When religious pluralism and diversity grows, people need to become a bit more sensitive towards others. As the numbers of adherents of traditional Christianity drops, the less justified it is to simply assume that everyone around is celebrating the usual Christian holidays and doing the traditional Christian things. Civility and politeness mean accepting the presence of such differences and not turning them into a point of contention or conflict. Unfortunately, Christian Nationalists aren't interested in this. Instead, they deliberately use Christmas as a rallying cry for their dominionist agenda.
Read Article: The Grinch Was Right We Must Stop Christmas
People celebrated the end of the old year and the coming of the new year long before the so-called coming of christianity. Chrismas was enforced on us by force of arms. If anyone stole anything it was the Christians.
Interesting comment “force of arms”. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and telling you to celebrate Christmas. Ridiculous!
Happy Christmas. Jesus is the reason for the season.
later…
It may not be fair to say that “Christmas was forced on us by force of arms,” however, Christianity certainly was. It was, for example, forced on the Saxons by Charlemagne, and it was forced on the Balts by the Teutonic Knights … to use just two examples I might cite.
Heck, Christians have even been known to use force to make other types of Christians become their type of Christian.
The cold fact is that, for most of its history, Christianity has never been keen on living peacefully with non-Christians or with Christians who aren’t quite like them. During the Enlightenment that began to change. But here in the US, Christian Nationers are steering Christianity back to its old habit of refusing to accept that there are non-Christians in the world. And in fact, a lot of them are using Christmas as a wedge issue in order to accomplish it.
Well, well another evangelical who has not read his history. Christianity was enforced on the Roman Empire by Emperor Constantine in the fourth century, prior to that Christianity was a minority religion along with many others. Constantine did it to keep the Empire, which was on its last legs, together. This good Christian, Constantine, murdered his own sister and other members of his family. Christmas was then forced on the populace who prior to that held fertility festivals at the end of the year. Read some other books Dano, instead of that fairy tale book, the bible.
Hey Sean,
I stand corrected…
Indeed, I do need to brush up on my ancient History studies especially, Constantine, but High School was a long time ago.
I do not condone his murdering his own sister and his family. It just goes to show how power misused can corrupt.
By the way, believe it or not I enjoy reading other books but find studying the Bible fascinating and no it is not the only book I read.
I am reading a book by Dr. Francis Collins, a researcher and human genome mapper(DNA). Collins is a Christian. His book The Language of God: A Scientist Pressents Evidence for Belief, proposes that modern scientific discovers support religious faith. Intersting…
One last point. Unless you have read the Bible cover to cover and studied it extensively I will accept your conclusion of it as a “fairy tale book.”
Happy, Merry, Jolly, Christmas.
Francis Collins’ basic explanation for why he became a Christian is, quite frankly, absurd.
I assume there was a typographical mistake in this:
“Unless you have read the Bible cover to cover and studied it extensively I will accept your conclusion of it as a ‘fairy tale book.’”
But, maybe not.
I think Dano is serious John.
Jesus is not the “reason for the season”. That is a fact.
I watched a very interesting and informative program today on PBS about a court trial a couple of years ago in Dover, Pennsylvania, to determine if intelligent design was going to be taught in their local school district science class. The judge had been appointed through Santorum and Bush [i.e., dumb and dumber]. Yet after hearing all of the evidence from both sides, the judge just had to rule in favor of keeping intelligent design out of the science class. Intelligent design just wasn’t science. It also came out that the creationists true intention was to eventually push evolution out of the classroom altogether (my kid was running around and yelling during the program but I do believe that was what I heard). Furthermore, one of the people interviewed on the program said something very interesting that went something like this: You just can’t reason with people who zealously believe that their belief in Jesus is necessary in order to avoid [an alleged] hell after death.
And it’s not just a belief in a higher power of “some sort” that they believe in, but it’s been narrowed down to specifics which many of us find crazy. And I hate it when they try to govern based on their [irrational] beliefs. Basically, they’re saying that since life can’t be explained there must be a creator and therefore Jesus died on the cross, came back to life, is the son of God and is the Messiah. Wow, what a jump in logic! It is my opinion that it has lasted this long because they have it in writing [religious texts] and they continually infect the next generation. That “Jesus camp” I saw on the news last summer was quite scary. It is my hope that the further removed in time that we get from biblical times, coupled with scientific advances, and the fact that no messiah ever shows up, that people will begin to see it for what it was. But, of course, there will probably always be holdouts.
“One last point. Unless you have read the Bible cover to cover and studied it extensively I will accept your conclusion of it as a “fairy tale book.”
Happy, Merry, Jolly, Christmas. ”
If you can’t make up your mind about a religious text without reading and studying it extensively, where does that leave you as to the Qur’an, the Ramayana, the Book of Changes, and the Popol Vuh?
Marc, I watched most of that PBS program the other night, too. It was fascinating how the science folks found the “smoking gun” in a 1980s document which had the word “creationism” zapped out (mostly, but poorly) and the words, “Intelligent Design” typed in its place. I hope this show airs again so I can watch the whole thing from the beginning.
DeeGee… I’m sure it will be on again. I need to tape it so I can watch without interruptions. It was a great documentary. It was a groundbreaking case in my opinion but no seems to talk about it and the Evangelists just keep pushing their agenda.
Christmas, regardless of its Christian origins, is harmless. The real problem is that we concentrate on the products of religion and fail to comprehend the origins of God and the resultant religions. Early man had no science with which to understand the violence of nature, death, and birth. Early man invented gods to fulfill his need for answers, and it was these baseless answers that formed the basis for religions. It really is just that simple, folks. Religion ain’t no mystery.
>I am reading a book by Dr. Francis Collins, a researcher and human genome mapper(DNA). Collins is a Christian. His book The Language of God: A Scientist Pressents Evidence for Belief, proposes that modern scientific discovers support religious faith. Intersting…
What do other scientists have to say about Collins conclusions? Are his findings accepted in the mainstream?
I find it interesting that Dano’s “other books” consist of books that reinforce his Bible, and not challenge it.
I have read and studied the Bible. And I have further studied how the Bible came to be. I just posted this yesterday at another forum, but I think it is relevant here as well:
“I was a Christian when I began to look up the origins of the Bible. Prior to that, I simply believed what Josh McDowell said he had learned through his research. Unfortunately, he didn’t say a lot of other things that I’m sure must have come up in his research. After my friends questioned the validity of what I’d been told, I went to the library at my university where I looked up reference books (not atheist books making anti-Xian claims or books by apologists trying to prove their own views)–and found that my friends were correct. The Bible was a hodge podge put together here and there by person X and person Y, revised, edited, and eventually canonized in the form we have today–with seemingly no divine instruction anyone could point to that it should be created. All done on man’s initiative. When I brought my concerns to my preacher–as a good Xian should–I was told that I had to just trust that god’s hand guided the process. In other words, I had to accept that what men did was god’s work, without anything from god indicating that was actually the case. This is where my “faith” in the Bible began to fall apart.
“Since then I’ve learned of at least two significant passages that have been forged and added to the texts that are still in there to this day. In versions that contain editors’ notes, this is actually called out as a forgery. The one I came across on my own was John 7:53 through 8:11, where the New American Standard Bible states, ‘Later mss add the story of the adulterous woman, numbering it as John 7:53-8:11′; and the New International Version states, ‘The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.’ Later someone else pointed out the same issue in another passage, ironically, the Great Commission verses. In the NIV it says, ‘The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20′; in the NASB it states, ‘Later mss add vv 9-20.’
“These are two very scholarly translations that are academically solid, using teams of translators with significant degress and knowledge between them. These people had access to the Qumran scrolls, and so has far more texts available to scrutinize than, for example, the King James translators. And they agree that the Bible contains passages that have been added in later years. And they are in Xian Bibles to this day.
“Josh McDowell claimed the books were meticulously copied and that no such errors could be in the Bible. He’s flat out wrong. It’s not atheists defying him; the marginal notes in the Bible itself defy his claim. The texts are not original and are not trustworthy. They are compilations that have been revised at will by people unknown over hundreds and hundreds of years. The claims within the book should not be considered historically reliable by anyone, which is not to say that there is nothing within its pages that could ever be or is not now historically accurate. It’s only to say that it’s not exactly a historic reference text I’d want to rely on too heavily.”
***
So, if I trust the scholars who have translated what are arguably the best translations of the books to date–yes, I think it’s fair to call the books “fairytales.”
>I find it interesting that Dano’s “other books” consist of books that reinforce his Bible, and not challenge it.
I forgot to add to this, that I also find it interesting that Dano will give high regard to the minority scientist/s who claim science supports his religious view–and toss out the vast majority of men/women of science who believe their findings conflict with his religious views.
It would seem Dano is only interested in what a scientists has to say in so far as he is able to find some/any scientist who agrees with what Dano already believes. Not exactly a testament to his commitment to the idea that what he believes should align with what is most likely to be true. Simply sounds like a recipe for keeping the bias alive.
Marc, just a few hours after I read your reply, the show aired again on another PBS station I get in my area. This time, I missed only the first 30 minutes of the 2-hour documentary. [The show began at 1:30 AM this morning and being a night-owl and not having to work today, I was awake.] I put the VCR on and went to sleep.
The “extra” 45 minutes I watched this time included a lot of heavily scientific testimony which included lots of nice images but was not as interesting to me as the part I had already seen (and was happy to see again) about the community’s response and the politics following Judge Jones’ decision.
With only 30 more minutes left to view, I will be on the lookout for those 2 PBS stations as well as a third one I get on my cable TV system.
A Hindu I met recently claimed to have seen a rock in a Hindu church in India that floated in water and had the name of the god Ram written on it. Assuming this is true, does anyone else know anything about it or if this happens or has happened to other rocks?
411314:
Man, I’m reaching way back in my head–but aren’t there rocks that float? I seem to recall seeing one do that in an old science class–like some sort of lava-type rock that has a lot of holes/air pockets?
OMG! It is a children’s “geo” fun-time experiment. I found this online:
http://www.childrensmuseum.org/geomysteries/floatingrock/a1.html
Thanks, tracieh!
Ohh, here’s a good one! While Googling around for the pagan origins of Xmas I found this gem. I’m not sure if it’s christian or jewish, but they sure rip into Xmas!
(I love how anagrams mean so much for these types, observe this quote from what follows) -
“The word “Santa,” rearranged, spells “S-A-T-A-N,” and “Claus” is reminiscent of “Claws” — in other words, “SATAN’S CLAWS”! Do you want Satan, the arch-enemy of mankind, to get his “claws” into your children?”
What a leap! From “reminiscent of” to “in other words” in a single bound!
Anyhoo, here’s the link. Click away!
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.htm
While studying for my sunday school lesson I came across this website and decided to browse. I guess as a Christian all I can say is Christmas, to me, reflects nothing other than the celebration of the birth of Christ. Yep, growing up we incorporated good ‘ole Santa into the mix, but as a part of my actualy belief Christmas represents the birth of Christ. I’m one of those people who live by faith and believe that Christ is, indeed the Son of God, that He died on the cross so I might have a life after this one, and that he rose again and ascended into Heaven. It’s fine if you scoff and choose not to believe – that’s the great thing about God – He gives us that choice. I’d much rather believe and, if you guys are right, never know my belief was wasted, than to not believe and find out you guys are wrong. I wish you all peace, and, as Dano said, a joyous Christmas season to you all. May His grace and love surround you always.
Oh no! It’s Pascal’s wager again! I refuse to dignify that with any comment about it. Instead, I prefer to reiterate why I choose atheism.
I have read both the OT and NT, and many books on philosophy and religion. I have always been an avid reader and because of a wide range of informative and factual historical volumes, as well, I became an atheist.
It was reason and knowledge that convinced me, not brainwashing. No one tried to convert me. I really get weary of these people who have never read anything that doesn’t reach outside their limited biblical construct and claim they have the truth and the facts, when they have never ventured out of their limited milieu.
Sojourner, I too, am an avid reader and have read much and become “knowledgeable.” I tout myself as a “reasonable” person and not one who is brainwashed. It’s interesting, isn’t it? Many who choose not to believe think we, who do, are brainwashed into doing so or that we are incapable of thinking on our own. There are those of us who believe BECAUSE of what we have read and seen as well as our life experiences. I have no secret agenda to persuade you or anyone else of His existence, and I certainly didn’t expect you to “dignify” my initial comment by making one of your own, but interestingly enough, you did. I simply felt I should make my thoughts “heard,” and apparently I have.
My life is not one without turmoil. I question a lot of what happens on this planet and wish I knew all the answers but I don’t. I choose to leave my footprint on this world by living my life in a way I know He would approve. This way of living has made my life fuller and richer than it was before and my faith gives me the courage to face things I’d rather not face. If that’s ALL my faith in Him has to offer me, it’s enough.
Be happy, Sojourner, in whatever way you feel is right. No one should question that … as long as no harm comes to others through your choice. Again, may His peace, love and grace surround you always. I wish you happiness and love in your journey.
Debbie and others:
I do not need “Him” to live a good life, nor do I need to use “His” presence to make my life meaningful.
I have lived my life according to that which is in the best nature possible. I don’t need a book to tell me right from wrong or good from evil.
For instance, I, as an atheist have never used the bible as an excuse to discriminate against groups, gays or any ethnic or non-Caucasian; but how many Christian believers are doing just that? How many believers are trying to tear Gays who married or want to, asunder for their “moral” reasons? If this is faith, I will gladly stay a non-discriminatory atheist.
I am a Caucasian and Heterosexual, by the way. I also support the pro-choice idea, and complete separation of church and state. I do not see religions as the truth or answer to anything good or evil, positive or negative on this earth.
If people actually took full responsibility for themselves, instead of invoking “God’s will” or relying on something outside of themselves, this would probably be a better world. “God has his reasons, we don’t understand the mind of God” is no answer to anything.
How anyone can attribute a three year old dying a painful and horrible death, while another is healthy and happy to the “Will of God”, I’ll never know.
To worship this arbitrary randomness, must really cause a schism in anyone’s “Faith”. This is to me a total disconnect between reason and fantasy.
If you or others can reconcile that, I can see how blinded and brainwashed you really must be and I rest my case.
You say “I question a lot of what happens on this planet and wish I knew all the answers but I don’t.”; I, too, question. However, I don’t look to some power outside of myself for some unknowable answer. I realize, I don’t know and that’s fine with me. There’s nothing wrong in saying “I just don’t know”.
This was going to be a very short reply, but there seems to be so much to say. Especially now, when some believers are trying so hard to destroy rights that the constitution guarantees, to placate some ideology that wants to destroy rather than build. People like this would probably be very happy in a country like Iraq. They’d probably enjoy an American, Christian Taliban, too.
I do not exaggerate, some believers are just that rigid and militant. I have mentioned this site many times here but I wish some of these believers would at least,visit a site called “Fundies Say the Darndest Things” It might possibly open some of their eyes.
This is their URL:
http://www.fstdt.com/?
Debbie and others:
I do not need “Him” to live a good life, nor do I need to use “His” presence to make my life meaningful.
I have lived my life according to that which is in the best nature possible. I don’t need a book to tell me right from wrong or good from evil.
For instance, I, as an atheist have never used the bible as an excuse to discriminate against groups, gays or any ethnic or non-Caucasian; but how many Christian believers are doing just that? How many believers are trying to tear Gays who married or want to, asunder for their “moral” reasons? If this is faith, I will gladly stay a non-discriminatory atheist.
I am a Caucasian and Heterosexual, by the way. I also support the pro-choice idea, and complete separation of church and state. I do not see religions as the truth or answer to anything good or evil, positive or negative on this earth.
If people actually took full responsibility for themselves, instead of invoking “God’s will” or relying on something outside of themselves, this would probably be a better world. “God has his reasons, we don’t understand the mind of God” is no answer to anything.
How anyone can attribute a three year old dying a painful and horrible death, while another is healthy and happy to the “Will of God”, I’ll never know.
To worship this arbitrary randomness, must really cause a schism in anyone’s “Faith”. This is to me a total disconnect between reason and fantasy.
If you or others can reconcile that, I can see how blinded and brainwashed you really must be and I rest my case.
You say “I question a lot of what happens on this planet and wish I knew all the answers but I don’t.”; I, too, question. However, I don’t look to some power outside of myself for some unknowable answer. I realize, I don’t know and that’s fine with me. There’s nothing wrong in saying “I just don’t know”.
This was going to be a very short reply, but there seems to be so much to say. Especially now, when some believers are trying so hard to destroy rights that the constitution guarantees, to placate some ideology that wants to destroy rather than build. People like this would probably be very happy in a country like Iraq. They’d probably enjoy an American, Christian Taliban, too.
I do not exaggerate, some believers are just that rigid and divisive. I have mentioned this site many times here but I wish even some of these believers would visit a site called “Fundies Say the Darndest Things.com” It might possibly open some of their eyes.
This is their URL
http://www.fstdt.com/?
It happened again, It got in twice somehow. I made some minor corrections, but I didn’t realize it was re-set, as well. The funny thing is it’s the first one that’s the correction. Sorry, folks. (If you can, Austin, just delete the second version)
Sojourner, I too, am pro-choice, believe in the separation of church and state, do not discriminate against anyone – believe that people have the choice to be with whom they wish and deserve the rights we all are afforded, regardless of race, religious belief (or non-belief), ethnicity, or anything else. I do believe that the term “marriage” defines a unity between a man and a woman, I do believe there is a difference between the two or we would all be of the same gender. That doesn’t mean I am trying to “tear Gays asunder.” I have 2 really good friends that are gay … they have no problem with my beliefs. I don’t impose my belief system on anyone – if they ask why I choose to believe the way I do, I’ll be happy to tell them. My life is richer for it.
I must say that reading your reply makes me sad for you. Not because you don’t believe, that’s okay … it’s your choice and right. I respect that. But because you sound angry and even though you think yourself open-minded, I don’t think you are. You seem to want to lash out. Your reaction to what I say is very closed-minded and that’s what saddens me. We all have one shot on this planet to live our lives the best way we can. I try to do that. I just find my life is more “alive” by incorporating Him in it. You know, …, to really make your point, all you have to do is say, “Deb, I’m happy for you that you’ve chosen a road to something that will make you fulfilled if that’s what works for you.” Instead, you choose to tear, or attempt to tear, away at the fabric that makes me who I am. That’s closed-minded, whether you’re a Believer or not. Many of my friends are non-believers and I love and respect them as much as I do my Christian friends.
I’m glad you’ve found your place in this world, Sojourner. And I will continue, to wish you His peace, love and grace. That’s a “gift” He gives us … we can accept it or reject it, but He will always offer it. Blessings to you and yours.
Debbie:
“Be happy, Sojourner, in whatever way you feel is right. No one should question that … as long as no harm comes to others through your choice.”
“I do believe that the term “marriage” defines a unity between a man and a woman”
You may not see a conflict here, but I think this goes the the heart of what Sojourner was trying to get across to you. The question is not what you believe, but why you believe it, especially if you want your belief enshrined in law.
Marriage is a human institution, defined by humans and subject to change (there have been many changes). You may believe it was instigated by your god, but that is a religious conception and has no place in civil law. That is what we’re talking about after all; civil law. No-one is trying to force Christian churches, for example, to have same-sex marriage ceremonies. Civil marriage has civil and legal repercussions. Can you give us any reason why same-sex couples should be denied marriage? That there is a “difference” between men and women is a Non sequitur. There are many differences between many things, you need to explain why this particular difference is relevant to the question at hand. The reason I can’t marry my computer or a pet is because both would be incapable of fulfilling their legal obligations as my spouse. Can the same case be made for same-sex couples? Remember, there is no legal obligation for married couples to have children.
Where is the harm in not allowing same-sex marriage? If Christian unions were stripped of their civil and legal benefits, rights and obligations, I’m sure you wouldn’t have trouble seeing the damage.
I can see the same sex marriage debate from both sides. On one side, the Christians feel that to call same sex marriage “marriage” is offensive to their religious beliefs. For them it’s a freedom of religion issue. On the other hand, to deny same sex marriage is a civil violation. So no matter whose side you choose, one group will feel deeply offended. I used to feel the solution would be to extend the rights of marriage to same sex couples but call it something else. But that would devalue their relationship compared to traditional marriage. It would be like giving the rights of citizenship, voting, land ownership etc. to African Americans, but still calling them the N word.
I find it atrocious that California overturned gay marriage by a vote. What civil rights actions have been advanced through a vote? If we had waited for civil rights to be won through popular vote, I’m sure minorities and women would still be unable to vote.
“Their agenda is labeled ‘dominionist’ because dominion is exactly what they are seeking: dominion over the legal, political, cultural, and economic institutions of all American society.”
You wouldn’t know irony if Irony walked up to you an announced, “Hey, I’m Irony!”
Instead of spelling it out for you, I’ll let you figure out the humor. But here’s a hint: the message on your poster.
Pot, meet Kettle.
The post is satire, designed to mock the things which conservative evangelicals accuse atheists of. The poster graphically represent what atheists are accused of doing in order to showcase just how absurd those accusations are.
It’s always amusing when someone comes along and can’t recognize satire when they see it. It’s also a little sad.
The religious “freedom” that Christians are denied is of their imposing their current! views of marriage on the whole of American society.
The “civil violation” that people who are different suffer is the denial of marriage rights.
The “freedom” to dictate is in no way equal to the “offense” of being denied the same civil rights as everyone else.
Oh noes! Not Christmas! Anything but that!