From: "Roland"
Subject: Re: I disagree with you

The removal of prayer from public school is actually unconstitutional. If we state [in the Constitution] the government cannot dictate which religion should be practiced and that "We the people..." have a right to believe and worship a religion, anywhere in this country, without government restriction or intervention, then the restriction of children to practice their religion in school violates their rights.

Why is it that so many conservative, evangelical, and fundamentalist Christians say and believe that prayer has been “removed” from public schools and/or that children aren’t allowed to pray in public schools? It’s so absurd that it’s hard to believe that anyone could honestly believe it — they must be lying, right?

I honestly don’t know if people like Roland are lying or not. I would assume that at least some are, but I don’t know if that is true of a plurality or even a majority of them. Perhaps some sincerely believe that children are “restricted” from prayer in schools, but the minimum we have to conclude from this is that they haven’t done even a modicum of research on the subject.

If they did, they‘d find that children can prayer in public schools. Of course there are restrictions, but they aren’t restriction that any rational human being should object to. Children cannot, for example, stand up and start praying aloud during a test or while the teacher is lecturing. The restrictions on prayer in school are basically the same restrictions that exist for other forms of speech and they exist in order to ensure that order is kept and the mission of the school (education) can be achieved.

The government cannot force them to say the Lord's prayer, like I did in school and I'm fine with that. We were never forced to say it then either. However, we were never restricted from saying it or restricted from wearing symbols of our faith. We also never fought against each other because someone believed differently than we did. Children learn hatred from others.

It’s awfully nice to see the above admission from Roland. Typically when I find Christians complaining about the removal of government-written prayers from public schools, I don’t see any acknowledgment that what happened was precisely that: the removal of government written, government sponsored, and government endorsed prayers. Hardly anyone today would advocate such a thing today in those words, but that’s exactly what Christians advocate when they insist hat the removal of prayers from public schools was a bad thing.

Roland, however, is a step above the others by acknowledging that they were government-written prayers that were removed, that he had to sit through them, and that it’s was good for them to be taken out. Unfortunately he falls down again by inaccurately and unfairly describing the current situation as one where students are restricted from saying prayers and wearing symbols of faith.

As I noted above it is true that some restrictions exist, but those are general restrictions that exist across the board, no matter what sort of speech is at issue. There aren’t any special restrictions that exist just for religious speech like prayers. I find it difficult to believe that Roland hasn’t heard of, say, “Meet You At the Pole,” a yearly event where students meet at the school’s flagpole to pray.

The idea that students in schools never used to fight with those who believed differently is completely implausible. Those who are different have always suffered discrimination, prejudice, and persecution by the majority — and that’s especially true when it comes to religious differences.

Prayer not being in public school is due to the fact that atheists have an issue. It is unconstitutional. Courts have misinterpreted the Constitution but that is the risk we take in a free society. There will always be those that do not objectionably believe and only wish to further their self interests and beliefs on others.

Ah, but prayer does exist in public school. Students pray all the time — especially at test time. Moreover, the reason that government-written prayers were removed from schools isn’t “due to the fact that atheists have an issue.” In reality, cases like this are often brought by religious believers, including Christians, who object to the prayers of other religions and other denominations being promoted and endorsed by the government.

Jehovah’s Witnesses, for example, are often involved in lawsuits such as this. It is true that when people bring such lawsuits, they have their own interests in mind — and why shouldn’t they? Their religious freedoms are being infringed upon when the government pushes another set of religious beliefs on them. At the same time, though, they frequently have the religious freedom of others in mind as well. Sometimes it is the thought that “I can’t let this happen to others” that keeps people going despite the harassment, hatred, and even threats they have to endure by the “good Christian” neighbors.

Perhaps it is because when it comes to beliefs, non-believers are outnumbered? Or, perhaps atheists are ashamed?!

Yes, we atheists are outnumbered - but I see no evidence of nonbelievers being ashamed. Many are, however, afraid because of the discrimination and hatred they often experience when revealing their ideas. It is precisely because of people like Roland that atheists are afraid in the first place in fact. Perhaps if people spent less time judging and attacking atheists and more time asking questions, trying to understand atheism, this wouldn’t happen so much.

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