Military Funeral
November 11, 2010 in Elwood, Illinois
Photo: Scott Olson/Getty Images
In Texas, three Christian military organizations -- Veterans of Foreign Wars District 4, the American Legion Post 586, and the National Memorial Ladies -- have filed suit against the VA because the Veterans' Administration doesn't include Christian prayers in vets' funerals unless the deceased and/or the family request it. They are claiming that Christianity and Christians are being discriminated against when Christianity isn't inserted into every funeral, whether the family wants it or not.
So it's official: there's no extreme to which some Christians won't go in order to claim to be victimized by others choosing to not submit to Christianity. Yes, that's right, non-Christians choose to not follow Christianity means that Christians are being victimized and persecuted. Crazy? Of course, but that's reality in America today.
"It makes my skin crawl that liberals are attempting to drive prayer out of a funeral ceremony for our heroes," Texas Rep. John Culbersontold Fox News, which has given significant airtime to the controversy. "We're going to fix this so that no Obama liberal bureaucrat will interfere with the funeral of a hero." In addition to supporting the lawsuit, Culberson has threatened to stop the salary of the cemetery director who enforced the no-consent-no-God rule and to hold hearings in the fall investigating the VA's anti-Christian stance. ...
Marilyn Koepp, secretary of National Memorial Ladies, a volunteer group that attends veterans' funerals, shares her woes with Fox News: "It's very hard for me to be at the funeral of one of our veterans ... and we just make that decision that we will say God bless you, and how can someone tell us, no you can't."
Source: Alternet [emphasis added]
The VA's position is both clear and correct:
"The idea that invoking the name of God or Jesus is banned at VA national cemeteries is blatantly false. The truth is VA's policy protects veterans' families' rights to pray however they choose at our national cemeteries. Put simply, VA policy puts the wishes of the veteran's family above all else on the day it matters most -- the day they pay their final respects to their loved one."
It's great that the VA has adopted the correct, moral, legal, and constitutional position. Sadly, other military institutions are far less tolerant of non-Christians. Arlington Cemetery, the only Army-run cemetery in America, is including Christianity in military funeral ceremonies even when families make it clear that they don't want it:
MAAF president Jason Torpy recently presided over a ceremony at Arlington for decorated WWII pilot John Hormuth and his wife Mattie. With children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren in attendance, the Hormuths wanted to be remembered in accordance with their beliefs.But even though the family was explicit about not wanting any religious components to their service, these wishes were not met. In particular, a volunteer from the Arlington Ladies blessed the mourning family and presented a religious card "on behalf of the chief of staff of the Army."
The Army and the Arlington administration have yet to respond to the family's demand for action to end unwanted religious intrusions or to MAAF's request for comment. "The Chief of Staff of the Army should ensure that the Arlington Ladies are not praying on his behalf,"MAAF stated in response to this incident.
"The Army should ensure that Arlington National Cemetery includes religious content only at the request of the family and only under the supervision of the chaplains. MAAF applauds the care and dedication of the Arlington Ladies and other similar groups, but their care must not come at the cost of government-sponsored religious speech that is against a family's wishes."
So non-Christians want to have funeral ceremonies which reflect their beliefs, even if that means not including any references to any gods. Christians, in contrast, want the funeral ceremonies to include references to God and to Christian beliefs no matter what the families want or believe. It's discriminatory against Christians when their beliefs are not included in all military funeral ceremonies, even the ceremonies for non-Christians.
Make sense? Of course not. That's why the case can only be made by people who lie and/or offer irrational, nonsensical arguments.
This is pretty emblematic of the Christian position that I keep reading:
[Nobleton] Jones said he has presented shell casings from the gun salute to veterans' grieving family members at funerals in Houston National Cemetery for the past three years.
But after a burial ceremony May 16, Jones said a government official told him he could no longer recite the words he always says when he hands over the shells: "We ask that God grant you and your family grace, mercy and peace."
The 66-year-old Houstonian said he felt belittled. "That makes me feel smaller, even after I spent my time in the military, fighting so that people should be able to say that," he said.
"I did all this for my country and you are going to tell me what I can and can't say?"
Source: Houston Chronicle
So Nobleton Jones feels "belittled" when he's not allowed to express his religious beliefs during an official government ceremony unless the family requests it? How is that "belittling" -- does he really need to engage in unwanted evangelizing in order to feel "big"? Does it make him more of a man to impose his religion where it's not wanted? I don't know, but I don't see many other ways to interpret those words -- and it wouldn't surprise me because that's exactly the sort of attitude that I've been seeing more and more in recent years.
Yes, Nobleton Jones, the government can indeed tell you what you can and cannot say when you're participating in an official government ceremony for someone else. When you participate in such a ceremony, it's not your ceremony. It doesn't belong to you. You, Nobleton Jones, don't get to decide what will and will not be included. It's not for you to say, it's for the family. Only the family can decide whether religion will be included and, if so, what sort of religion and what form it will take. Not you.
It's great that you want to volunteer at military funerals, but if you're going to do it then you have to be willing to accede to the wishes of the families -- you're supposed to volunteer for their sake, not for your own. Volunteering is supposed to be an act of generosity, not religious selfishness. When you conform your words to the wishes of the families, you're acting out of generosity; when you insist on pushing your religion on others regardless of what they want, you're acting like a selfish SOB.
It's really not that hard to figure out. I'll bet Christians would be outraged if Muslims volunteered and expressed Muslim beliefs with Arabic terminology at Christian funeral ceremonies. Christians like Nobleton Jones who can't see or understand this are demonstrating a complete failure of basic moral imagination and human decency. Because of that, they probably shouldn't be allowed to be at the funerals at all.
Your last paragraph hit it home. If this were a group of Muslims protesting their faith wasn’t included, this would be covered 24/7 by fox as an attack on their civil liberties. But since they’re on the side of the people that are getting shut down, suddenly Christianity is under fire.
It has nothing to do with what religion it is. If the family doesn’t want it, then don’t do it. Their son or daughter made the ultimate sacrifice, and they shouldn’t have to hear things they may not believe in at the closure of the final chapter of that life.
Sadly, this is another case of Christians equating the loss of their privilege (and being treated like everyone else) as discrimination against them.
Thankfully, the VA did not cave on this.
As an atheist and a retired veteran, I was extremely happy to here the VA didn’t cave on this issue either. I also went to the measures of writing the VFW and let them know what I thought of their stance in this issue and promptly demitted my life membership in their organization.
when does any group that has a “loss of their privelage (and being treated like everyone else)” not equated with “discrimination against them” ?
@David if I’m reading you right you are saying that this DOES equate to discrimination?
When the WHITE man lost his privilege over the black man and was treated as equal with the black man, was it the WHITE man who was then being discriminated against? Or when MEN lost their privilege over women and began to be treated as equal with the woman was it the MAN who is being discriminated against?
So when the CHRISTIAN loses their privilege and begins to be treated as equal to every other faith system and even equal to those who choose to have NO Faith, How is it the CHRISTIAN who is being discriminated against?
I think the word that better describes the Christian position here is not discrimination… but domination. Christianity just like every other religion is all about control.
Well written. My wife and I frequently get comments about how god blessed us with a wonderful child….I wish I could opt out of those comments.
@ Trav.
If you wish to make such a comment at the funeral of a serviceman who’s family do not want religion in the ceremony, you are being self centered. (Especially so, to the parents of said serviceman, talking about your children and not their lost child.)
What you say on your own time is not a problem. What someone says as a part of someone elses ceremony (the family of the deceased) should conform to what the family of the deceased would wish. To do otherwise, is crass, unfeeling, and selfish.
The ceremony has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with the deceased and the family of the deceased. Understand that.
@Wrenn Did you read Trav’s comment before you responded?
Wrenn, you didn’t read Trav’s comment, or you didn’t understand it. Shame on you.
The American military vs American Christianity. What a match up!
Ideally, religion and armies would never exist. However in this world the former is supposedly a governmental and tax funded institution while the latter shouldn’t be anywhere near the government of any just and moral society.
Unfortunately, they share a lot in common: blindness, corruption, arrogance, self-service, ego-fulfillment and doing a fantastic job at dragging America down.
Are you kidding me? I am a medically retired veteran and your comments are totally out of line! Every last person I know in the military has served their nation with honor. We do not drag our nation down, we defend our nation and protect your rights to say ridiculous things as your post above. The absolute, only thing I agree with on your post is in regards to religion.
@Joe, he is not referring to the individuals who serve to the military, he refers to the concept and ideology that military has become. I understand that the military forces were created to defend our country from any foreign invasion or intrudes. unfortunately, military forces aren’t being use for such purpose, but to fulfill personal interest at a political level which you or any other veteran or individual cant take part on the decisions that are being made. I respect and admire any individual who is/was part of our defending forces, but it is really sad the way things has turned. it was embarrassing when the President of the US (George W. Bush) was asked why did he go to war in Iraq and he responded that “God asked me to end Saddam’s tyranny”. Sorry Joe, with all due respect, it is what it is.
Thank you for your service. I sincerely hope you’re able to function and that you didn’t give too much of your body.
As Joe noted the honor of individuals in the American Armed Forces is not in question. The honor of our leaders, some in the military, is at issue in Faisal’s post. That’s been lacking since Eisenhower left office.
A Vietnam era vet.
Religion and armies would never exist without each other…
Armies existed originally to take land near by, but I do agree the majority of army build up until probably the 1900s was due to religion.
That is absolutely appalling.
I’m beginning to honestly worry that the ignorant masses, who know nothing of history, theology and/or science, will be electing idiots just like themselves (Rick Perry, Michelle Bachman, et al) in the near future. Then watch your rights, and any semblance of democratic government disappear.
May reason help us all.
Why are there ads for christianmingle.com on the top of this page? SO OFFENSIVE! Somebody’s agenda is quite twisted…I can assure you, whoever you are, that as an atheist, your christian dating ads will do nothing to convert me to your illogical way of thinking…
Most ads are automatically targeted based on the content of a web page. This page says “christian” all over it, so the mighty interwebs assume a christian might meander through here.
Sid,
Thank you for answering about the Christianmingles ad. I get sick of answering it.
What he doesn’t understand is that another soldier’s funeral isn’t about HIM or what HE wants – it’s about the grieving family and honoring their loss. end of discussion.
if they don’t want god, they don’t get god. if they want a full jeezus ensemble, they get that – if they want Mohammed on a winged horse, that too. If they want a guy dressed as Anubis with a scale, I’m so cool with that (i’d probably ask to attend! XD). But it is up to the family and the beliefs of the dead, not the military or the other officers to assert themselves over the wishes of the mourning.
You delusional f*ks who force religion on everyone. You Christians wont be happy until everyone believes the same fairy tale you do but in reality hes DEAD, there is no god and his life was probably wasted in a pointless war.
It is a sad day indeed when these fundamentalist zealots won’t even consider the wishes of the fallen soldier’s family.
This is cut and dried: The military is subject to Federal Law. The First Amendment to the constitution says
“Congress Shall Make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” [emphasis added].
This means NO religion gets FAVORED over ANOTHER!
The suit is unconstitutional. It should be dropped before it gets thrown out of court.
Hey, Nobleton Jones, that soldier that is being buried while you make your scene at his funeral for YOUR sake, he, too, died for American rights. And, one of those rights is the right NOT to have religion forced down his throat. Even, if he is dead. He fought for the rights of his family NOT to have religious outpourings at his funeral even if it is NOT what you want. It isn’t your funeral. It isn’t your family. If you cannot respect the soldier that died and the suffering of his family, then, you should not go to the funeral for you are too selfish.
So opposite of the principles this country was built upon. Why don’t they take their religiosity and get another country where they can shove it down each others’ throat.
I really don’t see why people took the 66 year old guy presenting shell casings so personally when he gave the blessing. Even if it is religious, it’s still just a person giving a family his best wishes. I really don’t think the guy was trying to “push religion down peoples’ throats”, he was just earnestly wishing them the best in their time of suffering. That’s the way Christians give people their best wishes, after all. Even if God most likely doesn’t exist. I’m an agnostic, and I really wouldn’t care if a Christian came up to me at my veteran friend’s funeral and said “May God bless you in your time of suffering”, because I wouldn’t take it as an affront to my honor and my beliefs – I would receive it as an earnest wish for the best in such a dark time. I would receive a Muslim saying “May Allah grant you peace” or a pagan saying “May the almighty Zeus and all of Olympus smile on you and your family”. People just really need to look past the idea that people of religion are out to get them because they’re atheists. The same principle applies to the religious too, though.
Maybe the fact that it’s a funeral, where strong emotions run high, has something to do with it.
No, it’s someone representing the government giving a religious blessing. Against the wishes of the people to whom he is giving it.
How does this not seem improper to you?
Therefore, no one else should either?
If it’s not your funeral, you should respect the feelings and wishes of those who are actually involved; how you think you’d feel in their place just isn’t relevant and certainly can’t be used as any sort of standard.
Christians are suing for a right to inject their religion into other people’s funerals even when the other people don’t want it – those people might be atheist, Christians, or non-Christian.
How does this not strike you as inappropriate? How does this not strike you as “out to get” other people?
I would just like to give you a nice big thumbs up. Well put.
It’s interesting to note that both VFW and the American Legion were active in attempting to ban Fred Phelps and his gang of idiots from military funerals.
They apparently are quite selective in which Christian God is going to be present at the funerals of non-believers.
That’s funny…
Every other sect supposes itself in possession of the truth, and that those who differ are so far in the wrong. Like a man traveling in foggy weather they see those at a distance before them wrapped up in a fog, as well as those behind them, and also people in the fields on each side; but near them, all appears clear, though in truth they are as much in the fog as any of them. –Benjamin Franklin
I am BEYOND sick of religious aggression in this country.
This is bullying, pure and simple. Ok, non-xtians; time for the shoe to be on the other foot. Our live and let live is used against us, and xtians even say we don’t speak up because we “secretly know theirs is the True Religion” and differing beliefs – or non-beliefs – are wrong.
If someone did this at a funeral of my loved one, they’d be arresting me for intimidating their asses back to wherever they came from.
Enough. Time to hold non-xtian vigils outside their churches, handing out leaflets, billboards, etc, etc. ENOUGH.
These so called Christians need to pull their pants back up and quit trying to f*ck everyone over including the dead.
I first have to say that this was most likely the funniest thing I have read this week.
This is one of the reason’s I have always disliked Christianity and it’s sub religions. And I have come to see it as one of the most barbaric religions through the ages.
I respect their need to practice, and in every funeral I have attended or seen, there is always a time where we are given a “Moment of Silence” I feel that this time is for the family, and the attending to say their silent prayers. This time alloys those of any faith to make a wish/prayer for the departed.
This goes for all faiths including my own. If your faith is not included publicly due to the request of the departed’s family, that does not mean you are not allowed to add your prayer, but it means you need to respect their belief or non belief and keep your prayer in silence
I stated I dislike Christianity, that’s a truth, however I do not persecute or discriminate against the Christian person. Because their are a lot of wonderful people who follow their faith and are respectful to others. If only those people were the majority.
I would love to hear what Muslims think about this. Mind you, I would also like to hear the views of Buddhists, Jews, Shintos, Pagans, etc.
It really is about time that so-called Christians kept their religion to themselves. I saw a wonderful post on the internet the other day:
Religion is like a penis.
It’s fine to have one.
It’s fine to be proud of it.
But please don’t whip it out in public and start waving it around.
And PLEASE don’t try to shove it down my children’s throats.
Starchilde,
I think it would be a better world were it not shoved down ANY children’s throats. “Imagine”! I had it shoved down my throat and like Mark Twain, “I [still] cherish an unappeasable bitterness toward the unfaithful gardians of my young life.”
Grandpa
P.S. Borrowed from Cliff Walker’s positiveatheism.org — “Until the majority of the people are emancipated from authority over their minds, we are not safe.” — Lucy Colman, American abolitionist and freethinker, from Reminiscences, P 7.
Yeah, well Texas Representative John Culberson and others like him make MY skin crawl. Culberson’s use of words like “..our heroes…” is misleading. While it is indeed unfortunate that many of our soldiers have died in battle, we must examine what put them in harm’s way to begin with. The wars we currently wage are against countries who pose no threat the the United States of America. George W. Bush and people such as Representative Culberson have blood on their hands for selling our soldiers a “bill of goods” that amounts to nothing more than fighting for the rich man’s interests. Nothing like being used for a dupe by your own country…
This is another reason why I’m not only an Atheist, but Anti-Theist.
I think the reason for Christian hardheadedness in this matter is a combination of basic inner uncertainty about where the dead “hang out” — are they disembodied spirits? maybe — and their obligations to “try to save” the spirit of the dead soul. All that, and guilt (over being alive), and the stubbornness of national traditions. People will get it right (over time) that they must respect the family’s wishes in formal ceremonies — but they are completely unrestricted when it comes to praying to God on their own about these souls. Write their names down, and pray at home over them, folks; God will hear your prayers.
The fact is that at the moment of death, the Life you have lived determines your destination. Sometimes God or Christ Himself intervenes, sending you back into your body. But those who we’re burying have been put through the mortuary process. Wherever they’ve gone, they’re staying there. Let’s not dishonor them by fighting over prayers.