Rechelle is an ex-Christian who has posted such an apology:
1. I apologize to all the homosexuals. I am sorry that I believed in a religion that condemns you. I am sorry that for many years I thought that the bible was right in it's condemnation of homosexuality. I am sorry that when I no longer thought the bible was right about homosexuality being a sin, I did not raise a gigantic stink about it every Sunday right in the middle of the sermon... week after week after week... until the church issued a restraining order against me and I could no longer come within a hundred feet of the sanctuary.
I think that the second apology above may be more interesting and important than the second: Rechelle isn't just sorry for the homophobic beliefs she once held, but also for not speaking out once those beliefs were dropped. How many other Christians do you think are out there who have partially or entirely dropped various noxious beliefs promoted by their religious leaders but who won't publicly dissent? How long will some of these noxious doctrines of Christianity continue precisely because of Christians not speaking out, not organizing to make changes in their churches?
I think the second apology is more important because anyone can acquire irrational, false, or harmful beliefs from their surrounding culture and then retain them without any effort. You don't have to do anything wrong for this to occur. However, there is a greater moral problem with not speaking out against evil once you wake up and recognize it for what it is.
4. I apologize for giving money to the church. I apologize for helping to support and pay for a building that stands empty six days a week. I apologize for giving my hard earned cash to pay an enormous utility bill on a mostly empty church building. I wish I would have given all that money to alleviate real human suffering. To purify drinking water, to build a third world hospital, to educate a child living in a slum, to improve an orphanage, to further research on diseases, to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, heal the sick, reform the prisoners, but instead so much of my available funds have up until now, been sucked into a huge building that gets used once a week by wealthy over -fed Americans who get upset if the sanctuary is not adequately cooled in July.
Religious believers tend to treat churches as obvious and necessary charities -- vital components of the local community. But just how much money is needlessly wasted on churches for the reasons outlined above? Ironically, churches will only stand empty most of the week if and when believers choose not to go there except when there are expected to, on Sundays. The less connected they are to their church on a daily basis, the more wasteful their donations may become -- but, at the same time, the more they may cling to making those donations because there is so little other connection left to them.
For all these things I am truly sorry and I most humbly repent...
AND plan to make changes, repair damages and do the hokey pokey and turn myself around.
Apologies are not easy. The words may be relatively simply to say, but a genuine apology is based upon a genuine willingness to sacrifice in order to make things right. In order to apologize a person may have to give up something material in order to make reparations of some sort, but they definitely have to humble themselves socially in order to admit error and acknowledge that they have wronged another. Humility and sacrifice aren't usually easy even in the best of circumstances.
Beautiful. Rechelle’s complete article should be read by every Christian.
It is hard at first, but once you see that you are making a difference and realize the true difference between pride and humility the rest is a privledge and thus you give your life purpose and meaning.
When you make yourself responsible in having true compassion for the lives of others, you have justified your own. To save someone’s life is to give ones self life.
I too am regretful for the life I once led, but now thanks to humility I now have the wisdom to see both the ugliness and beauty that resides in truth.
Talk about being ashamed. I have sixty years worth of apologizing to do.
Rechelle’s blog is great. I emailed her an encouraging letter.
Rechelle’s blog was an eye-opener!
Like her and klyptomaniac, I have many, many years for which to apologize.
Indepth research has proved beyond all doubt that homosexuals are born as such, and I do NOT mean to imply any derogatory sense.
One’s sexual orientation comes with birth; we have no say about it.
Former homophobic beliefs aside, my biggest regret is that I was indoctrinated in religion as a child, though I blame no one for what was considered “the norm” in those days.
To make amends, I espouse atheism at every opportunity, perhaps to the dismay of many, but I do not apologize for it, just as theists neither apologize nor hesitate when raving about the “wonderful” attributes of their “loving god.”
Life is short, and obnoxiousness — never intended, of course — is a two-way street!
Rechelle, you really don’t need to apologise. The people that filled your mind as a youngster, while in no position to rationalise what they told you to believe, are the ones that should be apolgising. They get kids who are in no position to question who then go thru’ their lives really believing the cr*p they are taught, with it’s inherent bigotry and hate. We non-believers are really obligated to get the church out of schools, to work to get this kind of behaviour recognised as child abuse and to stop it. Legislation is the only way really.
Rechel: I am often perplexed at religious people who lose their faith so easily and not only lose it, but go on to deny altogether. So many times I have read of or known people like Jean-Paul Sartre whose atheism was preceded by anger at God. I have seen it so often that I am left to wonder if the atheist truly no longer believes in His existence, or is merely comforting himself in his anger at God by denying His existence. It is, after all, the ultimate slap in the face to a God who requires faith for salvation. It is like Nietsche who declared that if you could prove to him that God existed, he would all the more refuse to believe in God. These are not the words, in my estimation, of a man who could truly be called an atheist. After all, why would he refuse to believe in God if His existence were proved, but for his anger at Him? It seems to me that this is where you are.
If I may take a stab, your were once a committed Chistian until someone you loved, perhaps a dear friend or brother, came out to you as gay. When that happened, you accepted him, because you knew him to be honorable, loving, etc., but your fellow church goers, who were not as invested in your friend/brother, did not see it that way and attacked his lifestyle, which both hurt and angered you. Your anger became such that you projected the antipathy of your church onto God assuming that He felt the same way and you then concluded that He was not worthy of your worship, in fact, He must not exist at all! Am I near the mark?
It never ceases to amaze me how often people become atheists based on an emotional reaction to a group they find objectionable and then claim that their belief is the more rational one!
Well, I wish you well in your search and I hope you come to the realization that God is not who people make Him out to be. He is Love and Goodnes and Patience.
God bless! Bye now!
Dan W
And yet another Christian presumes to know what has gone on in the life and mind of a person they don’t know and have never met, instead of simply asking sincere questions in order to learn something new.
It never ceases to amaze me how often Chritians make wild, unfounded, and arrogant assumptions about people they don’t know in order to fit those people into nice, neat roles in their religious ideology. Then they claim that they “love” everyone and their religion is “rational.”
@Dan W
You wrote: “Well, I wish you well in your search and I hope you come to the realization that God is not who people make Him out to be. He is Love and Goodnes and Patience.”
So, god is not what people make him out to be…. but he *is* what *you* have made him out to be. I’m confused. Who gets to decide who god is?
btw – as an ex-Catholic who stopped believing, I can tell you that there was no “event” that made me “angry” at god. At some point, god as a concept didn’t make sense to me. It’s a long boring story I won’t recount here, but all that religious stuff floated away with ease.
@Dan W:
Let me elucidate a few things for your muddy reasoning. I, for one, came to atheism through many a long hour in communication with KNOWLEDGE! I have read on the philosophy, history and religious beliefs of many cultures and holy books, including the OT and NT. I took advantage of the wide range of AVAILABLE knowledge at my fingertips.
Do not assume that your FAITH in that which can’t be proven, makes it the TRUTH. You and your ilk are narrow viewed, closed minded and wantonly and deliberately ignorant. Something that is inexcusable in this day of instantly available, FACTUAL info.
So keep your fingers in your ears, singing “la,la,la” the rest of YOUR life. I much prefer making use of the simple act of learning and exploring the rest of MY life. I think most atheists share that view, as well.
You don’t need a tragedy or problem in life to recognize what is real and what is fantasy. You just need to be WILLING to explore what is AVAILABLE to you. Something you refuse to do because it might shake you up a bit.
I’d love to know how you can manage to reconcile your vicious, angry, murderous, psychotic, sadistic, jealous God with love and goodness and peace.
Dan W:
You are yet again one more believer who assumes all atheists are angry at something or someone or even at god. How can I be angry at god if I don’t believe god exists? That’s like being angry at Tinkerbelle.
A friend once described his deconversion as a slow evolutionary process. At first he believed without doubt, then he believed with doubt, then he didn’t believe but had some doubt and finally realized he was an atheist. He told me this took about twenty years.
For me, I started to doubt at age 12 and knew I was an atheist by the time I left high school, even before I knew there was a such a thing as an atheist. (I grew up in a very sheltered religious home in the 1940s & 50s.) But, it was a rather slow process that happened over a number of years. I had no great tragedy in my life. My parents were good people. They didn’t abuse me, nor were they overly strict. All my friends and relatives were believers. I tried to believe as they did . But I just couldn’t accept that what they told me about religion was true.
You might get some insight about why people are atheists by reading “Atheists, A Groundbreaking Study of America’s Nonbelievers” (by Bruce Hunsberger and Bob Altemeyer, 2006) a study of atheists in America. The authors cover, extensively, what they refer to as “Amazing Atheists” those who despite religious indoctrination in highly religious homes become atheists (as opposed to those who grew up in non-religious or wishy-washy religious homes.) The number one reason those atheists gave for turning from religion was reading/studying the Bible. That was true for me. I read the Bible and I used my reasoning skills to decide it couldn’t possibly be true.
In my last remark I forgot I wanted to ask Dan W this:
If I were to make the assumption that you, a theist, must be a believer because of some tragedy in your life that you didn’t have the maturity, knowledge or fortitude to handle, so you turned to an imaginary friend to delude yourself to get you through the rough time —would you take offense at that? Of course you would.
Or if I wrote: Let me guess that someone in your family, your mother or sister had a horrible disease, so you turned to god. Your family member died, but members of the congregation comforted you and that felt good, so you decided to become a _____ (supply your own religion or sect.) Am I right?
Nonsense!
Well, when you make assumptions about atheists, you are doing the same thing. I would never make those kinds of assumptions about you, because I don’t know you. I know hundreds of religious people and not one of them has the same background. Most were indoctrinated into religion as children. Many find religion is a comforting habit. Some are afraid not to believe. Several found god later in life, some because they felt a need for something more, some because they were looking for something outside of themselves they couldn’t find within, some because of a life tragedy or addiction, some due to a life-altering event, some because they believe everything in the Bible. Some don’t have a real clue what their own religion stands for and some have studied religion and philosophy for years. Some simply enjoy the activities of their local congregations. But there are a hundred other reasons why people I know stayed with or turned to religion and I would not presume to guess your story.
I also know hundreds of atheists and no two have the same story. Before you make such statements, please ask yourself how you feel when people make assumptions about you.
Hey! Rechelle here. C. told me about this article and subsequent discussion. I can really relate to the story of the 20 year de-conversion. Losing my faith was an extremely slow process for me, but once I admitted my disbelief out loud (in my former pastor’s office no less) – it completely disappeared.
I have been fortunate to have several close gay friends throughout my life – some while I was a very devout christian. I was constantly in agony over what the bible said about them and what I felt about them as people. When I finally decided that the bible had to be wrong about it’s claims that homosexuality was a sin, I did not drop the rest of my faith as a result. I simply adjusted it to suit my needs. I adjusted my faith to suit my needs on many, many things. Every christian on the planet does the exact same thing. They all make up their own faith and they create their our own god. Ahem – that would be why it isn’t real.
Well, I would be remissed if I did not come to the defense of Dan. I am not going to jump in and say that everything He said was right, or even that His tone was correct… Although there was definitely some truth in what He said. What is so remarkable to me is that venom in which many of you respond back to him in. Many of you have an obvious detest for Christianity or all things Christian but a seeminly earnest yearning for humanitarianism. You are willing to cut down a Christian for condeming homosexuality or for believing in God, but you readily cut down that same Christian for his beliefs. Hmm… Seems a little hypocritical too me. Or does the title of Christianity now mean unhuman? I do not begin to understand where Rechelle (sorry if I spelled your name wrong) is coming from and I am not about to try to give words to her feelings or thoughts… Dan has been chastised for “assuming” to know but so many of you “assume” to know about him. It still seems a little hypocritical, maybe even a little contradictory. If indeed the athiests have the truth and if indeed they have the better way, then why do the athiests sound like the Christians they mock and debate and ridicule and tear down. It almost looks like the two of you are the same thing (not speaking specifically about Dan or Rechelle or anyone athiest – just a generality). I will say that very much like the young woman that responded to Dan and listed her dense track of study, I too have studied – I too know the Bible — I too know history and how this affected that and so on and so on ad infinitum. But my conclusion doesn’t lead me to tear down an Athiest nor does it lead me to tear down a Christian, nor does it lead me to tear down a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Universalist, or a believer in the divinity of Cabbage Patch Kids. Religion, be it Athiesm or Christianity or Islam, is still religion – and it is man made. And the last time I checked it was mankind that killed and maimed and destroyed in the name of so many things – Science, God, nations, lands, revenge, love, lust… You name it! Many claiming God’s will when it was there own! Many screaming that it is our right, when it is selfishness! Many pleading for justice, when all they want is the freedom to be chaotic. Where is the order and where is the love? It is not found in the reason or will of mankind. It is not found in Athiesm because your tone against Dan proves that you are the same as the evil you accuse Him of. Nope. Neither one of you have convinced me either way. One says that there is no God while verbally attacking another human being, the other says that there is a God while flippantly saying how athiests think or what they are like… Hmmm. You all make it hard to see truth – you all make it hard to see love. It’s sad because you are one in the same (not specifically you Dan or you Rechelle or anyone person in particularly, again, just a generality). But there is Truth and it is not found in religion. It is found in a relationship – a true relationship with God. Are we so blind (human beings – all of us Christians and Athiests alike) to think that we (mankind) is the be all of this existence? That the few years that we have to walk this earth and breath is it? That somehow in all our glory – stealing, raping, killing, destroying that as a human race we are it? That the answer lies inside of us? Seriously? That’s not common sense! Every single one of us struggle with ethics – the right and wrong of living. And finally when we cannot fathom that right or wrong we wipe it out as there not being a right or a wrong because it is the way I feel and the way I was born. That’s called tolerance and acceptance. Can we not make the argument that some people are born serial killers! Then are they wrong? It can’t be wrong because they are born that way! Can’t we make the argument that some people are born rapists and thieves and treacherous vagabonds?! Then are they wrong? According to mankind’s thinking – no! They were born that way, it is what they feel and what they know, they can’t help it. This is mankind’s thinking. Okay, just because you are of an elite mind and feel as though this does not apply to you, you must be “elite” enough to know that John Donne once wrote that “No man is an island unto himself” and that the very point that you argue about togetherness links you to the very rapist or murderer that you might say is an anomaly or abnormal or a degenerate. Yes, we are all in the same situation because we are all connected and we are all born with something that just is not right and we are all damned because of it! And the fact that the Athiest say that there’s no God means then that there is nothing to rescue me from this plight, this endless darkness that is in me and on the horizon. And then there are the Christians who make out God to be like genie, granting wishes, and a fortune teller or puppet master, knowing it all as if planned out and puppeteering mankind through a maze or some kind of game… The two have similarities. But I thank my God in Jesus Christ that I am not a part of Athiesm of this world’s version of Christianity. My life is not found in a religion of disbelief of another person’s religion or in the religion of a man made God. Yes, there is a God who is real and raw, who does love and does allow mankind to make their choices. Isn’t that what Athiest’s want? Freedom? Well, God’s given to you. Isn’t that what Christians want? Freedom? Well, God’s given it to you. He has let all you religious thinkers and philosophers of the day have your time to figure out and enjoy life the way you want it. He lets you ridicule one another and debate one another knowing that you have at best 60-70 years of life to waste. Because death will come and knowledge will cease and then what is there? Who will be around when mankind finally destroys himself (because we are near destruction internally already)? I am sorry that I have been so long winded on this comment, I really didn’t mean for it to be so long, but I couldn’t help myself. I had to start from the beginning to get to this very point here. God is real. Jesus Christ is real. The version of Him that you think you know, you don’t. There is a Great Romance that exists between God and mankind. It shows itself in the lower levels of our functioning. Our need and desire for companionship. Our protective nature of our children. Our jealousy of what we possess. Our anger when what we love or possess is threatened. Or do we all think that these things just came to be without any order? That they were random? Yet, we do not live in a random world. No, there are seasons, there is time, and the Earth even sits on an axis and makes a complete revolution around the sun and we call that a year. That’s order and yet we believer our existence could be random? God forbit the lunacy in that thinking. Mankind cannot save themselves from themselves – and it is obvious that we need saving. Look at the world! And that is why Jesus makes sense. Think about it. There is knowlege and imagination and they go together. At some point, something had to come from nothing. And that is where we find God. And if something came from nothing, then whatever made that nothing into something can make something when and whereever He wants it to be. Even in the womb of a woman. God does not need to be proven. Proof is what we need from each other. He is above our standards and He loves us so much that He lets us be Athiests and so-called Christians! He gives us that freedom. The choice to love Him as He loves us. How do we know He loves us? How can we say for certain that God loves us? Because you have life and the opportunity to know eternal life – if you so choose to respond to Him and believe. God does not want to be proven. He wants to be believed in. As I end this I want both parties, Athiests and so called Christians to take note at the words that I have written. I have not thrown a bunch of scriptures at you. I have not assumed to know your thinking only to use it to further my point and knock down yours. What I have written and what you have read is words from a True Believer in God and in Jesus Christ. Words that explain, logically at times, the need for belief; words that are full of reason and faith. Athiesm, Islam, Christianity, etc… Are religions. Christianity is supposed to be more than a religion, but because of mankind and its religiousity, it has failed in so many ways. But that doens’t mean that the God that it talks about has failed. Let’s have some accountability as human beings and own up to the mess that we have created adn stop passing the buck off on God and then trying to erase our own mistakes by erasing the existence of God. He will exist and does exist without one person’s belief. He is God and He does not need us to make Him who He is.
For example?
For example?
Do support that accusation.
Do note that “atheist” isn’t a proper noun and shouldn’t be capitalized like that.
For example?
For example?
Which means you are unable to provide either.
…because there is no such thing.
Prove it.
Prove it.
I’m not going to struggle through trying to read the rest of your comment. If you want to be read and taken seriously, please learn how to format your text and write a bit more coherently.
@Brian Hawkins:
Obviously from your lengthy screed, you think that Christianity, through Jesus, of course, is the one true religion. You have the single-mindedness of all who refuse to recognize reality, because it’s too real.
You have ignored historical facts, scientific data, anything that conflicts with your belief. You cannot recognize the true origins of your beliefs, because to you they don’t exist. It doesn’t agree with the bible, ergo, it can’t be so.
Your bible is rife with contradictions, ignorance of basic science, unethical behavior, violence. Yet, you accept it as the true history of mankind and the world, even though today’s knowledge eschews it. The same type of egregious behavior your god has indulged in by would be unconscionable if committed by a human being..
You make excuses for the sadistic, often psychotic whims of your God as his right because God can do as he pleases. Yet you Schizophrenically insist he is loving and kind and forgiving.
You believe in a myth that had its origins way before the bible even existed. You don’t understand the atheist impatience with people who are willfully ignorant and refuse to explore outside their narrow purview. Have you even considered how other religions view Christianity? Probably much the same way Christianity views them. We (fill in your religion here) are right and everyone else is wrong. We have the inside track to the deity, the others are not true believers. “No true Scotsman”, etc.
You have been bamboozled to accept blindly and unquestioningly, what would pass for a mediocre mythology by anyone who studied literature.
The bible isn’t even well written. With the history of how it was compiled, to begin with, how accurate is the translation? Can one even be sure that the words were even translated properly and not made up to suit the religious hierarchy? Do we really know how accurate the translation from the original scribes was? Historically, we know it is just a compilation of borrowed mythology. We can trace most of it back to ancient times, way before anyone plagiarized the myths that we know today as the bible.
Your God is real to YOU because you want him to be real. that’s your prerogative. Atheists say there is no God, that is their prerogative, as well. This, after all, is an atheist site. Your proselytizing, only reminds us of how fortunate we are to be able to use our innate discernment.
The venom you spew against gays and pro-choice. The misogyny inherent in your view of women and females in general. These among other things, that true humanistic attitudes would decry, is why I do not see your viewpoint as the way, nor can I ever. I know I’m not alone in my opinion, but will let others speak for themselves.
(14) Brian Hawkins?…
Austin, The Sojourner, in particular, have already, quite admirably, IMO, refuted much of what I find absolutely ridiculous in your “No True Scotsman”…or is it more like…
“My partially Biblical…but in reality…absolutely TRUE Christianity appearing right out of thin air; and directly into my ‘oh-so-privileged brain’ style, ultra-knowing, belief rant.
Or…
“Fie on all those other false, man-made religions; and a special “Fie” on you evil, dastardly atheists!”
That aside…
Pardon a little boomerang style ad hominem (quasi-instant Karma?)..?
Besides totally disagreeing with your rather lame attempt, IMO, at defending Dan W.
I think you’d better forget that old, often bogus, English spelling rule…
I’m referring to:
“i before e, except after c”…
It doesn’t work with MANY words like:
theist, atheist, theism, atheism, their, reign, reins (as in horse’s), feign, veins…
even “Heil!” (Ya Vol!) …etcetera, etcetera.
I’ll give you credit for knowing a bit of Latin, though:
“ad infinitum”.
I’ve noticed, for quite a long time, that Christians in particular, have totally poor spelling habits when it comes to any Cosmologically oriented terminology. It MIGHT just be related to their lack of paying attention to details; and also, quite possibly, to a simultaneous…and noticeable to most atheists…a rather serious lack of Rational, critical thinking skills.
[I'm guessing, of course; but could it also be the result of WAY too much home schooling of, and by, many of today's more self-righteous, fundamentalist type believers?]
My immediate suggestion would be to switch to Mozilla’s Firefox; which has an available spell check feature (a plug-in?).
Which, unfortunately, doesn’t help ANY of us with our individual, inimitable, totally self-styled…erm…
“lame-a-tude”.(?)
@ ChuckA
You are absolutely correct… I should have spell checked and/or read over it before I posted it, but it was late and I just wrote. If I post something again (after this) I will make sure that everything is perfect so that my responses, at least the syntax, will be credible to other readers since my beliefs are ridiculous and a product of my lack of truly seeing reality. Thanks for acknowledging my knowing of a little Latin.
@Austin Cline
Exammple of truth in what Dan said:
“So many times I have read of or known people like Jean-Paul Sartre whose atheism was preceded by anger at God.”
Example of venom:
“You and your ilk are narrow viewed, closed minded and wantonly and deliberately ignorant. Something that is inexcusable in this day of instantly available, FACTUAL info.”
“So keep your fingers in your ears, singing “la,la,la” the rest of YOUR life.”
Example of Assuming:
“Let me elucidate a few things for your muddy reasoning. I, for one, came to atheism through many a long hour in communication with KNOWLEDGE! I have read on the philosophy, history and religious beliefs of many cultures and holy books, including the OT and NT. I took advantage of the wide range of AVAILABLE knowledge at my fingertips.”
Let me pause here to say that it is unfair to say that because Dan has not come to your conclusion that what he finds to be truth and knowledge is lesser than yours. That’s not a fair assumption.
Example of not being a proper noun:
Sorry about that. I have learned something new.
Examples for “And the last time I checked it was mankind that killed and maimed and destroyed in the name of so many things – Science, God, nations, lands, revenge, love, lust… You name it! Many claiming God’s will when it was there own! Many screaming that it is our right, when it is selfishness! Many pleading for justice, when all they want is the freedom to be chaotic. Where is the order and where is the love?”
Mankind is consumed with this problem. It is at the root of a lot of what we say and do. We want to conquer – not just “things” but minds. You and I both fit into this perfectly. Is this not what your blog is about? Affecting people’s minds? Is that not what my response has been about? It is in our nature as humans to believe something, and thus we share it with either the candid or hidden truth that we want people to believe what we do.
Example for the proving of Truth in relationship over religion:
All human beings desire a relationship. We can’t explain it, but we want someone or something to accompany us in this life. Some find it in people, some find it work, some find it in objects or actions. Although we are individuals, we all long for something else. Therefore, religion cannot “save” or “fill” human beings because it is a practice. Relationship is a sharing. Again, this pertains to you and I because here we are now – sharing our beliefs. Having said that, I understand the difficulty one might have with believing in an invisible God. After all our world is just the opposite. But I think that our world exists one way, the tangible and visible, that there must be another. Thus, a God. A beginning. Something that is more than what we are because as a whole mankind sucks. You have to agree… Well, you don’t have to, but I think that the logic is fairly rational. We all desire a relationship with someone or something that will complete or fill what we know is missing – whether we acknowledge it or not. That “thing” opposite us is what we want to connect to, but we find easier substitutes – other people, books, sports, knowledge, drugs, sex, religion, etc. We do this because these things are tangible and easier to get a hold of.
Finally, please excuse the format in which I wrote in before. I agree, it was written poorly. There was a lot that I wanted to say, it was late, and so I just wrote. I will attempt to improve from here on. I will finish by saying that I am a Christian (duh, right?), but I am not for “tearing” anyone down that does not share in what I believe in. I will not tear down an atheist, nor any other person from a different belief system. I do want to share what I believe just as you do, recognizing that this is an atheist site. I find what many of you write to be challenging and I respect the fact that most atheists are more knowledgeable about Christianity than many Christians. Having said that, I would prefer not to be “tore down” about my views. Challenge me, and in turn I will challenge you (or attempt to). I will avoid “tearing” down and making “assumptions.” Likewise, I would appreciate it if we all do the same. Again, I recognize that this is not my site, and I do not have a right to tell anyone what to say or how to say it. I am just requesting.
Austin, I must ask you this: You have asked me to prove some of things that I wrote so in turn I was wondering if you could logically and rationally (outside of the fact that your belief is not believing in God) disprove the existence of a God? I understand and see your quips with Christianity (is it just Christianity or does it extend to Islam and Buddhists, and other religions) and religion, but outside of religion is there a possibility for you that there is something greater than mankind?
@ Rechelle
What you said:
“I simply adjusted it to suit my needs. I adjusted my faith to suit my needs on many, many things. Every christian on the planet does the exact same thing. They all make up their own faith and they create their our own god. Ahem – that would be why it isn’t real.”
I am sorry to inform you of this Rechelle, but you are incorrect. Not every Christian on the planet does this. I DO NOT! I stand in subjection to God (even though you no longer believe Him please here me out) for everything that I do. I do not twist my faith to meet anything. That wouldn’t be faith at all. Instead, I take myself for who and what I am, not relegating the God that I do believe in to meet my standards or what I want Him to be. Faith is not based on rules or obligations or whims or wants. Unfortunately, many Christians have indoctrinated this kind of “idea” of faith and it has become how God is represented. That is a faux reality of God (again, I speak as a believer and understand that many on this site do not share in what I consider to be a reality, nonetheless that is still a matter of opinion and belief and consequently faith) and thus it is easy to find this kind of God to be unworthy of even acknowledging His existence and that is because he is then truly a god that we have created. This kind of god is not true or real (again, I understand that most people on this site would say that I am wrong and dismiss the truth about God as false, but that is a matter again of opinion and belief and faith – the last of which is non-existent to many so it will not be comprehended, very much like how God is not comprehended because to them He is non-existent – that doesn’t make it untrue or not a reality).
I do empathize with your qualm. It is hard to reconile what we see and feel and want to see and feel with what Christians say about it, and what we think God says about it. I am able to say that I do not twist or adjust my faith to suit my needs or wants because I understand that God is not like me – I am not a god or the highest level of intelligence. What is interesting and what is an injustice in most Christian circles is how homosexuality is cut off from fornication or sexual immoralities – or at least that is what is taught in most Christian basis. But that is not the truth. 2 Corinthians 6: 9-10 says, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.”
The truth is that homosexuals are lumped together with a lot of other people as well. See, many people DO ADJUST THERE FAITH to fit their whims, but that’s people. That is not a reflection of God – that is not God. The danger in all of this is that when we do this, then the god that we are following is us – what we deem is right and wrong – and I will assume that you do believe in a concept of right and wrong as that is ethics. We all are right sometimes and we are all wrong sometimes, yet we still want God to be like us and when he is not morally gray, as our world is, then we question His existence (I am speaking broadly and by no means am I saying that this pertains to any one person or group in particular). Nevertheless, God does not care about being proven or tested – because that’s what human beings need and want and desire – He is not like mankind; God wants to be believed in, something that we do not really hold in high regard because mankind demands proof.
God and His invisible qualities has been made himself. Read Romans 1 and then examine creation more closely. I can not guarantee or prove anything to you, but if you seek you will find, and it is not deception – it’s truth and will remain truth with or without your belief or my belief. God’s existence and Truth is not dependent upon us (mankind) but unfortunately we think it is. Contrary to popular belief, the onus of proof is not on believers – because God cannot be proven. It’s a matter of belief, either you do or you don’t. It calls for a healthy examination of yourself – the whole you – but our greatest adversary is ourselves – always has been. Don’t believe me? Look at the news.
No excuses for a god. the only god that exists is a wicked one who they say can see all so is therefore watching as little children are abused and does nothing. You cannot say there is a definitely a god because he is supposed to be invisible, it takes an intelligent, rational person to understand that they do not need a god to be good, they just are.
What you said:
“it takes an intelligent, rational person to understand that they do not need a god to be good, they just are.”
I do not want to assume that by the above statement that you are saying (through comparison) that people who believe in God are not intelligent or rational… That would be inaccurate, unfair, and stereotypical – none of which would be good and could therefore qualifying you for the category of not being good. And you are without a god (I will assume) so that doesn’t bode well for your last point that a person does not need a god to be good, they just are.
What you said:
“No excuses for a god. the only god that exists is a wicked one who they say can see all so is therefore watching as little children are abused and does nothing.”
Based on the above statement, I am confused as to whether you are without a God, or just indifferent towards Him. It reads as if you are rejecting Him and/or denying Him rather than saying that He does not exist. Which one is it for you?
As far God watching as little children are abused and Him doing nothing… Well, it really makes your argument flimsy at best. Because if there is no God, then the onus of protection is on mankind. This would lead me to see that we have no hope because the same rational and intelligent person that does not need a god to be good is not doing enough to stop the bad. I could then conclude that we would be the equivalent to this god that you say does nothing – because we are doing nothing as well! Hopeless, really, if that is the case. But if I were to take the other side of the argument and entertain you believing that there is a God, but that you have decided to reject Him or deny Him based on Him not stopping the bad things from happening, I would then wonder about all the times that abuse was stopped and children were spared or saved from the horror of abuse?… When this happens is it men or God? If you say men, then I am really confused because an intelligent and rational man can still do bad – obvious by the need of a good man to fix or rescue or save… What would be the difference then since both men – the good and the bad – can be intelligent and rational? It would then seem to me that intelligence and rational are subjective and really hold no concrete value in whether or not a person is good or bad, leading me to wonder what does then? Your logic here is flawed a little. Help me to understand you better.
@Brian Hawkins
“Austin, I must ask you this: You have asked me to prove some of things that I wrote so in turn I was wondering if you could logically and rationally (outside of the fact that your belief is not believing in God) disprove the existence of a God?”
I really don’t think it’s quite possible to disprove God more that it is possible to disprove my 100ft tall floating foot invisble dinosaur. Beleifs don’t require evidence.
“but outside of religion is there a possibility for you that there is something greater than mankind?”
Depends on how youmake it and who you ask and how they feel. For instance I believe I’m a spirtual person. And despite my beliefs on how it would be problematic for an after life to exist ,seeing my life as a pre-cursor and all , I believe that even if there is no afterlife and people are either buried underground. I believe that the essence of a person, their mind and personality(spirit) fade away.They are carried on and kept alive by the memoires of those closes to you. This is just my beleif as an apatheist.Others might feel differently.
@Brian Hawkins
(forgive w/e typos you find if you’re reading this)
“but that you have decided to reject Him or deny Him based on Him not stopping the bad things from happening, I would then wonder about all the times that abuse was stopped and children were spared or saved from the horror of abuse?… When this happens is it men or God? If you say men, then I am really confused because an intelligent and rational man can still do bad – obvious by the need of a good man to fix or rescue or save… ”
In the sense we put faith in humanity(Austin can probably descrbie it better)but not in being transcnedent or worshipping or anything like that. I guess i would say we believe that we can evolve and grow together without primitve thinking while we propser. (@austin sorry these are just assumptions at best maybe you can inform him). Some people are misotheist,others apatheist, others just atheist.
As for blaming evil on mankind. Evil can’t exist without good (yin-yang). We are mortals and i accept my mortality. As mortls, though we aren’t perfect I really don’t see how god is perfect and how people hold schizophrenic beleifs to believing God is perfect because he’s the alpha and the omega. If let someone die and it’s my duty to protect them than(say I’m an police officer) I’m either neglectful. irresponsible, or bit bad. But the confusion vaires. God either lets bad things happen or causes them. And I get tired of it when people cherry pick the circumstances like a confused abused spouse , on how it’s not god’s fault in this case but their fault ,(earthquake in haiti and chiles) but it’s Gods doing in another (Sarah Palin is not president.) I leave the rest of this argument by reciting this famous qoute. Because it says it all.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
-Epicurus
And last I agree with Rechelle. I would like to apologize also not only for being a bigot for believing homosexuality is a sin or some type of error,. When you’re believe someone is going to receive eternal damnation and it’s “just” or justified for simply something they have no control of, because it’s how they are, the essense of their being and concious mind, it shows how spiritually and emotionally weak you and other people are when it comes to showing compassion to your own species and the deity who enforces this system who you believe created everybody knowing someone is going to discover their homosexuality, shows he is just a sick omnipotent and omniscient maniacal megalomaniac getting his kicks for fun.
So if any Christian ,theist or gay person here is reading this…I apologize also for partaking in my past bigoted sick beleifs.Please forgive me, I wish I apologize sooner.
And I also feel sympathy for any gay Christian out there, for the beleifs people people enforce on you…strugglng to believe that ” being who they are” is wrong and sinful,:being torn apart and choosing between ridicoulous beleifs and your true selves must be hell.
I am grateful for atheism for releasing me of my irrational homophobia.
~Thank “God” for atheism.
I’m thinking of ‘becoming’ a christian.
Homosexuality is one of the issues talked about in the church discussions, that I participate in. Lots of interesting discussions…
Bottom line: There are many churches, some with wrong teachings. Rechelle seems to have gone to one of these wrong churches. This is especially evident when she expelled from a church! – a place where it should be welcoming to anyone.
Homosexuals, are to be loved for, like any other. But the idea of homosexuality is wrong – male-male couples… isn’t natural. But-sekz isn’t pro-creative, isn’t human nature – is only pleasurable for them, but no good for the human species. “God” (i’m in doubt if there’s such thing…), via the bible, teaches the ‘right’ things. Homosexuality – wrong. But comdemnation of homosexuals is wrong too. You show love.
For me, that’s what the church is about. The church I go to, is about love, friendliness, happiness, openness… It gives me a whole new perspective on life, and challenges my beliefs (e.g. “Is there really a god…”). Bottom line: It’s a positive change, setting out to bring a positive change for me and my surroundings.
Think about this: The church i go to teaches its members to love ‘everyone’, via Jesus’ (or God.. etc.). How do you love ‘via Jesus’? Not sure… But, if Christians are to love everyone, including non christians and homosexuals, what a different world we would live in.
By what standard do you differentiate between those with the “wrong” teachings and those with the “right” teachings? How do you know it is the correct standard?
an answer for C Wood,
the simple reality is that the Abrahamic traditions are based on make believe!
this is something that everyone seems to ignore, the Romans had a belief that believing real hard had the ability to make what is believed to become real, this is also the basis of judaism, you can ask any Jew and they will tell you that believing that adam and eve were truly the first humans makes it so, they will tell you that if no one believed it then it wouldn’t be true!
every one needs to learn the concepts of the ancient jews and the ancient romans towards faith to fully understand what thesae religions truly stand for!
tye basis of the abrahamic traditions is that pretending that pretending is something more than pretending, and this is why these religions have been a waste of time since they were invented!
Read up on the christian ideal of a perfect world as they berlieved in the dark ages, that they could get rid of all the predator animals and then all other animals would suddenly become domesticated, and the roman ideal that by putting up fences all across the world would make it so the world was captured and the world would be broken like a horse and follow the commands of MAN, these are the concepts that are the basis of the Abrahamic traditions, find these words written and then rub them on the chests of any chrisyian and watch their reaction, it is best to do this in person so you can watch their eyes and see what is happening in their heads, you will watch them realize their faith is nonsense just before they dive back into the land of make believe, just understand that you can’t break them of their habit to pretend with this, they are addicted to pretending and truly believe they may die for their found knowledge!
you can’t make some one give up thier desire to be retarded as they believe this is the golden key that will let them enter their heaven, it really is that simple folks, and thats because believers are very simple folks, inteligence is NOT their friend!
I found your “Apology” most inspiring. I will send to to some friends and urge them to share it too. Thank you.
Austin Cline is genius. That argument applies to every aspect of this whole discussion. If there is right and wrong, then there is a standard by which to judge what is right and what is wrong. If there is a standard than the whole atheistic relativism is debunked. Also, if there is an objective standard, than that fact assumes the existence of something that exists that transcends all matter and all time. While I cannot prove to you the characteristics or personality of this thing, based on pure logic, it must exist.
Based on logic, it need not exist.
Here is a summary why no biblical (any bible) can have morality at all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA
Morality (right & wrong) cannot be absolute. It can not be one way forever. What we know as morality today is different than morality 2000 years ago. It is different because of trial and error & rational conversation. Morality evolves over time.
2000 years ago slavery was accepted, woman different have equality, etc etc.
You can cherry pick what you like from the bible and call it morality, while ignoring things that we’ve later decided aren’t acceptable…and then interpret those older, biblical moralities to explain away their actual…out of date – meaning.
It’s foolish to think god’s real,nonetheless a particular god
You need verifiable,testable,repeatable evidence-observed by everyone,any time. Haley’s comet comes every 75 years,but is observed, tested & measured
Each Religion claims to be the one true religion.
Religions(christianity included) plagiarize from prior religions. Older religions are Myths. Today’s religions are future myths
Why people believe:
1 part of a community- songs,activities,family, holidays- cult-like behavior
2 fear of death-their own death & the death of loved ones
3 the unknown-any book(including science) claiming to have all the answers is something you can identify as bs. We know more than we knew 1000 years ago & less than we’ll know 1000 years from now. People are uncomfortable with the answer “I don’t know” so they accept any answer,even wrong answers
4 experienced coincidental, imaginary, unusual things They even create coincidence OMG- I was on a train yesterday & today a boy jumped from a train & lived,it’s a sign! No-When someone miraculously lives,plenty don’t
5 stupidity/gullible-They believe whatever is their culture-church,friends,family. They never think
6.They like religion. Even with “doubt”(which means they don’t believe)they still try
7 weakness. Problems with addiction-they need therapy. Displacing pain with worship can help(often not for long). People can benefit from various rehabs
“Read the bible”I’ve read what you call”the bible”- old & new testament. For everyone that is turned on by reading the bible, more would say “no way” after they’ve read the bible. People get turned on to christianity without reading the bible -go to church & listen to interpretation or friends & family’s ideas in bible groups