How do you feel about the singing of Christmas carols in public schools -- should they be permitted as part of traditional programs, or should they be ended entirely as unconstitutional religious observances? Personally, I don't feel that the presence of some carols should be a problem, especially those which are of a more general nature. So long as a music program isn't completely devoted to religious carols there probably aren't any legal issues here, but not everyone agrees
I don't like gag rules and I see no establishment of religion by singing a few songs. I feel perfectly capable of telling my son about myths and how they can be fun, but some people take them seriously. It wouldn't bother me one bit for him to sing "Silent Night" at school. ...
I don't see what the stink is. I don't believe in eliminating religious expression "by court order." So long as the child has the option not to participate, and has the opportunity to express other religious views, I find no oppressive government establishment of religion by singing a few songs. I think that we've much more important civil liberties issues with which to deal than a few songs the kid will hear on the radio or in the mall anyway.
If you were an atheist in school, or are an atheist with children in school, how did you deal with Christmas carols being incorporated into holiday events? Do you personally object to them or do you only object under particular circumstances? Add your thoughts to the comments here or join the ongoing discussion in the forum.
I think it is outrageous now how people think that celebrating Christmas is wrong. I do understand that some people have different religions but once upon a time this use to be a country where we celebrated Christmas and siad “Merry Christmas” to our fellow neighbors. Now everything is Happy Holidays, all because of what?because of new religions and the phrase “Merry Christmas” makes them uncomfortable.Well i think that all these people should go where their religion is supported. As for the schools, now you can’t even pray in school. It’s outrageous. I think that in school there is no problem what so ever to sing religion christmas songs after all christmas is a religious holiday right? Let’s see I think we celebrate CHRISTmas for our Christ’s birthday. So why not be able to sing praises in his name? Of course people have the option not to join and others will have the option to join. but why should others be punished because some other peole don’t like christmas or believe in jesus? I think that there is no reason we should not say “Merry Christmas”, have it posted on our websites or even in our grocery stores and i most certainly do not have anything against religious christmas songs being sung ANYWHERE.
Please cite examples of people saying this.
Even if they didn’t celebrate Christmas?
Because people celebrate different and multiple holidays?
Alll religions are equal in America.
Please provide evidence that you can’t pray in school.
For some it is; for others, it is not.
Do you celebrate MASS at ChristMAS?
In what ways have you been “punished”?
This isn’t just a religious problem. Its a musical one too. Children get musical education from singing songs regardless of the words. Most of the songs are traditional, therefore copyright free. It becomes complicated when you start using modern songs. It means, depriving children of religious songs in a sense is depriving children of music. Also, we should be proud of these songs. Little donkey has been passed down through generations. I’m not particularly religious, but I do see the importance of music especially in schools where music is dwindling. Singing songs is fun – and singing traditional songs is absent of any copyright headache.
When I hear bizarre rants like Shannon’s, it puts me off Christmas a bit, but overlooking that I see no problem with traditional Christmas songs in school, provided non-devotional songs are also part of the program. All the Christmas songs this time of year grate on my nerves, but there are some that I like, including devotional ones. I don’t like the idea of suppressing the expression of religion, but I also don’t like the idea one religion trying to control how everyone celebrates the holidays:no one owns December.
There shouldn’t be any trouble really. After all, we can still appreciate those carols as a shared cultural heritage. I see only two ways about this, either religious programmes within schools are all terminated, or every religious celebration is given some form of expression within school grounds.
And as an atheist, I have no problem uttering meaningless phrases (to me) that promotes goodwill, so Merry Christmas.
I have an issue with religious songs being played in schools. However, many Christmas songs (even out-of-copyright classics) are secular.
General rule: Talks about Santa? Use. Talks about baby Jebus? Do not want.
I have no problem even with a few explicitly Christian songs being sung (Silent Night, Little Drummer Boy, etc.) provided there are also secular songs, Chanukkah songs, Kwanzaa songs, etc. What other popular-ish holidays are being celebrated around now, anyway?
Being an atheist who tends to buy a new Christmas CD every year, I can’t see the problem with having school children sing a mix of secular and Christian carols, as long as the carols are traditional. There is a lovely, rich, heritage of Christmas music that children should be exposed to as part of their heritage.
Oh, and Shannon, if you truly believe that students don’t pray in school, offer to proctor an exam sometime.
“Happy Holidays” is used by businesses that cater to 100% of the population, not just the percentage that are Christian (15-80%, depending on where you live in North America, Europe, or Australasia). That’s the main reason why it has become ubiquitous.
People who complain about it should also complain that companies use both genders and people with different coloured skin in their advertising.
Very few people get upset at being told “Merry Christmas”. But quite a few do get tired of being told “put the Christ back in Christmas”. Put whatever you want in Christmas, but don’t tell others what they should do with their own holiday.
Shannon needs to look up the history of Christmas from some other vantage than a religious one. She will find that christians borrowed pagan ceremonial dates and customs to form their own religious traditions.
Students can pray all they want in school as long as the prayer is not school sponsored or initiated. This country does not have a national religion. My freedom to not believe and participate in religious celebrations is no less significant than Shannon’s freedom to do so. I wish christians would step back and put themselves in others’ shoes before they start ranting and raving.
I was an atheist child who celebrated Christmas. We had a mix of secular, Jewish and Christian songs (although not always Jewish I don’t think.) I liked the songs and they were are part of my traditional carols of the culture. I liked the songs, but I was aware that they were Christian and that it was assumed everyone was which irked me. There were two Jehova’s Witness children who opted out of singing, but played instruments, which their parents thought was fine. All in all, I’m not sure how I feel.
The pledge on the other hand… I remember even in the 1st grade I had a problem with that and just didn’t say God (but moved my lips).
My daughter is in the choir at her elementary school and several of the songs they will be singing have some religious connotations. I struggled with this at first until I heard the songs about Santa. I don’t see how some (Benjamin) think singing about Santa is ok, but baby Jesus is not. The concept of some fat man who supposedly loved me only if I was nice, rewarded me with presents for this supposed good behavior, cared enough to watch my every move but not enough to ever have one conversation with me. The whole “Santa” thing is just weird and in my opinion much more damaging to children than the religious lies about baby Jesus. I don’t want to take choir away from my daughter or risk harming her love and appreciation for music. I sat her down and explained how most songs are make believe. They express ideas and emotions but very rarely can they be taken as literal truths (we had a long discussion about the feasibility of someone being able to climb down a chimney). Although I have difficulty dealing with some of the view points and irrational ideas presented by my daughter’s teachers, I think in the end they will make her a well rounded adult. As long as I teach her to think for herself and not blindly follow then any illogical or untruthful statement is just an opportunity for her to hone her reasoning skills.
I homeschool my kids, so I am in control of what my children are exposed to. I never lied to them that there is a Santa Clause, but we have read stories and watched movies about Santa. They know and understand that these are fun, but fictional, stories. I let them listen to religious and secular Christmas songs, but they also know that they are not based on fact. We even used “Jingle Bell Rock” as a holiday music project. We don’t celebrate Christmas, but we enjoy the holiday season. Most of our projects and celebrations are geared toward winter, rather than holidays. The same holds true for other religious holidays. In fact, people sometimes think we are odd because we color and decorate eggs for fun, but not for Easter. I stock up on after-Easter discounted egg-coloring kits, and we might pull them out in mid-September.
I have three children in school and the grammar schools always had a “Holiday Concert” where they sang a variety of songs but seemed to steer clear of overtly christian ones. It seems to me that is a good solution and devout christians should realize that not everyone sees the “christ” in xmas and that they can sing religious songs at home or in church if that is important to them.