God as Explanation for Order: What Explains God's Orderly Mind? (Book Notes: The Atheists Debater's Handbook)
In The Atheists Debater's Handbook, B.C. Johnson writes:
There are only three possible explanations for the orderliness of God’s mind.
It could be just an unexplained brute fact. If so, we have merely substituted one brute fact for another, and have come no closer to the ultimate explanation of order. We must explain this new brute fact for the same reason that we had to explain the old brute fact. Moreover, it will not do to claim that mental orderliness is an ultimate fact. For we can make the same claim for material orderliness.
Another possibility is that the order of God’s mind has been created by an even greater God. But then the greater God’s mind would require an explanation in terms of a yet greater God... and so on endlessly.
[T]he theist could say that God’s mind is self-explanatory, necessarily existing, or uncaused. But the problem with this response has already been brought out. We know of no such things as self-explanatory or necessarily-existing minds. The theist claims that mind should be the explanation of order because we know of minds which produce it. But we de not know of self-explanatory, necessarily-existing minds which produce it. Therefore there is no justification for including them in the discussion.
Christians who want to argue that their god must exist because it’s needed to explain something — whether it’s order in the universe, the universe itself, or something else — are inevitably caught in a bind like this. Whatever they are using their god to explain is likely true about their god as well, so what explains that aspect of their god? Insisting that it’s simply a brute fact which doesn’t need explanation won’t work because there’s no basis for not saying the same about the universe.
Christian arguments for the existence of their god are failures, both logically and empirically. Christians would realize this if they applied their standards and principles consistently across the board, but they don’t. Why? Because an impartial investigation of the matter isn’t the point; they are offering these arguments in order to defend a claim which isn’t self-evidently true and about which there are serious doubts. So long as they refuse to acknowledge any of this, their arguments will continue to be poorly reasoned.
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Comments
Since the beginning of recorded time, man has searched fro an explanation to many different things that occur. This is why myths are created. Please don’t misunderstand my statement. A myth is simply a story. Every culture has a different set of myths, all of which influence one another in some way. How else are humans to answer all of unknown questions? I believe that it all depends upon your faith. Once you have faith in it, then it all becomes true to you personally. According to my Christian faith, I am REQUIRED to love all of my fellow humans REGARDLESS of difference in opinion. This is the aspect of God, and Christianity that I am drawn to. There really is no absolute facts that prove that God is real. We all must have something to believe in to make it in this world, why not God?
Well, why not Hitler? Why not Zeus? If your “standard” is to have no standards whatsoever except for what makes you feel good, then you are deliberately abandoning any attempt to value truth or reality.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but if you announce yourself as someone who doesn’t care about what’s true or not, then I can’t trust you to ever tell me the truth. If you believe things based on what makes you feel good, then I have to assume that you’ll use the same standards whenever telling me something.
If, however, if you do value the truth then the question you ask above is sheer nonsense. People who value truth will believe that for which there is sufficient evidence to warrant believe. People who value truth will not ask “why not X,” but “why X” — why believe the truth of any proposition X? If there is sufficient evidence and reason, then the answer is self-evident. If there is not, then the question never should have been asked.
Mythology was required when human imagination exceeded human knowledge.
Mythology today only continues in geographical locations, individuals, or areas of enquiry where that remains the case today. With scientific method, and the power of microscopes and telescopes, the need for gods ended, because now, in many areas, our knowledge matches or exceeds our imagination.
I’d rather believe in things that have evidence, than things that do not.
Why a God? Wouldn’t it make more sense to ask How a God? There are so many and most of them are long forgotten and dead.
Hi Austin
If there is nothing divine or if we arent clones from some other Alien species why is it that humans seem to be the only animals out of tune with nature. Why cant a human baby survive on his own,unlike babies of other species?
It seeems nature doesnt give a ***** about us
thanks
paulo
Why cant a human baby survive on his own,unlike babies of other species? — Comment by paulo — March 15, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
Some animals can survive on their own soon after they’re born, some cannot.
You’re right, though, that nature generally doesn’t care about us. Which is an excellent reason that we should care for one another.
Paulo,
you seem to believe the exact opposite of what is evidently true. The information you cited is rather insignificant in its overspecified nature and as Zack said many animals, in fact mammals in general cannot survive on their own as young. You seem to be ignoring all the ridiculous number of similarities between ourselves and all other life on Earth.
Like animals are bodies are made of exactly the same components and function in the same way, the odds of there being alien life that similar in structure to life on this planet seems low.
Also, nature only shows the same lack of care for us as it does for all other life on this planet, seeing as nature, despite what you seem to think, is not a sentient entity. It doesn’t reject us as ‘aliens’ to this planet, becuase it doesn’t reject anything. Nature isn’t corporial or conscious, by its very definition.
Finally, even if humanity did in some way seem out of tune with the rest of this world, that doesn’t suggest a god created us or we were left here as clones, as the evidence that we are native to this planet, and indeed evolved from simpler creatures (as is all life on this planet) is indisputable.
i pray for non-believers of God everyday.
a couple of things:
1] even if you do not believe in God but live a life of faith in Him and there is no God what have you lost?
if you live a life of faith in God and there is a God you will be richly rewarded.
it says throughout the bible that you are saved by faith.
2] you say an ‘impartial’ view of the ‘facts’ shows that there is no reason to believe that there is God.
pardon me,but during this extensive investigation did you interview God?
the BEST argument for the fact, yes fact, for Gods existence will come last.
3] the greatest mind of the 20th century, albert einstien, said that the more you know the more you MUST believe that yes GOD EXISTS !
4] you proclaim & espouse that we are the product of nature.
who made nature?
5] if God does not exist where do we come from?
clones?
who were they?
did you interview them?
6] if there is no God how are we here?
heres the BEST for elitist non-believers.
7] were there not God there would be absolute nothing……nothing at all…no energy in order to create the universe simply nothing…..NOTHING ! someone had to cut the light switch on!!! elsewise there would be an ABSOLUTE & TOTAL VOID !!!
can you disagree with this? if so you are simply a blesphemer…one whom i pray for everyday.
REPENT!!!!!!
Your time would be better spent thinking.
Pascal’s Wager. An exceptionally poor argument that has long since been refuted.
So? Why should I believe that?
Pardon me, but if there were any gods to interview, I would necessarily believe in their existence.
What comes last isn’t actually an argument, just a claim. Do you understand the difference?
Prove it. Quote him.
Why assume that it was “made” by anyone?
We’re born - it’s a completely natural process. No gods required.
That’s the same as the last question.
You have really low standards.
OK, prove it.
I see no reason to agree with it.
P.S.: darwin was a scotish Christian.
oh austin poor austin.
it is nearly impossible for people to concieve or comprehend infinity.
try and wrap your mind around it.
its hard.
we have watches calendars birthdates we live we die.
because of these things and others we can only understand the finite of time.
infinity….always has been always will be….that is God.
God is timeless
God is omnipotent
God has emotions….He did create us in His image….that includes emotions.
since you as 99.999/per cent of the world cannot grasp the concept of infinity then you cannot grasp that God turned on the light switch. after all if you cannot concieve or understand infinity how can you understand an absolute and total VOID?
you cannot conceive it can you?
that is infinity
that is an absolute and total void without Him.
come on austin ,
put on your great mental boxing gloves.
have i given that ‘great’ mind of yours too much to comprehend?
austin come on i am chating with you from my heart, my soul, my spirit.
you are arguing from that ‘great’ mind of yours.
after all in your ‘great’ mind i am nothing more than a brain dead believer in God.
put em on
lets take it outside
austin you great thinker you,
i’m waiting.
put those elitist mental logical boxing gloves of yours on!!!
this down to earth faithful believer in God is waiting.
is someone speaking from his heart from his soul too much for you?
stop talking your talk and start walking the walk
dear austin,
i hope that i have given you reason to believe in God.
i hope that you are searching your soul and not your mind.
austin i am not computer savvy and do not know if i will be able to get back here or not. i missed the on ramp to the information super highway.
as i place all non-believers in my prayers i have placed you specifically in my prayers.
one question i do have is how can pascals wager be refuted as say it has been?
best wishes and God bless you austin,
doug
No. You haven’t even written anything new. You haven’t offered any actual arguments and you have tried to support any of your claims.
Waiting for what? I’ve pointed out problems in what you’ve said and asked you to support your claims. You shouldn’t need more to get started making a case for your position.
If that’s so, then you need to learn more about reasoning or arguments.
It’s not too hard to follow the link I gave.
REPENT!!!
REPENT NOW!!!
just trying to get your attn. i e-d a friend calling him a drunken waste of flesh. i only capitalize to get emphasize a point and yes i do this with my family and friends.
i believe that you are closed minded because you will not open your mind, your soul, your heart that God exists.
are you out there austin…….put on those logical,scientific gloves on.
the semantics and dictionary dictionarys deinions you use
P.S.: i enjoyed our lively discussion the other night
i hope you will not kick me out simply because i have a different point of view.
i had no idea of how well respected you are in the atheist/agnostic community.
now that i do know i wish to discuss our difference of opinions even more!
i’ll try one of those FORUMS you sugested mon. nite. i looked at one and the woman was long winded. sorry i really don’t care for that, but i’ll try another.