Conservative Christians frequently complain that atheists and liberals are undermining Christmas, but these complaints depend upon a great deal of ignorance about the history of Christmas and how Christmas has been celebrated. An examination of Christian history reveals that religion has been stripped from Christmas, as well as from other Christian holidays, over a long time now - and by Christians themselves, primarily the conservative Protestants who are today complaining the loudest.
Read Article: Secularizing Christmas Holidays: Christians Undermined, Secularized Christmas
How sad for you. God is evident in every cell of your body and every living creatue…his design is so obvious….
How are you defining God, Mr. Gellatly? God = carbon?
Say, are you related to the Gellatlys of the Gellarly Nut Farm?
http://www.gellatlynutfarm.ca/
Sorry, don’t see it. Can you provide any actual evidence beyond saying “it’s obivious”?
How sad for you, Mr. Gellatly, for you must listen to some figment of your imagination for guidance, while the rest of us go on with our lives in peace. How sad for you, Mr. Gellatly, that you cannot even construct a rational argument that’s backed up with evidence, while we actually have ideas that stand on their own two feet.
Next time, don’t feel sorry for atheists. Feel sorry for yourself.
I, for one, really miss celebrating the Circumcision of Jesus. that was a big deal in the old school Catholic Church of my youth.
man that Gellatlys got some nerve making empty assertions. yeah I see it a lot so it gets to me a little.
)
It’s amazing to me that something so pervasive in our environment as “god” should be so hard to illustrate as actually existing. I can’t think of any other examples of things that are “everywhere” but that can’t be detected by any means available to mankind. No light, no heat, no energy, no mass, nothing at all that shows up as actually representing “god”–and yet, it’s all over the place.
???
Even in the cancerous cells?
I, for one, really miss celebrating the Circumcision of Jesus. that was a big deal in the old school Catholic Church of my youth.
I hope this celebration was not accompanied by a school play.
It’s really easy. Morality. Without God there is no need for morality. As a true atheist you should deny right and wrong.
You cannot do it. Therefore, I don’t believe in atheists.
Prove it.
I deny that.
So long as you cannot prove that any of your premises are true, I do not believe in your conclusion. So long as your premises are nothing more than bigoted lies, I do not believe that you sincerely desire an honest discussion.
Well, Tyrone, in that case i don’t believe in theists. i can say with equal lack of evidence that theists are scared sheep. Conforming to the social norms because they are too dumb to do otherwise. They fear the unknown and fear to think for themselves.
Morality has nothing to do with imaginary beings. People are moral because for most people, being good feels good. Being good makes life easier for everyone. We also like to repay others for the good in our lives. When i do good in the world, i’m not doing it for some post mortem reward, or out of mindless conformity, but because it makes my life, and the lives of those around me better.
I think it’s awful how people claim that morality originates in religion!
That means morality originates in fear (“you will burn in hell”) and selfishness (“do as god says and you’ll go to heaven”).
Couldn’t have said it better myself, Todd.
Matter of fact, Tyrone, despite my “immorality,” my charity went up several notches AFTER I became a rationalist, an unbeliever, which happened following much serious study and research. I feel I owe the world something for the benefits I have derived from it.
Dare to think for yourself, Tyrone! Don’t meekly submit yourself to be fooled by the age-old myths, superstitions and fairy tales of theists, in effect shoving aside the intelligence you were born with!
I neither expect nor desire a quid pro quo. I give with no thought of reward, because there is no reward.
Your charity may be much more than mine, but you give because of the “promise” of something in return — eternal life — which is just wishful thinking.
My gifts are unconditional.
Have you ever given any thought as to why your church — ALL churches and ALL religions, without exception — must resort to death threats to keep their followers, sending them on guilt trips while instilling in them fear of a “hell” that doesn’t exist?
I am an outright atheist! Why? Because I was born with common sense! Use it!!!!!!!!!!!
Nick 6493
Objection.. Quakers don’t preach the Heaven and Hell bit. As a matter of fact they only preach Non Violence the rest you can accept or reject as the spirit moves you. Nope I’m not one, my late wife was. Atheist all my life. Don’t drink alcohol, drug, smoke and never to the racetrack. 46 years married and only the one woman in my life, even now, and she has been dead eleven years.. Terrible morality we atheists.
I wonder what the percentage of Christians have a similar track record. I’m a smug old bastard. Forgive; just an Australian epithet, often used in endearment.
tomedgar@halenet.com.au
Tyrone says: “… I don’t believe in atheists.”
Tyrone, do you mean you don’t believe we exist? Are atheists figments of someone’s imagination?
I’m an atheist. You can see me, hear me, touch me, smell me —you could even taste me if you wanted to. You can photograph me, measure my temperature, listen to my heart beat. You could use high-tech medical diagnostic tools to scan my brain and other bodily functions.
Yet you believe in a god that you can’t detect with any of your senses or with any instruments?
Incredible what people will believe.
I like to ask christians how they think they would live their lives differently or how their lives would be different if they didn’t believe in god and religion. They often look at me in a very confused way.
It’s often the case that “arguments” theists attempt to make against atheists tell you far more about the theist then they do about atheism.
For example, when Tyrone says “Without God there is no need for morality. As a true atheist you should deny right and wrong.” What he’s ACTUALLY saying is that, if his god is taken out of the picture, he can literally think of NOTHING that would stop him being a cold-blooded killer.
Him and people like him need a god to restrain their hideous bloodlust. Anyone who makes the “Without god what’s the point of being good” argument is telling you the same thing about themselves.
It’s often true that Christian apologists appear to be stating that Christianity is for sociopaths. It follows, then, that if you’re not a sociopath, you don’t need Christianity.
So, Tyrone, just so I have this clear . . . if a person is conversing with you, you don’t “believe” he exists. Yet you claim that you “believe” your god does exist.
I think we’ve cleared up this little mess. You don’t know what the word “believe” means. You seem to think it means the opposite of what it actually does.
Great point from Mark. I don’t need religion because I’m not a sociopath. I can do the right thing without the threat of punisment or the bribery of a reward.
Tyrone, societies throughout recorded history that had no belief in your xian god have determined rules by which the members of that society may successfully coexist. These rules maintain order, they are self preserving in nature. They are a sign of evolving intelligence among species. We see the same rules that have evolved in different non-human animal populations. I do not need your god to tell me that if we humans go around killing each other indiscriminately or whenever we experience a whim, chaos would ensue. Hence the development of law. If the story of Moses holds any validity, he may have been a very intelligent man. He may have understood that he could control an extremely superstitious and primitive societal group by telling them the rules he thought up came from a supernatural being. Improved compliance!
I’m a pagan that was brought up catholic. As I became one, I realized how much of Christmas(the same with Candlemas, Easter, Mayday, midsummer, and Halloween) wasn’t really christian. Although I do observe Yule, I continue to celebrate christmas with my family because of tradition and nothing else. There was never Christmas in my eyes. Jesus might have existed, but in all reality, it was never a virgin birth. Couldn’t have been and if it was by that severe off chance, then Jesus was in fact a woman (or star wars has a bit of truth to it). If Jesus existed at all and was not Joseph’s kid then Mary was a whore or raped by a guard or something…just always felt like I had the need to say that…
Just in case it isn’t obvious to everyone, I’m sure Tyrone meant that he doesn’t believe anyone is an atheist, because an atheist wouldn’t believe in right and wrong/good and evil, and we, for the most part, do believe in right and wrong, ie, have morality. The argument works for him because he can’t imagine morality without God, therefore any moral person believes in God. Given his framework, I’ll take his disbelief that I’m an atheist as a compliment on my morality (except for the part where he apparently thinks I’m lying about being an atheist).
I keep this link handy for people like Tyrone:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html
It is an article in the telegraph summarizing a list of demonstational research showing the other species that demonstrate morality.
Oddly, they don’t demonstrate any theistic beliefs.
A rat can figure out morality, but people aren’t bright enough?
Morality does not originate in religion. It originates in God. Suppose that God exists for a moment. He, being the cause of all existence, shows his character in nature and in revelation. Morality being a sense of right and wrong, a correct morality would follow the character of God.
There are other sources of morality apart from God. For example: avoidance of suffering, empathy, rules of society, and a personal conscience. However, I prefer an unchanging standard (God) to a changing standard (man-made right and wrong). Understandably, my actions will change as I come to know God better, but it is me that changes and not God.
Prove it. But post somewhere else, like the forum, because that’s off-topic here. It’s rude.
What I find very sad, is since you guys cant believe in anything you cant see and touch. I am sad for you taht you probably then do not believe in LOVE. Love can not be measured or weighed, it is not a physical thing, therefore it can not be real.
Sad.
No, what’s sad is people who make assumptions about others whom they don’t know and have never met.
That’s you, by the way.
Next time, ask people what they believe and why instead of just assuming that you already know.
I read the artical about keeping christ in christmas the secion that deals with christmas trees being pegan I think that even though the pegan religion uses christmas trees with there celabration it doesn’t mean the same as christian although the symbol is the same doesn’t mean that it doesn’t also belong in different religions instead of removing the trees celabrate with the symbol using the meaning that is right for you I am a christian the symbol of the christmas simply mean the triangle for the holy trenity the evergreen for eturnity green for life pine needles the hand the worship lights for heven orniments to tell the story gifts for love and chairity it doesn’t matter who else has this symbol or where the it came from it only matter what it means to you so think about this holliday season what does your season symbols mean to you it doesn’t matter what you celibrate but why you celabrate that matter have a blessed holiday to all may god walk with you
stephanie, punctuation is your friend, don’t ignore your friend.
Please read Jeremiah 10:3-4 for enlightenment on Christmas Trees.