want to think that no other being is in control of the world you live in….

Not true.

Instead of making all kinds of assumptions about others, maybe you should consider asking questions.

June 23, 2009 at 5:03 pm
(75) believer says:

what do you have to say about the last few sentences of my last comment?

June 23, 2009 at 5:31 pm
(76) Austin Cline says:

what do you have to say about the last few sentences of my last comment?

A genuine prophecy has to be specific about an event that isn’t likely to occur naturally. It would not, for example, be a genuine prophecy for me to say that you will “move around” tomorrow — it’s neither specific nor unusual (i.e., not something that’s easy for the average person to imagine happening).

Your “Israel prophecy” fails on both counts. It’s not specific enough about where and when and it’s not unusual to imagine a people being driven away from their homes then coming back — especially if the writer is a Jew who has a political interest in encouraging just that.

Do you have anything better?

Note: expecting me to answer your questions and address every last thing you write is exceptionally arrogant given just how many questions and challenges of mine you have deliberately ignored.

June 23, 2009 at 5:52 pm
(77) believer says:

haha…the fact is that the bible prophesied that it would happen and it DID happen. That was nothing like saying i am going to move around tomorrow. It was indeed much out of the ordinary. As of 2007 i see that only about 2.5% of the worlds population are atheists…wonder why people have a hard time believing some of this stuff?

June 23, 2009 at 6:13 pm
(78) Austin Cline says:

haha…the fact is that the bible prophesied that it would happen and it DID happen.

Then I’m a prophet, too.

It was indeed much out of the ordinary.

OK, prove it.

Or don’t post any more, because constantly refusing to answer any questions or challenges is ensures that you don’t end up contributing any of real substance or value here.

June 23, 2009 at 6:27 pm
(79) Austin Cline says:

you never answered my question from earlier…if I am right and you are wrong, what have you lost?

I did answer: follow the link I gave you.

Future comments of yours which don’t even try to answer the multitude of questions posed to you will be summarily deleted.

June 26, 2009 at 3:19 pm
(80) Drew says:

Believer:
Those who have pointed out the un-truth of the Christian religion have succeeded quite well. In Canada, 22% of the population, as of 2008, no longer believe in any gods. The percentage is above 30% in both Australia and New Zealand. Europe as a whole is now 50% atheist. Even in the United States, the percentage who are atheist is over 10%. This is hundreds of millions of people in societies that, 100 years ago, consisted almost 100% of people claiming to be Christian.

Today Christianity has lost many of the forms of persecution it used to be able to use against heretics, sceptics, etc. There is still bigotry by Christians towards atheists, and in some places like the US many atheists still suffer physical, emotional, and property crimes from Christians; but overall, such overt violence and harm is being reduced. As that acceptance of religious bigotry decreases, the erosion of Christianity will only increase. I’ve seen it in my lifetime.

No, those who have shown Christianity to be false have not succeeded to your satisfaction, or to the satisfaction of hundreds of millions of others. But they have not only helped hundreds of millions of people to reject Christianity, they have also moderated and watered Christianity down to the point where it is a de-clawed, liberalised, and modified version of what it used to be – the European equivalent of what Islam still is in much of the Third World. Atheism hasn’t won the war yet, but it has won all the battles for the past 200 years, and it’s rate of success is increasing both in tempo and in strength. Get used to it, because, no matter where you live in North America, Europe, or Australasia, Christians will be a minority by the end of this century.

June 26, 2009 at 3:56 pm
(81) Buddyboy says:

#57 says, “all I ask is that you disprove the Christian faith and the Bible”

give me a break – the christian faith is contrived; it’s all borrowed from other sources, mostly from the ‘mystery’ religions that were popular at the time. As far as the bible, anyone who bothers to actually read it would plainly see that it’s NOT the “word of god”

June 26, 2009 at 4:06 pm
(82) Buddyboy says:

#7 – “faith” –

faith means believing what you know isn’t so – there is NO evidence to support it

June 26, 2009 at 4:12 pm
(83) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Joshua (40), you say the universe is extremely ordered and symmetric; please explain. Also, you say that the stars and planets are perfect spheres; they are not; centriful force, resulting from their rotation, expands them at their equators, thus compressing them into oblate spheroids.

June 26, 2009 at 4:34 pm
(84) Paulito says:

“there was no cause of the big bang…that’s the funniest thing i have heard all week. The big bang happened but there is no cause of it, that right there is proof of itself that the big bang theory is a dead end road”.

If everything needs a creator or a cause, then please tell us in clear terms WHO CREATED OR CAUSED GOD? If you can’t answer that, then here’s laughing back at you.

As for the “perfections” of the human body, why do so many people have bad eyesight? Why do we suffer with arthritis, heart disease and cancer?

June 26, 2009 at 4:58 pm
(85) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Rob, please don’t be so critical of science; even you Jesus said that the Earth is flat.

June 26, 2009 at 5:10 pm
(86) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Rob (52) (56) (59) (64) (66): If I thought that you have attained a sufficient educational level, or that you are intellectually competent to understand, I would suggest that you read an elementary textbook on cosmology. It would answer your questions, even the ones about which you laugh, thus showing your ignorance to those who do understand.

June 26, 2009 at 7:26 pm
(87) Zayla says:

Oh Austin, let the moro, um “believer” come back. You don’t have to waste your time with him, but don’t take our fun away. It’s like a kitten with a ball of string.

I personally find it amusing watching someones argument melt like the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz as they back themselves into the “lord works in mysterious ways” and “Satan did it” corner.

It’s almost as much fun as batting an “ID” delusional lunatic around.

June 26, 2009 at 8:03 pm
(88) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Correct, Zayla (82). Reminds me of a verse from an old proverb “He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool; ignore him.

Intelligent Design? If I were a Creationist, I would never use Intelligent to modify Design, just Design. Intelligent is too easy to refute. For example, give one (1) logical reason why an intelligent god would create the toenail fungus.

June 26, 2009 at 8:24 pm
(89) Jolly Jack says:

After 82 comments, there’s not much left for me to say.
Apparently, christian gullibility is still alive and well in the world, but it is definitely ailing. I give it another 50 years.
The foundation on which christianity rests is the Bible. Without the Bible, christianity would wither on the vine.
Despite all the christian hype, the Bible is a proven compendium of falsities, errors, distortions, contradictions, inconsistences, legends, fables, and fairy tales, derived from pagan religions and practices that were in vogue long before the advent of christianity.
No matter what “devout” christians may say, they practice and follow such pagan rituals and beliefs even today.
With regard to Ron Wyatt, Tim (38) rightly says that Wyatt claimed to have solved just about every biblical mystery that ever surfaced, and has proven to be a great embarrassment to the SDA church.
He was nothing less than a charlatan.

FAITH: “Firm belief in something for which there is NO PROOF.”

June 26, 2009 at 9:11 pm
(90) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Rob, there is a typo in (80); I meant to say “your Jesus”, not “you Jesus”.

June 28, 2009 at 12:20 pm
(91) Paulito says:

Also, note how the posters who make the “need for a cause/creator” argument automatically mean christianity by default….
If there is a “creator god”, why does that validate christianity and not islam, judaism and hinduism among others?
If god does exist, and did create the universe, it doesn’t mean that these people have picked the right religion…after all, they can’t all be correct.

June 28, 2009 at 6:13 pm
(92) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Rob (52); If I randomly picked up a book and read “He spreads the skies over unformed space, hangs the earth out in empty space.”, I would not have even the vaguest idea what the writer meant. I see no hint that Job is even talking about the earth’s shape, whether spherical, flat, cubic, tetragonal, square, hexagonal, orthorhombic, saddle shape, or anything else. Maybe you can explain how Job’s comment depicts shape. A little modern cosmological research will show you that space definitely is not empty. Jesus must not have read the Bible; he obviously did not think that the earth is spherical. Please read my comment (80).

June 28, 2009 at 8:14 pm
(93) Lloyd says:

Believer,
That’s a great name. It is very descriptive of your intellect. You remind me of a man that I was reading about, Herbert Dingle. He laughed and pointed to Einstein’s theory as evidence of his stupidity. If you are interested in learning about something that has not been disproven including any discovery of conradictory facts, (unlike the bible) read up on the theory of relativity. Another similar story is that of the discovery of Solar Wind. Scientists and thinking lay persons that accept their theorys see science as the best description of a phenomonon that we currently have. This description will change over time as tests are devised to refine or possibly refute it entirely.

June 29, 2009 at 1:14 pm
(94) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Lloyd (88). Dingle gave us something to laugh about in physics classes, when I was in Graduate School. The descrepancies that he thought he found in Einstein’s theories were such that he should have been embarrassed when he was proved in error; I would consider most as either childish and/or ignorant. Example: Dingle algebraically inverted partial derivates, in at least one case, and his result proved Einstein had made an error. A student, taking even an introductory course in differential equations, knows that the inversion was a “no, no!!”

The solar wind was confirmed several years ago. If you are interested, click on NASA/ Marshall Solar Physics. A burst of solar wind was scheduled to arrive on Earth on or about today (6-29-09). I haven’t had time to check it today.

June 29, 2009 at 10:11 pm
(95) Zack says:

haha…the fact is that the bible prophesied that it would happen and it DID happen. — believer on June 23, 2009 at 5:52 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

Israel was created by a United Nations mandate from a chunk of the crumbling British Empire, in an attempt to address the problem of illegal immigration of Jews to Palestine.

If the creation of Israel required divine intervention, then what do you have to say about the independence of India? How about the formation of Pakistan, Senegal, and other modern states carved from the ruins of dying empires in that same post-World War II era?

June 30, 2009 at 1:00 pm
(96) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Seems like I remember Jesus prophesying that he would return while some standing in the crowd, which he was addressing, were still alive.

1 Corinthians 13:8. Paul prophesied that all prophesies would fail; this includes his prophesy…

July 1, 2009 at 10:37 am
(97) Bobby says:

I just stumbled upon this so don’t expect a reply to anything you may answer with.

1 Corinthians 13: 8 says “Prophesies and unknown languages will become usless, but love lasts forever.”

These things have become useless because where are the prophets today, where are all these people as in the biblical times who have “strange” spiritual gifts. Paul was just writing that these things would cease to exist, but love lasts forever. He certainly wasn’t saying that all prophesies are and will always be rubbish.

If you are a skeptic I respect that because so many people fall into Christianity with luke warm beliefs instead of asking difficult questions. But I also believe many athiests fall into passivity because they are terrified at exploring Christianity with their full heart. I of course wish for you to find truth, not because I am obligated to do good works, but because it has changed my life so why would I not want to share it. When I had my first In and Out Burger I wanted everyone to know how amazing it was. Same principle. I know it to be truth because asking God into my heart transformed my life. We can argue theology all day and neither of our opinions would change, but how can anyone argue with life change. To you Christians, your testimony is your most powerful tool. Let it be genuine so that people see truth in God’s power. I, and many other believers who did not grow up in the church have been torn from our darkest gloom and had our chains snapped free. Actions and words are often empty, churches and “followers of christ” are definitly flawed and corrupt, but the Bible is truth. God sees through all this, he sees the heart. I apologize for how the church has given many bad taste, but that is representative of God. God promises that those who seek truth will find it if they ask him to reveal it to them. Why would the God who created everything not want people to know him and his truths? My only encouragements to the many skeptics is to soften your justified wall against the church, look yourself in the mirror asking yourself what you really believe about the most important question in life, and ask God to reveal truth to you. He will.

July 1, 2009 at 3:07 pm
(98) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Bobby (92). Which god? Archaeologists/anthropologists have cataloged over 50,000; not one is more probable than any other. Their characteristics differ over a wide range; however, yours is the most despicable ever invented by the deranged mind of man. If one exists, the probability that you have chosen the correct one is rather low.

I grew up in the Presbyterian church, and graduated from a Presbyterian private high school. I was never in gloom before or since I became an atheist; actually I have always been a rather happy, outgoing, fulfilled person, but science snapped my chains and freed me from superstition almost 60 years ago.

July 1, 2009 at 4:43 pm
(99) Austin Cline says:

God promises that those who seek truth will find it if they ask him to reveal it to them.

Been there, done that. Now I’m an atheist.

July 1, 2009 at 5:22 pm
(100) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Austin, I asked god, and he answered “bob, i ain’t in hevin, i ain’t hear, i ain’t know wher; jist beleve, or go to hell!!”. I was surprised to learn that he and his believers have attained the same educational level.

July 1, 2009 at 6:15 pm
(101) Atheist GeophysicistBob says:

I meant to say HIGH educational level (95)

July 2, 2009 at 1:28 am
(102) Robert T. Bobar says:

The evidence under Aqaba clearly proves the existence of The God of Moses!!! But if anyone would tend to doubt let me just point out that the papyrus of Ipuwer and the story of Sinuhe, as well as the infant burials found at Kahun; shows that there is more to this than some kind of trick. A 12 dynasty would also fit nicely with the evidence found at Jericho and other Canaanite sites. People believe all kinds of things irrespective the facts but as me, I cannot just forget the evidence I know.

July 2, 2009 at 11:36 am
(103) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Robert T Bobar (97). I would love to see that evidence under Aquaba. Please cite a reference so I can confirm it.

July 2, 2009 at 5:31 pm
(104) naturalist says:

No matter how convinced a Christian(or true believer of any religion) is that their personal experience is real and confirms that the Bible is factual and the Christian God exists, their experience is entirely subjective and cannot be verified or exactly duplicated by others that their experience is real(objectively and externally).

What many believers fail to consider or perhaps even accept is the context that humans and all other life on this planet live in.

The reality of this context is that we live on a infintesimally small planet in the midst of a universe so large in time-space dimensions(10′s of billions of light years) that we can barely comprehend its dimensions.
Everything that our species consider as true have been conceived to this point from the confines of one small planet and from observations of telescopes and space probes.

Yet true believers are arrogant enough to proclaim even with such limited personal experience and subjective faith that they alone know the “truth”.

Science of course is imperfect but at it’s essence is the unending and revisable (a strength, not a weakness)quest for knowledge and truth. Because of our limited vantage point and mobility in the universe this quest for completeness will probably be unending .

Religion will not accept that truth is incomplete and that is it’s abject failure; the incapacity to grow(up) and realize that current knowledge and “truths” are changeable approximations of reality.

Fundamentalists and true believers see only what they wish to believe is true and will not consider that their beliefs are just a very,very small thing(ad infinitum) compared to a universe that is so vast and unknown.

It is the ultimate hubris to believe that your subjective faith and feelings are the final arbiter and authority on truth.

July 2, 2009 at 5:46 pm
(105) Zayla says:

Hi. I have nothing to say but I hated to see this stalled at 99 posts. It bothered my sense of order.

Let’s see, the RCC is evil and should stop every single thing they do until they right the wrong, to the best of their ability of the mass serial rapes they committed and covered up over the last century. OK, I’ll be reasonable, since 1950.

July 2, 2009 at 7:29 pm
(106) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

naturalist and Zayla. I gree with both of you 100%.

July 3, 2009 at 7:03 am
(107) naturalist says:

Thanks AtheistGeophysicistBob,

I appreciate your posts also and by the way geology is one my of favorite sciences.

July 3, 2009 at 11:39 am
(108) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

naturalist. Thanks, I appreciate your response(102). I am very impressed with your comments (99. I have not seen any that were better thought-out and presented on this site. Also, I am happy to learn that geology is one of your favorite sciences. Do you have a favorite geological subject, or just geology in general? I have worked in several areas of geology/geophysics,from mining to teaching, and enjoyed all.

July 3, 2009 at 5:14 pm
(109) naturalist says:

Thanks much again AGBob,

I think that a lot of the my thoughts on atheism, agonosticism have been formed through my reading of astronomy,cosmology, geology and of course evoloutionary biology. Discovering the reality of deep time and what a vast universe we a part of can make you question (if one is curious and open to change)many traditional concepts that religion and popular culture has promoted or enforced through indoctrination as true.

I am interested in geology in general, but plate tectonics is a fascinating subject that I have read a lot about online and in texts. I follow a number of geology blogs like AboutGeology.com.,ScienceBlogs and others. From reading the essays of many of these practicing earth scientists and teachers,it is evident that geological work and the diverse environments you explore can be very interesting. I am a electronics service technician, so my interest in geology and other sciences has been for the continued enjoyment of self-learning.

Glad that you have had a satisfying career.

July 3, 2009 at 8:37 pm
(110) naturalist says:

Here’s Richard Feynman, the late physicist in a video with a very well thought out and rational view of the universe.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/richard_feynman_tells_it_like.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knDXAr4ltMA&feature=PlayList&p=84E830BC93398EA6&index=0&playnext=1

Wouldn’t be nice to have more clear articulate minds like this be embraced by our media and poplar culture than the mindless drivel that comes from evangelists and other talking heads.

July 3, 2009 at 10:26 pm
(111) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

I enjoyed your comments, naturalist. I also am interested in cosmology; I suspect that you know that cosmology ties into geology at the point where the debris circling the sun first clumped to begin the formation of Earth.

I almost had the chance to hear 2 lectures by the cosmologist, Alan Guth, on April 7. Fate intervened. He spoke a couple of blocks from my primary ophthalmologist/ophthalmological surgeon’s office in Cambridge. Guth, as you probably know, is a professor at MIT. I am rather busy tonight, but will comment further tomorrow. If you are interested in some of my old geological stories, I will trade e-mail addrsses with you. I suspect you have some interesting stories, also.

July 4, 2009 at 3:08 pm
(112) Robert Bobar says:

This page will not let me respond nor present proofs because its biased

July 5, 2009 at 12:55 am
(113) fauxrs says:

This page wont let you respond? Seems to me you just responded. All you need do is post a link to whatever evidence you have.

July 5, 2009 at 7:55 am
(114) naturalist says:

Thanks AGBob,

I have sent Austin a email with my address and hope he can forward it to you.

Thanks for the reference to Alan Guth who I am not familiar with.

July 5, 2009 at 9:08 am
(115) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

naturalist (109). Hope you had a great 4th.

bobgiles34@aol.com

July 7, 2009 at 4:34 pm
(116) Richie Cunningham says:

I have been reading your argument/debate with believer and I’ve been seeing you’re not really explaining yourself and seem to be dodging questions. “Give me an example of this”, you’ll say. Ok, here’s one. Believer said “you say mass is responsible for gravity… what is responsible for mass?” where you replied “I already answered that” and in fact, at that time, you had not answered it. You answered it later on briefly by saying Big Bang. But that is just a brief example and not the main point in my response.

“We don’t evolve”.. you ask to prove it. We all have the same evidence. The problem is the point of view. Your fellow believers see an extinct ape-kind and call it a missing link to the human race. We see an extinct ape-kind and call it an extinct ape.

The accident that was mentioned is referring to the Big Bang. The belief in a monumental explosion (a huge random accident) sending matter and ant-matter in every direction (although the matter and anti-matter should cancel each other out leaving only energy)… somehow these countless bits of elements and matter began forming stars and planets over time (although if an explosion happened at one point and everything shot straight from this point, how are they crashing into each other to form anything else) … and then at some point on a planet we’ll call Earth, there was a non-living mixture of chemicals that through time became life and from that non-life to life scientific impossibility developed animals then eventually “cave men” then humans as we see today. Somehow these cave men all “evolved” into the many various cultures that we see today and from ugh’s and ooh’s developed the many languages we see today. Yes, seems reasonable.

Where did physicists go wrong in coming up with the Big Bang theory? They weren’t there. The billions of years theory is based on multiple assumptions devised from just a small period of scientific research. (1800’s to now) Where is this empirical and mathematical support for the Big Bang model and how are they “successfully tested”? How can you know if it’s correct? The point is, you can’t. These are man’s ideas based on faulty assumptions.
The easy return argument from you is that we weren’t there when God created the universe either… however, the first man created was there towards the end of the creation week. God the creator was there. We believe that the Bible is written by the inspiration of God, not man (II Timothy 3:16) and that is why we believe the Bible as it is written as the infallible word of God.

We are forced to learn about big bang, evolution, etc. in schools. It would do you good to research the other side of the story… not just by reading the Bible “in several languages”. Research to see what other religious sources are saying as to why they believe the way they believe. Answers in Genesis (not in high regard with science and naturally so since AiG does not believe in the Big Bang)… it may do you some good to research them. Walter Veith is a scientist who became a Christian and gives a great lecture about the physical evidence on earth showing how there definitely could have been a world wide flood. We’re presenting another side. It is up to you to accept it or not.

In fact, all our job is as Christians is to tell people that there was a man named Jesus who died for your sins and that’s all our responsibility it is. It is up to you to accept it or not.

Unfortunately my time is up and I was not able to read any of the posts past June 23. Good luck to all.

July 7, 2009 at 4:51 pm
(117) Austin Cline says:

I have been reading your argument/debate with believer and I’ve been seeing you’re not really explaining yourself and seem to be dodging questions.  

It would be nice if you could name one.

“Give me an example of this”, you’ll say.  Ok, here’s one.  Believer said “you say mass is responsible for gravity… what is responsible for mass?” where you replied “I already answered that” and in fact, at that time, you had not answered it.  

Yes, I did in #57: “Matter has mass and mass is responsible for gravity.” What is responsible for mass? Matter.

“We don’t evolve”.. you ask to prove it.  We all have the same evidence.  

Then provide the evidence.

The accident that was mentioned is referring to the Big Bang.  

Feel free to demonstrate that it is an “accident.”

Where did physicists go wrong in coming up with the Big Bang theory?  They weren’t there.  

So if someone isn’t there to observe something, it’s not possible to come up with an accurate description of what happened?

The billions of years theory is based on multiple assumptions devised from just a small period of scientific research.  

Feel free to demonstrate where their reasoning and/or math is wrong.

Where is this empirical and mathematical support for the Big Bang model and how are they “successfully tested”?  

Do you really want the names of some texts where it is explained?

Presumably, before you came to the conclusion that the Big Bang is wrong you made your own study of this. Any serious study would have included the writings of the scientists who explain the Big Bang. So, you must know the titles of basic, explanatory text books. So, you don’t need titles from me.

But you should be able to demonstrate how and where their explanations go wrong.

How can you know if it’s correct?  The point is, you can’t.  

Can’t? OK, prove it.

These are man’s ideas based on faulty assumptions.  

Feel free to demonstrate which assumptions are faulty in what way.

We are forced to learn about big bang, evolution, etc. in schools.  

You are also forced to learn about relativity, plate tectonics, etc. Is there any part of science that you accept?

It would do you good to research the other side of the story… not just by reading the Bible “in several languages”.  Research to see what other religious sources are saying as to why they believe the way they believe.  

I have read the scriptures and apologetics of other religions as well. They are no more believable than Christianity.

Answers in Genesis (not in high regard with science and naturally so since AiG does not believe in the Big Bang)… it may do you some good to research them.  

I have.

July 8, 2009 at 8:10 am
(118) naturalist says:

Richie Cunningham said

“In fact, all our job is as Christians is to tell people that there was a man named Jesus who died for your sins and that’s all our responsibility it is.”

How perfectly self-incriminating. This could be a succient description of the intellctual laziness,irresponsibility and narcissism of the fundamentalist mindset.

Simple irresponsible excuse for everything in the world from war,poverty to environmental degradation…God did it…It’s God’s will.

Bullsh*t.

July 9, 2009 at 6:33 pm
(119) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Richie Cunningham (111). The Bible is infallible. Jesus told his disciples that the Earth is flat; either it is flat, or he lied. Which?

July 9, 2009 at 8:02 pm
(120) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

My comment (114). That is not the 1st time that I have made the comment. I am waiting for a Bible scholar to say “No, he did not.” or “Prove it.”

July 9, 2009 at 8:50 pm
(121) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Richie Cunningham (111). It would be difficult for me to say that anyone died, if he only remained dead for a few hours.

July 14, 2009 at 3:46 pm
(122) John Hanks says:

Science throws out the trash. Religion never does.

July 14, 2009 at 4:08 pm
(123) Todd says:

i was going to reply, but i realized it would take hours and hours i don’t have. Richie’s semi-educated nonsense is just too much to handle.

July 14, 2009 at 5:08 pm
(124) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Richie Cunningham (111). I can give you all of the references you need to both empirical and mathematical (which I suspect you will not understand) confirmations of several (there are more than one) Big Bang theories; first, I want you to tell me whether or not Jesus lied about the flat earth.

July 15, 2009 at 1:26 am
(125) Marc says:

One simple question. Why do xians always attempt to indict us by asserting lack of scientific evidence for big bang, evolution, etc., when they don’t feel they need a shred of scientific research to support their theory? Seriously curious.

July 15, 2009 at 2:27 am
(126) Zack says:

We are forced to learn about big bang, evolution, etc. in schools. — Richie Cunningham on July 7, 2009 at 4:34 pm

I am sorry to hear that you were at some point forced to learn. I hope you have recovered from the trauma.

However, no doubt your frightening experience has a least had the result that you are intimately familiar with what scientists have to say about the Big Bang, evolution, and other topics that vex some theists.

Perhaps you can share some of that information, rather than simply regurgitating the talking points dispensed on creationist websites and books of facile apologetics?

July 15, 2009 at 4:41 pm
(127) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Richie Cunningham (111), you can go to your local library and find any information that you desire about the various Big Bang models, mathematical and empirical support, and how they are “successfully tested”, in peer reviewed theoretical physics and cosmological journals; obviously, you have not been doing your homework.

In order for a particle and antiparticle to annihilate, they must be within less than one (1) de Broglie wavelength; either you or your cosmological mentor seems to have forgotten. The calculation is rather simple; ask your mentor to calculate the de Broglie wavelength of an electron one (1) nanosecond after a Big Bang; you may be surprised.

July 16, 2009 at 3:17 am
(128) Tom Edgar says:

Even I would hesitate to take on AGB, no wonder
Richie Cunningham as gone to ground..

July 16, 2009 at 11:58 am
(129) ay-v t.C.a says:

Austin u nid Christ bro,,,u realy need Him to open your eyes…the bible says “trust in the Lord with all your herat and lean not on your own understanding”(Proverbs 3:5 NIV)

July 16, 2009 at 12:03 pm
(130) ay-v t.C.a says:

heart i meant Austin, and have you ever been to church?

July 16, 2009 at 12:34 pm
(131) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Tom Edgar, it seems to me that Richie Cunningham is a typical Creationist; preach and run. But what else can they do?

July 16, 2009 at 2:22 pm
(132) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

ay-v t.C.a (124). Please read Proverbs 3:7 and Romans 12:16. I think the authors have a message for you.

August 30, 2009 at 3:59 am
(133) Common Sense says:

I just thought it was funny that you have an advertisement for the Book of Mormon that’s almost bigger than the words you wrote yourself in your “blog.” Also it’s a shame you waste your energy in your belief in nothing. I felt as though my life was just wasted by these three sentences because I had to share the irony in that advertisement.

August 30, 2009 at 8:02 am
(134) Austin Cline says:

I just thought it was funny that you have an advertisement for the Book of Mormon that’s almost bigger than the words you wrote yourself in your “blog.”  

I don’t have any say over the ads here.

Also it’s a shame you waste your energy in your belief in nothing.  

I don’t believe in nothing.

Did it ever occur to you to ask people what they believe instead of just making assumptions and declarations?

I felt as though my life was just wasted by these three sentences because I had to share the irony in that advertisement.

No, your life is wasted when you behave arrogantly and presume that you don’t need to ask questions to learn anything new.

August 31, 2009 at 5:31 pm
(135) Doc Sanchez says:

I’m not so sure I’d worship a God whom I could prove or explain. Anyone that simplistic is more like an equal than a diety.
It happens that millions of people all over the world know that God exists, not because of chariot parts on the Red Sea floor or sedimentary evidence of the Great Flood, but rather because they just spoke to Him only minutes ago.
It’s a faith thing.

October 15, 2009 at 5:40 pm
(136) caseyinaustin says:

search online and you’ll find the pictures of chariot wheels. it obviously isn’t coral.

April 18, 2010 at 2:46 pm
(137) Believer in Christ says:

all scripture is inspired by God 2 Timothy 3:16
It (the bible) was written over 1400 years ago.
It was written by 40 different authors.
It contains 66 books, 1,189 chapters, and 31,173 verses.
It was written on 3 different continents.
It was written in 3 different languages. (Hebrew, Greek, and Aramic)
It has been translated into over 1,200 languages.
It is the #1 best selling book of ALL-TIME.
It contains 0 contradictions/mistakes!!!!
The odds of 40 different authors agreeing on a single subject are one in… 1,099,511,627,777 to 1!
This is just one of many facts that proves that the bible is true!

May 23, 2010 at 11:29 am
(138) gary roberts says:

to believe is to believe in something that you can not see. that is true faith in the god we believe in. but it is nice to see god at work every day and the work thousands of years ago too. BELIEVE in the lord jesus christ. and you will bee saved. that is what it is all about. Read Jhon 3:16.

June 20, 2010 at 8:33 am
(139) marc hunter says:

can u prove there is a god. no one will ever know for sure. this arguement will continue for centuries unless he cracks open the sky and declares himself to everyone. personaly its all a lot of rubbish made up bk when so that there where answers to the unknown, now science can prove most things their reli is no need for the bible, or any holy book.

August 16, 2010 at 1:37 am
(140) Laughing at my screen says:

More than 40 authors have agreed on bunches of things, on both sides- racism, for example had many authors defending both sides- same with Christianity- bet you a million bucks that you can find 40 athirst books. And the Koran is the #1 bestselling book, get your facts straight. Yes I have been to church, and it felt so wired looking at all of the people whispering into thin air about things they want. I tried to find a god. And he/she/it/they were/was not there. So I am an athirst, until someone proves a god of any type. The red sea is actually the REED sea- it was a mistranslation from ancient Hebrew. It was a sgallowish lake, that, when a strong desert wind ripped across it, made it just shallow enough to walk across. The wind died down sometime after Moses+ company crossed, and the Egyptians, maybexan hour or so behind them, tried to cross, and drowned (heavy armor) so the chariots in the red sea, if the do exist and are real, are irrelevant to this argument. Also, there are pictures online of Bigfoot, is he real? I am not accepting something due to a wild archeologist and Internet photos

August 16, 2010 at 8:21 am
(141) Laughing at the screen says:

Sorry for the spelling mistakes, my computer has an auto correct which corrects some annoying things, but I’m nearsighted so I leave it on

August 16, 2010 at 8:55 am
(142) Ewowt says:

Science – Thought the earth was flat, even though the Bible recorded it as round,1400 BC. Said that a turtle, Atlas and other such things carried it along even though the Bible recorded it as suspended by nothing, 1400 BC. Claimed the ocen was flat and sandy like a big bowl, deeper in the middle then getting shallower on the edges (until the 1800′s), the Bible recorded it as having mountains and valleys, 1400 BC. Claimed there were no springs or fountains in the ocean as the Bible recorded it as having, 1400 BC, then in 1977 during “Deep Exploration” they discovered 6 springs and fountains in a 60 mile area, less than 5% of the oceans floor. Shall we continue? When do “learned” people fianlly get it? The Bible, Gods word, told us how he set the world and when our science finally cathes up, they do not believe it. Search “evolution” and discover the fraudulent claims: how “Nebraska Man” was developed from a single tooth that later was proven to be a pigs tooth, or a Neandrathal that was found, in chain mail, or another based on a tooth, and “Lucy” proven to be a Chimpanzee and so on. The famous Horse Tree? Sorry, full of flaws, lies and misleading claims. The “dawn Horse”; alive and well in Africa, a rock badger, three toed alive today in the Americas, found in strata ABOVE and single hooved horse, it’s eventual desendent? Search the truth and you too will be as I was, turned from the lies of science to the truth of GOD. Oh, BTW, the Koran still teaches that they will someday push us of the edge of the world into space. Mohamed- dead, budist- dead, confucius- dead and the list goes on. Christ – Alive, recorded not only in the Bible, but in the text of those that wished him dead. You can ignor what is obvious because there is no accountability (YET) or accept the truth and be set free. Everyone has Life Eternal; yes, even you… question is, where will you spend it!

August 17, 2010 at 8:31 am
(143) Laughing at the screen says:

So not only has your god always existed, but his incarnation has managed to live for 2,000 years, and no one has ever seen him? Sounds like an Elvis story. Also, you say that all of these things are true. Please provide links, preferably from a mythbusters website like snopes, because that sounds like bs to me. And confucious wasn’t a god, more a spiritual leader. Do not the hindu gods supposedly live today.

Also, I find it very amusing that the only people arguing with arbiters are Christians….

August 25, 2010 at 12:40 pm
(144) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Rob (52). Please explain how Job’s statement describes a round Earth. Even if it did, it would not necessarily mean spherical; a disc is round and flat. Actually, Job does not even imply a shape. Shouldnt Jesus be the best authority on Earth’s shape? He said it is flat.

August 25, 2010 at 1:51 pm
(145) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

believer. Your many questions to Austin suggest that you haven’t done your homework. http://www.crystalinks.com/bigbang.html will discuss all and more, which you might still want answered.

August 25, 2010 at 2:34 pm
(146) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Ewowt (137). Please provide references from both the Bible and peer-reviewed publications for all your statements.

August 25, 2010 at 3:41 pm
(147) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Richie Cunningham, in comment (122), I requested that you ask your mentor to calculate the de Broglie wavelength of an electron one (1) nanosecond after a big bang. If he did it, were you surprised?

August 25, 2010 at 6:10 pm
(148) Dave Y. says:

For (1) Tommy says:
And MAYBE they are real chariot wheels? exactly what proof do you have that their Egyptian? what proof do you have that these wheels chased jews?
And the FACT that the words MISTRANSLATED from old texts weren’t the words for the red sea but for a swamp on the way to the sinia!
The xian trollers that come to this site keep proving them selves to be fools that accept every mistake the church or their pastor makes to above the need to be fixed and pure reality, this is why people that can actually think ignore you as fools and consider you to followers of liars!

August 25, 2010 at 7:57 pm
(149) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Richie Cunningham (111). The Universe had a brief period of rapid exponential expansion (the Big Bang), called inflation; it was not a monumental explosion.

August 26, 2010 at 3:36 pm
(150) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Tom Edgar (123). I think we need to add believer and Ewowt to our list of preach and runners! Will these people never learn that most posters do not take statements on FAITH?

August 26, 2010 at 6:58 pm
(151) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Believer in Christ (132). Please explain the method that you used to calculate the odds of 40 authors agreeing on the same subject. The correct answer is 40!(40 factorial), if there were only 40 manuscripts, and they were randomly chosen from among many that wrote about the same subject. I immediately noticed an error; the answer to 5! (120) and greater must end in 0. Your calculated odds are many orders of magnitude too low.

August 28, 2010 at 3:23 am
(152) P Smith says:

The moronic godbots are claiming that a chariot wheel found at the bottom of the Red Sea “proves exodus happened”?

You’ve got to be kidding.

Are those imbeciles so ill-educated that they don’t know there were sea-faring nations more than 3000 years ago? That some of the boats might have have had chariots and other cargo on board when they sunk in the Red Sea?

The depths of stupidity amongst such morons seems to be a bottomless pit.

.

August 28, 2010 at 4:02 am
(153) Ramli says:

Since July 16 2007 you guys had been arguing and refuting and arguing again. You have kept Austin very busy and tired. There seems to be no end.

Now is midway through the month of Ramadan and I am observing the fast. Not a drop of water since sunrise. Anybody else fasting out there. It’s not restricted to theists only. Good for the mind and body. Don’t worry, you won’t die not having food and drink and …. sex during daytime.

August 28, 2010 at 1:44 pm
(154) mobathome says:

(146) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Believer in Christ (132). Please explain the method that you used to calculate the odds of 40 authors agreeing on the same subject.

From the number I’d guess Believer in Christ (132) thought there are (2^40)+1=1099511627777 ways of at least one author disagreeing with the rest , and one way for them to all agree. Of course, following his process, he should have written (2^40)-1=1099511627775 to 1, but that’s just a fencepost error. Also, Believer assumes it’s possible that all of the 40 authors would disagree in his sense of the word, and for the that possibility to make sense, there would have to be a canonical text with which all of them would disagree.

In fact, the number of ways for at least 1 of 40 authors to disagree with at least 1 of the others is (2^78)-1. The exponent 78 is the number of pairs of authors you get from 40 authors. You label a pair 1 if the two authors agree, and 0 if they disagree. Then there are 2^78 possible labelings of the pairs, only one of which consists of all 1s.

But what is this bit of trivial mathematics doing in a forum about agnosticism and atheism? Funny you should ask that. You see, once, an atheist, an bible literalist, and a mathematician walked into a bar…

August 28, 2010 at 6:21 pm
(155) AtheistGeophsicistBob says:

mobathome. I am unfamiliat with your method of calculating probability.

I stated that 40 manuscripts were randomly chosen from a group of manuscripts; I should have specified that the manuscripts not chosen all contained the same subject. They were read, and each author was found to agree or disagree on the chosen subjec. This is equivalent to reaching into a bag of strongly stirred pennies and throwing a couple of hands full on the floor. What are the odds that all will be heads or all tails? If there are 40 pennies, the answer is 1 chance in 40!. I challenge anyone to prove my answer mathematically incorrect. Forty (40) randomly chosen manuscripts, all from a group containing the same subject, with which each author can agree or disagree, is identically equivalent to the pennies; the aqnswer must be 1 chance in 40!.

August 28, 2010 at 9:52 pm
(156) AtheistGeophysicistBob says:

Please excuse the typos in (150); I typed too hurridly.

August 29, 2010 at 11:04 am
(157) Ramli says:

There you all go again. The event happened thousands of years ago when there were no newsmen around to report it, let alone digital photography and video.

So, we are left with nothing except for the holy scriptures sent down by the Creator to the chosen amongst His best of creations i.e. man.

Based on the scriptures, history scientists try to corroberate such events by what actually happened. For example, the great flood during Noah’s prophethood occured when the ice caps in the Arctic melted and the water inundated much of the areas around the Black Sea.

August 30, 2010 at 2:19 pm
(158) The Sojourner says:

@Ramli:

There you go again, insisting that whatever it says in your holy books must be fact because it says so in your holy books. Your claims of the creator handing the scriptures down, and therefore, it’s a fact, fall flat to any thinking person.

You are totally ignorant of any history or facts about the holy books and their actual origins or the mythologies therein. As usual, circular logic leaves a lot to be desired.

To which I say— prove that these scriptures are creator authored. Prove that these were not handed down by ignorant desert dwellers, who knew nothing, but wanted to explain what they couldn’t understand.

No, there weren’t any digital photos or videos at the time, so it makes it easy to fabricate tales, and call them true. It’s also easy to get those even more ignorant than the writers to believe. The mythology is a creation of sentient humans, trying to make sense of the unknown and not understood; probably as old as the dawn of imagination in man.

“If it’s in the holy books and it says so, it must be true” is not an answer to anything. Neither is “Goddidit”

September 1, 2010 at 2:02 am
(159) Ramli says:

@ Sojo

As in nature, there’s action and reaction. I see you as a reaction (opposition). So we now play on level a playing field.

October 28, 2010 at 2:05 pm
(160) Megan says:

Ramli, okay, so you believe that the great flood was caused by some melting icecaps. and you believe that the bible isn’t true. so do you also believe that Noah’s ark was just a coincidence and God just”happened” to say there was going to be a flood so Noah should build an ark? By what you have been saying, I take it you believe that the bible is just a made up fairy tale and a bunch of people got together and made it up. as you know, and as you have seen in the world, no one is perfect. the Bible does not have one mistake in it. Read it yourself. the people who “got together” to write this book must of been perfect. and if you resurch, the Bible has been around for a loooong time. in fact, they even had scrolls our tablets of books in the bible before Christ. (two THOUSAND years ago)

November 1, 2010 at 12:50 pm
(161) Cory says:

Good point Megan,
See the thing is the world is filled with pre-supposers, scoffers and willingly ignorant.
There is pre-supposers of the bible, pre supposing its true and the pre-supposers of everything else saying the bible is not true.
Funny thing is, the bible is chalked full of how things happend, including where the water came from in the flood.
We know the ground was watered by springs not by rain. Also, read Gen 1:6-8. an Expance (sky) seperating waters from water. There is water above the expance and water below the expance. There was also water below the earth. This environment would be highly rich in O2 and things would have grown much larger / live much longer. Long story short, there was probably much more land in those days then now.

A good resource for people to check out is the following series: If you are athiest, I do encourage you to check this out too… unless you don’t want to challenge yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dceMA5JdcJo

December 22, 2010 at 1:27 pm
(162) Alex says:

If someone wishes to see something, they will probably see it even if it is not there. On the other hand, if someone does not wish to see what is in front of them, they will not see it.  

I believe that there is a high possibility of these wheels being from the cataclysmic event at the Red Sea simply because there is outstanding evidence of the occurrence of other biblical events.

December 30, 2010 at 10:57 pm
(163) Matt says:

Psalm 14:1-
The fool has said in his heart there is no God.

March 25, 2011 at 5:03 am
(164) Mariella Bennett says:

At the end of my life, if I’m wrong, as a christian, I have lost nothing, but if you are wrong, and there is a God, as I believe there is, then boy!!! you are in big trouble. My heart goes out to you.

March 25, 2011 at 5:57 am
(165) Austin Cline says:

At the end of my life, if I’m wrong, as a christian, I have lost nothing, but if you are wrong, and there is a God, as I believe there is, then boy!!! you are in big trouble. My heart goes out to you.

Pascal’s Wager – just about the worst apologetics argument in existence. It’s not only ridiculous from the perspective of atheists, but it actually undermines Christianity itself. It’s especially absurd when presented in such a superficial, fallacy-filled form as this and is thus a sure sign that the person hasn’t given much though to what they are talking about.

April 16, 2011 at 1:31 pm
(166) Ananymous says:

I stumbled upon this post. It was very unfortunate and disappointing listening to the arguments of both the Christian and atheist. I am an Engineer and a Christian. I must tell you that I do not find true science in conflict with God only some theories put forward by some scientists. Remember as well that right now the only perfect science is Mathematics all other science is subject to change and upgrade because we do not have perfect information! Only God has perfect information, this is why the facts can differ from the truth. This is why a skilled lawyer can make a criminal into a saint.
The facts are what everybody (or the majority accept as true). The truth is simply what God says. Yes he exist and if you want to find the evidence he tells you to examine the things that are made. THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM FROM THE CREATION ARE CLEARLY SEEN BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE (Read Romans 1). Also the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth his handywork (Psalm 19:1).

April 16, 2011 at 1:33 pm
(167) Ananymous says:

Let me also explain to you why God is using Faith to deal with everyone. God uses faith as a basis for salvation because it is the only thing common to everyone. If he was to use riches to get you saved: the poor would die. If he was to use sight, the blind wouldn’t have a chance. If he was to use intellect the persons who are not academically bright would suffer… If he uses faith then everyone either believes or disbelieves his word. He can use this basis to get people saved. Beliefs can change with evidence and the evidence exist out there in Science itself (not just theories).
Unfortunately though, you shouldn’t have to search so hard to find it, or rely on science at all. The church should be showing the cripple walking, the deaf hearing, the blind seeing, cancer drying up and yes, even the dead walking but the church seems to have lost its former glory which is more of an internal problem. Remember it was these signs and wonders that started the church in the first place!

However, if God was to explain everything to us we would get old and die before we get it. I have tried to explain some engineering principles to some people and it only worked for those who were engineers. The others I would have to bring through 4 yrs of college for them to understand thermodynamics, statics and dynamics and so on for them to understand. So can you imagine God trying to explain the universe to you. Trust me we don’t have the time either we believe him or we don’t

July 8, 2011 at 9:23 am
(168) AMUNET THE KEMITE says:

That is a very clear and valid point Mr. Cline. And lets also consider the point that the only record of so-called jews or hebrews being enslaved in Kemet [Egypt] is the Bible. There has never been an enslavement of jews in kemet. However, there are RECORDS of the Hyksos coming into Egypt in the 15th dynasty and being driven out in the 18th dynasty by Ahmose [where they get "Moses" from] Which is where the so-called 400 year enslavement that the Holy By Bill is talking about came from. lol! I do think, Mr. Cline, you could have provided a lil more evidence for the blinded religious people on this page. I am not religious or atheist, I just stand for truth.

I noticed no one is addressing the original situation. Everyone has gotten off point trying to prove there is a god, because deep inside they have doubted it theirselves. Because they only stand on belief [ignorance] and not knowledge [knowing]. Or they don’t stand on the science of creation and how there is more than one creation of man and how there are many gods and there is no one god that is meant for everyone. [And what i am speaking is even in their Bibles...but they don't even know their own Bible.] For instance the Christian god is the same god that enslaves black people, or the same god of the KKK. But the god of the original man is traced back the the original land. lol No one can prove their “God”[german/dutch title] exists except through faith because they do just that, Believe and not Know. So everyone is entitled to their opinion….right?

January 4, 2012 at 12:12 pm
(169) htp says:

Atheist; One who claims to have complete and perfect knowledge of the entire universe. They know what is under every rock, on every planet, in every dimension and have complete understanding of the beginning of life, creation and can say for certain there is no God. They have infinite knowledge and therefore are god themselves, which of course defeats their own argument.

Agnostic; One who is humble enough to admit a lack of complete knowledge, but not energetic enough to find the truth.

Believer; One who has faith and/or, one who searches for truth and has found the overwhelming amount of evidence confirming the historic biblical truths. Chariot wheels in the Red Sea may or may not be included in these truths.

The real issue is why we are not allowed to go back with the equipment needed to end this discussion. Why are we being prevented from bringing up the empirical evidence that would confirm the truth? Or confirm the claims are bogus. Could it be Muslim influence in Egypt?

January 4, 2012 at 6:09 pm
(170) Austin Cline says:

Atheist; One who claims to have complete and perfect knowledge of the entire universe.

That’s not even remotely close to being the truth. Why do you imagine that you can get away with lying about atheism on an atheism site?

Agnostic; One who is humble enough to admit a lack of complete knowledge, but not energetic enough to find the truth.

That’s a lie too.

Believer; One who has faith and/or, one who searches for truth and has found the overwhelming amount of evidence confirming the historic biblical truths.

Well, why not provide some of that evidence, then?

January 13, 2012 at 3:52 pm
(171) Katvilani says:

theist; One who claims to have complete and perfect knowledge of the entire universe. They know what is under every rock, on every planet, in every dimension and have complete understanding of the beginning of life, creation and can say for certain there is a God. They have infinite knowledge and therefore are like god themselves, which of course makes their judgement on all matters social and politcial righteous and just.

I was wondering for a while where theists got the idea that they know what’s good for everyone and what should be forbidden, well i found my answer when i changed the definition of atheist posted by htp.

January 13, 2012 at 4:35 pm
(172) Dave Y. says:

@ HTP,

Atheist, one that hs no belief in fairy tale Gods and demons, and sees those that CLING to such delusions as delusional.

Agnostic, one that doesn’t believe in written stories of “GOD”, but can’t come to grips with Grandma being completely wrong, so they hold onto the notion of a Creator

Believer, one that believes in what is written, what they are told as they have no interest of questioning anything or desire to think for themselves because that would entail actually making a decision for oneself, which would mean they actually had a thought they WOULD have to be responsable for.

The idea that Fairy tales could possibly be real is the reason church still exists, and this is because there are many that can’t face the reality that their ancestors were complete MORONS, they can’t accept the fact that THEY WERE slaves of the Romans and he penalty for not believing was death.

Just ask any CHRISTIAN how many people were actually drawn to the church to join and how many were FORCED into the belief, they will tell you NO ONE was forced, and that has zero reality behind it!

January 13, 2012 at 5:12 pm
(173) OZAtheist says:

htp – Hmm an acronym perhaps?

“Holy Trite Phony” maybe. Would anyone else like to have a go?

The sort of drivel he has produced here does not deserve a serious attempt at rebuttal.

January 13, 2012 at 6:17 pm
(174) Thomas Daughting says:

Hmmm, I see. Because an Egyptian chariot wheel was found in an area that Egyptian chariots were used for centuries, and doubtlessly were transported by ship sometimes, and, of course, ships just never sank back in those days, that this if proof positive that all the wildly contradicting fantastic tales in the bible must therefore be true. Uh Huh. Yeah. I see. Hmmm. My only question is, are you already on medication for your condition, or SHOULD you be on medication ?

January 14, 2012 at 6:39 am
(175) OZAtheist says:

@(155) AtheistGeophsicistBob

A slight error in your calculations I think. The chances of all the 40 coins being either heads or tails is 262,143 : 1 according to my calculations.

Mind you I am having difficulty with “mobathome’s” figures also.

January 16, 2012 at 9:02 am
(176) Grandpa_In_The_East says:

Question for htp:

Your definition of atheist amazes me. Where did you get such an idea : “One who claims to have complete and perfect knowledge of the entire universe?” You probably heard it from the pulpit of the Church of the Holy Idiots.” If there isn’t such a church, there should be.

It is just such churches that teach young people that there are no atheists in foxholes. Of course people who repeat such stuff, must acquire complete knowledge of exactly how many fox holes there are at any and all times, and exactly who are or were in them and what their various religions are/were! In other words such theists would have to be the God he/she worships, which is of course one’s Self.

That is why no theist ever invents a god morally superior to himself. I forgot who wrote that but you can find it under “Famous Quotes” on the positiveatheism.org Website.

Grandpa

January 19, 2012 at 6:52 am
(177) Anon says:

Everyone is going to believe what they want to believe. The Christians throughout this have been so busy trying to prove Gods existence, they appear to have forgotten what they were called to do; to share of Gods Capital LOVE. So I am sorry they have stood here in arrogance trying to prove Gods existence that they may not be called crazy, deluded or told they belong in a special place for people with problems, because in itself it is a stance of pride which if they truly know God know that the devil himself was sent to hell for that. Rather you knew this was coming. You will always have to stand for what you believe in, but condemning people as some have done is not right. At one warrior for god, thats Gods job, not yours. But back on track to this wheel thing, everyone is entitled to believe what they wish about it. We are never going to know if it was the biblical site of the parting of the red sea or not. So there is no point creating an I’m right your wrong conversation. Scientists are going to argue its not, Christians and Jews and whoever will argue it is. One day I guess we will know for sure, but My real point and driving punch here is, atheists agnostics whatever, you are LOVED, and you have no clue what you are missing out on. Sorry people have been so dull to have forgotten to mention the most important part of their faith.

February 6, 2012 at 1:07 am
(178) Oktavius Frick says:

…well, well. I’m once again disappointed. So many arguements like this all over the internets, and they never change.
Now, first off, I’m a Christian, and I am a relatively strong believer, I think. However, let’s be honest here. Just about every Christian here is being highly illogical and moronic. And quite frankly, I am having a bit more respect for a lot of the atheists in this arguement. It is obvious that there is no proof of God existing or not existing. Personally, I believe that God created the Universe in such a way that, even though there is evidence of Him, that there is also no proof. It is a Universe that can be explained with a God, but also one that does not need the concept of God to be explained fully. All that either side can do is either make premature claims, or logically argue against said claims. We’re getting peeved at the Atheists mostly because we started an arguement, and they’re giving a generally logical counterarguement. Everyone is entitled to their own observations and opinions, and therefore it is wrong for either side to lash out, trying to force beliefs or counterbeliefs. And to use Hell as a threat is simply deplorable. Even if Hell is eternal suffering, can one really say that our short time on Earth is a waste because of that? As we are physical humans of a physical existance, nonbelievers can do “good” just as well as anyone, as far as that existence goes. I believe in God strongly, and it is because of that that I question my beliefs as well. I don’t want to force myself onto a narrow-minded path. I don’t necessarily doubt God, but I look for explanation as well, which I can find in this Universe that He has made as much as I could find it in a book about it. In this way, I am happily open to science, and I can speak with my God with little blindness to either… Ah, I need 2 posts to say this all, sorry. 

February 6, 2012 at 1:10 am
(179) Oktavius Frick says:

Odd, I wonder why my name didn’t show… Anywho, continuing from my last post:

Believers, we can’t just force our opinions on others as we’ve been doing in this whole arguement so far. No matter what we believe, no matter how sure we are that we know the truth, it is all irrelevant to those who chose not to believe it. God didn’t make us as slaves to His ways, but he gave us the opportunity to go in any direction possible. If we’re going to spread our beliefs, let’s not make overhyped claims or make horrid threats. Don’t spread it only through what we see, but through what others see as well. If we don’t use logic, you can’t blame anyone for arguing against our own uneducated guesses and blind statements. However, I also cannot help but state that there are some uneducated claims against Christianity as well, many of which block out Christian beliefs in the same way Christians block out theirs, and often forget about certain concepts as well.
We’re all enemies here, it seems, and it looks like the Christians here are failing to turn a single cheek, and instead responding to a slap with a roundhouse kick. We’re not supposed to be foes, but we’re not supposed to just leave everyone be as well, since we both care somewhat about each others’ well-being. Let’s just not be so hostile. If you want to say something, say it for the sake of your beliefs and for the sake of your audience, not for the sake of winning a stupid, unwinnable arguement. Athiests, I realize you have little to apologize for, so I’m sorry if I made your side look like the bad guys or anything. And Christians who were only being honest and meaning well, I’m sorry if I overgeneralized our side as a bunch of idiots too much.

I conclude with a quote:
“I disapprove what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” -Voltaire

February 19, 2012 at 3:03 pm
(180) john says:

why are you so scared of accepting we are not a freek acident. God is alive and well world, wake up and stop trying to disprove the god who loves you and wants to be part of your lives.

April 7, 2012 at 4:54 am
(181) Yep says:

@ Austin… You Prove It!

April 7, 2012 at 2:00 pm
(182) Austin Cline says:

You Prove It!

OK

Prove what, exactly?

June 8, 2012 at 2:30 pm
(183) Lupa says:

It is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God. Even the supernatural evidence contained throughout the Bible does not prove His being. Similarly, it is impossible to disprove the existence of God.

Belief or disbelief of a God is a matter of faith. It must be, as Creator of all things must be above all, infinite, and therefore immeasurable by anything in the realm He created. Thus, any evidential proof of God is not.

Having stated this, consider the 400 or so proteins necessary for a single cell. Consider that each of these must exist at the same time, in the same place, in environmental conditions that are mutually exclusive between many of thos proteins. If this impossible situation occurs, an unknown catalyst has to occur that causes these proteins to combine in the precisely correct way to create the various interdependent systems within a single cell.

The probability of the proteins simply “lining up” in the proper order is 400!/1, or (6.4 x10^868) to 1. Keep in mind that 1 Billion is (1.0 x 10^7). And that’s just the probability for 400 proteins to line up correctly.

Imagine how great the probability is for mutually exclusive environmental conditions to exist to support the existence of these proteins. Or, the unknown catalyst to act on these proteins to magically cause them to develop into a living, single-cell organism.

Now consider the existence of self sufficient, single-cell organisms. They have no awareness, yet the must have “agreed” to work together in highly specialized roles, change their internal workings and capabilities, and assembled themselves in higher level, sentient beings.

This all had to happen within the alleged 4 Billion year span of the earth’s existence, or at least in the alleged 16 Billion year span of the universe’s existence.

I ask you, who has more faith? Me, the believer in God? Or you, the believer in impossible chance?

June 8, 2012 at 3:12 pm
(184) Austin Cline says:

It is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God.

Depends on how “god” is defined.

Belief or disbelief of a God is a matter of faith.

Speak for yourself. The lack of credible reasons to bother believing is sufficient for us and it’s nowhere near “faith”.

Having stated this

So you go from asserting, without evidence, the proof is impossible and then proceed to try to offer proof.

Does the contradiction inherent in this simply not make any impact on you?

The probability of the proteins simply “lining up” in the proper order is 400!/1, or (6.4 x10^868) to 1.

Cite your work, please.

I ask you, who has more faith? Me, the believer in God? Or you, the believer in impossible chance?

Impossible? Cite your work to prove that it’s impossible. If you can, you’ll have proven that your god exists – and thus contradicted yourself. If you can’t, you’ll have to admit that you were wrong in asserting that the odds were “impossible.”

Either way, you’ll have to admit to error and I’ll bet that that’s something you’re not willing to do.

June 11, 2012 at 2:29 pm
(185) NJ says:

As Christians we are not required to force anyone to believe in God, only to live as Jesus would live thereby living an example so that others might follow suit. If Austin chooses to ignore or denounce the evidence, that is his choice. Just because he says it isn’t so doesn’t mean that Christians should question their faith. After all that is what faith is all about. Have faith in the unseen and the unproven and enjoy a blessed existence.

I agree Lori except true faith is supported by evidence…though God is physically unseen by our natural vision, the evidence for His existance is all around us everywhere and thus can be seen by those whose spiritual vision has been restored to them through their faith in God. Those who do not believe God do not believe the evidence…they will always find another explanation more suitable to their denial of God’s existance.

June 13, 2012 at 9:29 am
(186) Austin Cline says:

I agree Lori except true faith is supported by evidence…though God is physically unseen by our natural vision, the evidence for His existance is all around us everywhere and thus can be seen by those whose spiritual vision has been restored to them through their faith in God. Those who do not believe God do not believe the evidence…they will always find another explanation more suitable to their denial of God’s existance.

If you only see the evidence after you have faith, then faith is prior to having evidence and, therefore, faith is not actually supported by evidence.

So you’re contradicting yourself – faith for you is not “supported by” evidence, it is prior to and completely independent of evidence. This also means that your faith will persists even if there is evidence contradicting it.

A belief that held regardless of and even in spite of evidence is an irrational belief – and it indicates that a person doesn’t care about truth or reality.

June 13, 2012 at 4:43 pm
(187) Mitch says:

Austin, I’m glad you are very civil in your discussions here, as that at least makes things more enjoyable. Constant rude remarks and poor grammar ruin one’s time reading.

In my opinion, it really is a matter of how open-minded one is to evidence. Certainly biases are always present, but I think there are two ways to see any “evidence” and unless you are willing to see things in a different way, you will never be convinced of theism.

I am referring to things like the fossil record, irreducible complexity arguments, the Big Bang, etc. For example, the macroevolutionist’s stance will always be that the fossil record is strong enough to show the progression to humans no matter how large the gaps, while the creationist’s stance will be the opposite, namely that there are never enough links. In my opinion, the human body is too complex to have become this way through evolution. In my opinion, the Big Bang strengthens the theist’s argument by showing that there was some sort of absolute beginning, which aligns with the idea of a God. These ideas, however, are subject to interpretation, rendering argument meaningless.

Faith is something both sides have. Just as I have faith in a God that I have never seen, you have faith that science has all the answers. I disagree with the assertion that the burden lies with the theist to prove a God exists. Athiests have the similar burden of proving there is no God. Pretending that one position is the default position is wrong. The fair course of action is to start at a position of uncertainty and to agree with the side with the strongest arguments, since neither side has proof. If there was proof either way, we would have nothing to discuss. While there has been negativity on both sides (my personal favorite being the term “moronic godbots”), I hope this is taken as a civil post about why I don’t think arguments like this will go anywhere unless open-mindedness is truly achieved.

June 13, 2012 at 5:18 pm
(188) Austin Cline says:

I am referring to things like the fossil record, irreducible complexity arguments, the Big Bang, etc.

Curious that you would equate the debate about whether any gods exist or not with evolution. In my experience, that only comes from theists who are ignorant of basic science and biology. Everyone else recognizes that they are logically and empirically distinct issues.

In my opinion, the human body is too complex to have become this way through evolution.

So, it’s just an opinion? Nothing that can be supported with evidence?

In my opinion, the Big Bang strengthens the theist’s argument by showing that there was some sort of absolute beginning, which aligns with the idea of a God.

Except that it doesn’t require a cause, which doesn’t align with any gods.

you have faith that science has all the answers.

No. You talk about being “civil,” but it’s not at all civil to attribute to people things they have never said.

I disagree with the assertion that the burden lies with the theist to prove a God exists.

The initial burden always lies with whomever is making a claim.

Athiests have the similar burden of proving there is no God.

No, because atheists aren’t making any initial claims. Atheists are simply those who don’t happen to believe in any gods.

Pretending that one position is the default position is wrong.

Everyone is born lacking beliefs in gods; that automatically makes it the default.

The fair course of action is to start at a position of uncertainty

No, the only fair course is to start out not accepting some claim or proposition is true and then only adopting it once a sufficient case is made on its behalf. That’s how both science and the law work, and for good reason.

If there was proof either way, we would have nothing to discuss.

You’re assuming that no one would ever be in denial of proof.

I don’t think arguments like this will go anywhere unless open-mindedness is truly achieved.

If you care about being open-minded, you won’t attribute to people things they haven’t said.

June 13, 2012 at 6:01 pm
(189) Mitch says:

I don’t see how the Big Bang doesn’t require a cause. Unless the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time, it has to have a beginning. Therefore, whatever caused it must not be subject to the same limitations, which would apply to a God, aligning with what I believe.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth and not being civil. If you don’t believe in a God, I am left to assume that you believe science has an explanation for everything that’s been discussed, whether or not the answers have been discovered or proven yet. Could you clarify for me, then, what you think has the answers, if not science?

I am using the definition of an athiest as “one who believes that there is no deity”. A baby isn’t any more athiest than thiest since a baby doesn’t even know what a God is. Babies are born agnostic, “a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic”. Agnosticism is neither athiesm nor theism, so both positions have the burden of proof if they are to be accepted as correct. One could also say babies are born as implicit athiests, compared to explicit athiests who consciously disbelieve in a God, but the semantics don’t accomplish anything here. The conscious disbelief of a God is not the default position.

June 13, 2012 at 8:15 pm
(190) Austin Cline says:

I don’t see how the Big Bang doesn’t require a cause.

Causation requires a context of time and space – especially time, in order for there to be a “time before.” No universe, no time. No time, no “time before.” No “time before,” no causation.

If you don’t believe in a God

Who said I didn’t?

Could you clarify for me, then, what you think has the answers, if not science?

Who said I think anything currently has all the answers?

It’s a conceit of certain forms of theism that unless some ideology immediately provides all the answers, then it’s deficient.

I am using the definition of an athiest as “one who believes that there is no deity”.

And that’s not the correct definition.

A baby isn’t any more athiest than thiest since a baby doesn’t even know what a God is.

Doesn’t matter. Atheism is the absence of belief in gods.

Babies are born agnostic

That too. Agnosticism and atheism aren’t mutually exclusive.

“a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic”.

That’s not the correct definition of agnosticism. (at least, not in this context – you’re referring to a metaphorical definition which gets used outside the context of gods, like “platform agnostic”).

Agnosticism is neither athiesm nor theism, so both positions have the burden of proof if they are to be accepted as correct.

You’re operating from incorrect definitions all around.

The conscious disbelief of a God is not the default position.

I didn’t say it was. I said atheism is the default position. A-theism – the absence of theism.

June 15, 2012 at 7:54 pm
(191) OZAtheist says:

Mitch,

Please read over what you have written again :

“If you don’t believe in a God, I am left to assume that you believe science has an explanation for everything that’s been discussed, whether or not the answers have been discovered or proven yet. Could you clarify for me, then, what you think has the answers, if not science?”

Does this really make sense to you? You state that you assume Austin believes that science has the answer to everything, and then ask him to give an alternative source of information as if he had said the opposite!

Back on the general topic, believers in a deity that created everything, think that atheists are obliged to give some alternative, proven explanation, for the existence of everything. They cannot seem to grasp the concept, that atheists can be comfortable acknowledging that they do not have that knowledge.

June 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm
(192) OZAtheist says:

I do believe I wrote something here, in response to the meanderings of Mitch, but it appears to have been lost.

June 20, 2012 at 3:26 pm
(193) Mitch says:

OZAthiest,

I never said athiests need some proven explanation for the existence of everything. Theists don’t have any “proof” either, since there is just evidence on both sides. However, I have a tough time understanding what your (or Austin’s or other atheists’) position is. Doesn’t everything have an explanation? I’m not trying to force you into providing one, since there is obviously still much we don’t understand. However, in some way mustn’t everything have a natural (what I mean when I refer to science) or supernatural cause? (Whether or not it’s been discovered/explained yet)

I understand that some atheists are comfortable acknowledging that they don’t have the knowledge, which is why I focus on talking to people who are willing to take a position if they encounter evidence strong enough in favor of one side. It’s easy to say “I don’t know” and not take a side, whereas it’s harder to look at the evidence and form an opinion, since doing so means you’re taking a stand, willing to accept criticism about your beliefs, etc.

My main confusion stemmed from my previous (albeit incorrect) assumption that atheists are ones who consciously disbelieve in a God and that those simply “lacking belief” are agnostic, but since the term atheist refers to both strong and weak atheists there is no point of contention to actually discuss. It’s impossible to know how much (or what sort of) evidence would be required to convince those “without belief in a God” that there is a God, so I am not trying to do so.

June 21, 2012 at 5:15 am
(194) Austin Cline says:

However, I have a tough time understanding what your (or Austin’s or other atheists’) position is.

You could ask.

Doesn’t everything have an explanation?

Not at the moment, no.

However, in some way mustn’t everything have a natural (what I mean when I refer to science) or supernatural cause? (Whether or not it’s been discovered/explained yet)

No, why?

It’s impossible to know how much (or what sort of) evidence would be required to convince those “without belief in a God” that there is a God, so I am not trying to do so.

No, it’s not impossible. You just have to ask. You also have to be prepared to define what, exactly, you mean by “god”.

June 22, 2012 at 1:46 pm
(195) Mitch says:

I suppose to help my understanding, I will go ahead and ask: what is your position? And what sort of evidence would be required to convince you that there is a God (assuming you don’t believe in any)?

And by God I mean “the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”.

June 23, 2012 at 8:49 am
(196) Austin Cline says:

I suppose to help my understanding, I will go ahead and ask: what is your position?

About what, exactly? You need to be more specific.

And what sort of evidence would be required to convince you that there is a God (assuming you don’t believe in any)?

Depends on how you define “God,” doesn’t it?

And by God I mean “the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”.

That’s not much of a definition. An appropriate definition either offers something to test for or allows for a test to be developed. What’s necessary is some possible set of circumstances which would be incompatible with the existence of this “God.”

If you cannot provide a definition which allows for your god to be tested for, then for all intents and purposes it has no impact on the universe – and that’s effectively the same as not existing.

If you cannot provide a definition which allows for some set of circumstances which would be incompatible with its existence, then it’s a meaningless definition.

June 22, 2012 at 8:56 pm
(197) OZAtheist says:

Mitch,

Thank you for your response. It’s nice to get a thoughtful, measured, input from a Christian, (I assume that is your faith), instead of capitalised shouting.

I must disagree with your idea that: “it is easier to say I don’t know and not take a side”. On the contrary I think the opposite is the case as is clearly illustrated by the numbers, or lack of them, of agnostics/atheists in religious communities.

I also disagree with your statement in an earlier post: “Atheists have the similar burden of proving there is no God.” If that’s so which god shall we start with? Shall we start with Greek gods in alphabetical order? Perhaps you can help me here because I assume you don’t believe in the existence of these gods either, and as you believe it is incumbent on the disbeliever to prove the non existence of the gods he does not believe in, you must have collected all this evidence already.

Of course you know I am toying with you. You want me to tackle the Biblical god, arguably the same god worshipped by all three of the desert dogmas Judaism, Islam, and Christianity – well he was the same god back in the time of Abraham before he became identified as three separate entities in later times. Christianity made a complete dogs breakfast of their version with the three part concept inspired by Tertullian. (“Dogs breakfast” means “a mess” and may be an Australian expression.)

Curiously I feel no obligation to prove the non existence of the Biblical god or any other. I see nothing to revere in the god portrayed the Bible however, and if by some remote chance he was real I would feel revulsion if I met him.

June 23, 2012 at 7:18 am
(198) OZAtheist says:

Mitch,

Just to go of on a slight tangent, it seems to me that Christians are in a state of internal conflict, extolling the virtue of having faith without proof on the one hand, and yet trying to find proofs to support their beliefs.

The Bible gives mixed messages on this subject as it does with so many others. According to the gospel of John 20:29, Jesus was quite accepting of the skeptical doubting Thomas – who wanted proof – and at the same time praising those who would believe without this reinforcement.

Modern day Christians are hungry for miracles to prop up their faith. They find bleeding statues, buns that look like Mother Teresa, visions of the Virgin Mary by gazing at the Sun, the likeness of Jesus on a piece of toast, and a multitude of other supposedly miraculous phenomena. They hold all this baloney up as evidence of the existence of their god, and in the same breath extoll the virtue of believing on faith alone.

June 25, 2012 at 5:17 pm
(199) DF says:

So many different perspectives, can they all be right? I read through quite a bit of this forum/thread and found most of it to be unfruitful debating. As for the definition of “god” there are many. The dictionary gives one of them to be “the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”.
If that is “not much of a definition” then I am sorry, but that is generally
what people go by when they think of god – some sort of being who
created all things. As far as evidence goes, I still don”t know if the evidence I provide will be sufficient for you, because there is usually
a way around evidence no matter how concrete it is – and notice i say usually, not always.
But consider this, does the earth and the life in it have evidence of begin designed?
Take a look at part of the following article from Awake! January 22, 2000:

June 25, 2012 at 5:43 pm
(200) Austin Cline says:

So many different perspectives, can they all be right?

No.

If that is “not much of a definition” then I am sorry, but that is generally
what people go by when they think of god

People also arguably don’t have a very firm, clear idea of what they mean by the term. I explained why the definition isn’t ver good and I’ll note that you don’t even try to address that.

But consider this, does the earth and the life in it have evidence of begin designed?

Not that you are able to offer.

But a question still exists, does the fact that things are very complex in nature prove they were designed?

No.

The answer to that is up to what you want to believe.

No. If it did constitute proof, you would be able to demonstrate that “designed” is the only way such things could exist. You don’t even try.

But consider this too, when you look at a house. Do you question the fact that it was built by someone? Well no of course not because you know it to be a fact that someone built it

And I know this because I have experience of people building houses.

I have no such experience of such a process with the universe.

June 25, 2012 at 5:18 pm
(201) DF says:

“Composites are solid materials that result when two or more substances are combined to form a new substance containing properties that are superior to those of the original ingredients. This can be illustrated by the synthetic composite fiberglass, which is commonly used in boat hulls, fishing rods, bows, arrows, and other sporting goods. Fiberglass is made by setting fine fibers of glass in a liquid or jellylike matrix of plastic (called a polymer). When the polymer hardens, or sets, the end result is a composite that is lightweight, strong, and flexible. If the kinds of fibers and the matrix are varied, an enormously broad range of products can be made. Of course, man-made composites are still crude compared with those found naturally in humans, animals, and plants.
In humans and animals, instead of fibers of glass or carbon, a fibrous protein called collagen forms the basis of the composites that give strength to skin, intestines, cartilage, tendons, bones, and teeth (except for the enamel). One reference work describes collagen-based composites as being “among the most advanced structural composite materials known.”
For example, consider tendons, which tie muscle to bone. Tendons are remarkable, not just because of the toughness of their collagen-based fibers but also because of the brilliant way these fibers are woven together. In her book Biomimicry, Janine Benyus writes that the unraveled tendon “is almost unbelievable in its multileveled precision. The tendon in your forearm is a twisted bundle of cables, like the cables used in a suspension bridge. Each individual cable is itself a twisted bundle of thinner cables. Each of these thinner cables is itself a twisted bundle of molecules, which are, of course, twisted, helical bundles of atoms. Again and again a mathematical beauty unfolds.” It is, she says, “engineering brilliance.” Is it any surprise that scientists speak of being inspired by nature’s designs?”

June 25, 2012 at 5:19 pm
(202) DF says:

I could quote countless articles examining the cellular structure of humans, aminals, and plants describing how intricate and precise
everything has to be in order for life to exist. But a question still exists,
does the fact that things are very complex in nature prove they were designed? The answer to that is up to what you want to believe. But consider this too, when you look at a house. Do you question the fact
that it was built by someone? Well no of course not because you know it to be a fact that someone built it, but there still exists the possiblity that the house was created by chance. As i’m sure you know, many scientists are saying that things are no longer impossible but are more improbable. The more intricate the house the lower the probablity of it being created by chance. I could assert that the house was created by chance, because of the small odds that exist that it could be. In reality a lot of the things we have come to know as fact are just “high probability” of happening.

June 26, 2012 at 1:37 am
(203) Michael Rudas says:

The argument from design is a big fail. Two simple examples show why.

I recently saw a creationist site argue that the similarity between an octopus eye and a human eye showed that both were designed by the same designer. What the author neglected to mention is that the octopus eye is superior to the human eye in at least one respect: it has no blind spot, since the optic nerve bundle comes off the side of the retina instead of the middle, as in the human eye.

Another example is the need for Vitamin C in the human diet. Except for the higher primates (and the guinea pig), all mammals produce their own vitamin C. Not only does this show the relationship between us and the other primates, but it is a clear “design” flaw.

June 29, 2012 at 7:59 pm
(204) OZAtheist says:

I could not find: “What Evidence Would Convince You That There Is A God?”, among the above comments but it is a good question. We atheists are good at pointing out evidence that strongly suggests there is no god but suggesting what would be required to encourage belief is a challenge.

It would be impressive if our bodies were put together in a way that was totally different to the animals that surround us. Having bodies that are almost identical in structure and having DNA that differs slightly from that of primates is not impressive. Having body parts that suggest evolvement from other species does little to convince us that we were created in the image of a god also.

It would be impessive if we humans had physical abilities that were above those of animals and defied the laws of physics that restrain lower lifeforms. Being able to take a stroll across the water and making mountains move by thought alone would be neat. Finding out that other animals have some abilities that exceed ours is not so impressive.

It would be impressive if we had a daily, weekly, monthly, or even yearly heavenly broadcast from God giving a “State of the Universe” address and re-affirming his love for us, (his special creation), as well as dispensing justice to wayward villians. Sending cyclones and earthquakes as retribution for the sexual misconduct of a few gays, and fornicators, just doesn’t really make a strong case to re-enforce belief in a god.

June 30, 2012 at 11:14 am
(205) JTL says:

@Warrior For Christ and all other believers:

Since you brought up the tern “hate”, I’d like to expound upon it a little.
Christianity, especially today’s American version of it is a hate group, pure and simple.
You “Christians” are the haters.
As far as atheists such as myself hating you and your kind, it’s getting to the point where I don’t want to be around you and I don’t want to hear anything you have to say.
I do not respect your Iron Age belief system and your fairy tale book.
I think you and your kind purposely hide your heads in the sand and refuse to see reason. Come to think of it, I do hate you.

July 1, 2012 at 6:41 am
(206) Grandpa_In_The_East says:

If DF’s argument is that “chance” stands as the alternative to “intelligent design” then it falls that all houses were built by chance, as well as was all the documents that went along with them.

Else, the “intelligent designer” was designed by a less than intelligent designer, if we are to take the Holy Bible seriously.

Which we shouldn’t do, of course.

Grandpa

July 24, 2012 at 8:54 am
(207) Diesel says:

Here are the facts as they stand today.

1 there is no trace of a huge amount of Jews wandering the desert not one artifact and we know we’re they we’re,
2. Like all sciences they go by peer review process this supposed relic has not gone through theses test. It never matters what one scientist says about a particular part of science it is the consensus that counts.
3. So what is the achological consensus? The consensus s there was no exodus of a large amount of Jews from Egypt. That the Jews were never enslaved in Egypt in any large number. That the Egyptian have records stating that actual Egyptian built theses temples.

Here is an intros sting fact the bible puts the number of Jews at about1.2 million and about 2.5 million in non Jews. This is about 3.7 million people except there were no more then 3 million Egyptians in Egypt.

Here is another usefully fact standing ten breast by breast would cause the line of people to by 150 miles long and they would some 300 tons of food per day and this is if they only etahalf the amount a normal person consumes. This number doesnt included the animals that would need food and water. This is just ridicules to think that we would not find any Jewish artifacts nor would there be any writings from Egyptian outpost that were in the areas theses Jews walked past.

July 24, 2012 at 9:05 am
(208) Diesel says:

As for faith the definition of faith is the belief in a thing with any evidence. This idea faith is a good thing to have is wrong. No we’re in your life other than in your religion do you do no research into its factual historical claims. In life every decision. You make is based on logic and reason. We don’t walk on red because ar brain goes through a check list, is the red light working if not then we don’t just cross we look both ways. All these things are based of what information you have about cars busy streets and red lights. Even on green you will look and check if it’s safe why because the information of people running lights is in your brain. We make every decision based on what we know to be true from the evidence we have. Never in the day do you of the evidence you don’t have. So why do it for any holy book?

Sad to say I was a fundy who grew up in the church and only after questioning things a lot of reading about actual history I found that almost none of the stuff we were taught as fact was based in reality others then place and the occasional leaders were the stories were based(and they get some of the times wrong as well). The bible can only prove its self with its self as there are no outside verification. This is circular the bible says its true so it’s true. why is the bible true? Because god wrote the bible. How do you know this? Because the bible says so…. Se the issue.

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