Christianity: How You Treat People Doesn't Matter

i posted a lil something.

This aspect of Catholicism always bothered me: that you could do horrible acts, ask god for forgiveness (even on your deathbed) and be forgiven and allowed into heaven. Likewise, someone can lead a good life, but make one teensy little mistake – because they didn’t ask god for forgiveness: eternal damnation!

Now, Redeemed Hippie brings up a similar aspect that bothers me: that your acts don’t mean as much as accepting god (and Christ?) into your life. Why would anyone want to be with a god like this? Personally, I find it repulsive: as repulsive as those gods that demand human or animal sacrifices to be appeased.

So, let me get this straight, god endowed me with reason and intellect to ponder the world. Thanks to this reason and intellect, I become an atheist. I still do good works – money to charity, helping people in their lives – but this same god who created me with this intellect will send me to eternal damnation?

The other portion that bothers me: what about people who, through no fault of their own, never hear about the Xian god or his crucified and resurrected son? They endure the flames of eternal hell?

Personally, as someone who was brainwashed in Catholicism…actually from birth…but ‘in formal fashion’ starting in Kindergarten (in 1944) and straight through grammar school, with the habit wearing nuns, High School with habit wearing Christian Brothers, and College (with a mixed bag of Priests and mostly lay professors. The point being, relevant to what Liz was saying, the horrible notions of Eternal Damnation, mortal and venial ’sins’, etc. were implanted right from the ‘get-go’. Of course, I think it’s important to remember that the ONLY doctrine about ETERNAL, ENDLESS, Hellfire damnation was originally instigated by the Christian, so-called Gospel writers; and was picked up, much later, in the, even MORE sadistic, Islamic baloney. It’s not in the Old Testament. The Jews, from my fairly ‘intimate’ knowledge, absolutely do NOT believe that sadistic fear and guilt laden crap.
As Hitchens points out; it was…according to “Saint” Paul etc… Jesus, “Meek and Mild”, who supposedly introduced that bit of monstrously evil, childhood, and entire lifetime, mental abuse.

I’ve noticed that most atheists who make comments here or, for that matter, elsewhere, seem to be much more familiar with the Western, in particular, Abrahamic mythologies regarding any “afterlife” notions. Personally, having delved into various Eastern Cosmologies, in particular Hindu, Buddhist, and some of the so-called “Westernized” “New Age-ish” versions; existence is more about a rather undefined, even evolutionary, continuum. At present, of course, there’s absolutely no hard evidence or definitive proof for any of them. Only, perhaps, for anyone who’s explored…some curiously interesting, obviously subjective, “anecdotal” accounts.
[There's quite a lot of that, I'd say...good, bad, and indifferent... on YouTube, etc. What's that?...
"Yeah...mostly nonsense!"?]

My real point of mentioning all this is that the overwhelming attention, here, and on other atheist venues…for understandably obvious reasons, of course…has been the constant, predominant debate in focused reaction to the much more common, often angry, extremely dogmatic, anti-atheist Christians. If we were living in India, for example, it would be, I’m guessing, a whole other…”kettle of fish”…?
[More angry Muslims attacking us, perhaps?]

One more personal point; for me…the various existential notions of deity, personal or otherwise (ala Pantheism or Deism?), and any possible afterlife scenarios, are two distinctly SEPARATE issues. In other words, a totally godless afterlife…along the lines of some form of “Consciousness Evolution”…with NO ridiculous endless, totally tyrannical “Heaven” or “Hell”…ala, perhaps, certain forms of Buddhism(?), is a distinct POSSIBILITY, if indeed, as I hold…a highly skeptical ladened consideration.
What!…the usual shtick about “When we die…yada, yada?”
On that note…as has been debated here many times…I’m well aware of the ongoing, perennial, Brain/Consciousness related arguments.
No matter what…I’m definitely an atheist. I have no belief in ANY gods. I might add, though; PARTICULARLY the outrageously nasty, and demonstrably sadistic, Abrahamic notion. And of course, to borrow from Dawkins and Hitchens:
“Religion…(particularly the Fundamentalist variety) poisons…(literally)…EVERYTHING!”

Hi,
arguing from an objective position. Yes what you say at the end is true. But how good were they? On what level? By what (calibrated or not) standard? First, you would have to make “up” a standard. Then, we would have to consider it. Lastly we would have to compare it with an objective standard – God’s standard – objective good.

How many good works does it take to make you “good”? How many bad things does it take to make one “bad”?

Can a murderer say to the judge “this was just ONE teeny mistake. I’m a philanthropist, I donate my money to the poor…”?

It seems that our goodness to us is laced with every bit of human rationale. To us these guys may be nominated for humanitarian awards. But to God, who IS objectively good (Matthew 5:44-49), these guys aren’t (just enough). The Bible says, that God DOES NOT give to us what we deserve. Objectively. And if we were to say oh how can someone do all these bad works and go to Heaven, we put ourselves in the place of God, as a judge. What happens if that was you? God is good but he is also just, He “may be” smarter at accepting a person who has hypocritically lived his life into heaven than you think. Read Ezekiel 33:10-20.

I think if you put it in another perspective, “Hippie” wasn’t trying to say that James, Catherine and Christopher weren’t good, he was trying to say that they weren’t good enough. Just a thought, using the said people as examples of good atheists surely doesn’t speak much about :atheism:. One must ask: surely the purveyors of atheism Hitchens and Dawkins are knowledgeable but are they good people?

RE Jie Xuan: If video game RPG’s has taught me anything, you can slaughter a village, sell people into slavery, and side with an ancillary villain or two, but you’re still the “good guy” for battling against the main antagonist so long as you choose to destroy their evil source of power at the end instead of claiming it for your own. All you need to do is keep your morality meter above 50% people will sing your praise!

In all seriousness, there is no objective standard of morality. Morals are entirely a social construct. One that changes from generation to generation. Case in point: read the freaking Old Testament! It’s abhorrent in how it expects people to live. If anyone lived that way to the letter they’d be locked away and maybe even executed if they lived in, ironically, the states in the US that most loudly profess their “Christian values”.

To answer your question; are Hitchens and Dawkins good people? I’ve never met them, so I wouldn’t be able to tell you. What does it mater? They may not be as socially conscious as Bono but from what’s public they seem to be no worse than any other person you might meet.

Of course, to you, I’m sure that’s irrelevant. The only thing that’s important is if they throw themselves down at the feet of Odin and his only begotten son Thor. Wait, is that how it goes? No, that’s right, I’m forgetting the mortal mother. It’s Zeus and his half god son Hercules, right? But that doesn’t fit the death/rebirth theme. Ooh, it’s Adonis! It’s gotta be. Shucks, with all these gods, it’s hard to keep track.

But how good were they?

How good do they need to be? According to the Christian claims above, how good they were is irrelevant. Ergo, the question is irrelevant.

Lastly we would have to compare it with an objective standard – God’s standard – objective good.

This assumes that there is a god, that it has relevant standards, and that we must use them. None of these assumptions have been justified.

I think if you put it in another perspective, “Hippie” wasn’t trying to say that James, Catherine and Christopher weren’t good, he was trying to say that they weren’t good enough.

What Hippie was saying was quite clear: it doesn’t matter how you treat people because how you treat people is irrelevant.

Jie Xuan:
So how can we aspire to heaven? Are you saying that since we need to meet god’s standard, we can never know if we are good enough? How can we try for something without knowing what the qualifications are? How are you sure you are doing the right thing? Maybe we actually have it right that god wants us to question all this religion and he’s grinning right now at those of us who disagree with you. How would you know?

Anyway, as someone raised in an Xian faith and who has heard things from various Xians as well as studied texts from different times and different scholars, what admits one to heaven changes from person to person, place to place, time to time.

Some Xians say: yes, you need good acts as well as belief in god. Other Xians say: belief is enough! Other Xians say: you can commit murder, rape, robbery and ask god’s forgiveness. then you gain access. Other Xians say: acts don’t matter; you need god’s grace.

Some Xians say that we know what god wants because it’s in the bible. Others say, there’s no way to know what god wants because god’s ways are mysterious.

There are protestants who argue about whether a baptism with a few drops of water is enough or if you really need to be submersed. The amount of water is a determining factor.

>Lastly we would have to compare it with an objective standard – God’s standard – objective good.

Matthew 5:44-47 (The verse xuan supplied)
44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

How is “no standard whatsoever” an “objective standard”–or any standard? If I claim the courts are objective, because they often indiscriminately send obviously guilty people home and innocent people to death, I’m actually not describing objective judgment. I’m describing an utter lack of judgment. This Bible verse doesn’t demonstrate the claim that god has an objective standard, it supports he has no standard. What “standard” am I using to indiscriminately fling pooh at anyone/everyone on Monday, and then the next day hand out cake the same way? That’s a “standard”?

>Can a murderer say to the judge “this was just ONE teeny mistake. I’m a philanthropist, I donate my money to the poor…”?

According to you, sure. And the judge, if he’s a good, objective judge might agree on Monday and give him a medal, but argue that point on Friday and execute him.

>It seems that our goodness to us is laced with every bit of human rationale.

And I’m very glad of the fact I’m a social animal with the capacity (and, more importantly the desire) to discriminate between beneficial vs. harmful actions. If god is not capable of that much—and exists—the “judgment” should work the other way. We ought to be judging the being with no discrimination, since the being without discrimination cannot judge anyone/anything.

>And if we were to say oh how can someone do all these bad works and go to Heaven, we put ourselves in the place of God, as a judge.

Read that Bible quote: “He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

That’s not “judgment”—it’s an utter lack of judgment.

Ther Babylonian skygod is nothing more than a fearsome trademark.

Adam and Eve were punished not for eating a piece of fruit, but for disobeying a god. Lot’s wife was punished not for looking back, but for disobeying a god. This is a common theme throughout the christian bible: disobey the god and pay the consequences.

It should be clear to anyone who examines the issue critically that christianity is not about morality, but about being obedient to a capricious god.

If a god can do anything it wants and be considered good, no matter how much harm it does, simply because it’s a god, “morality” has no meaning.

Theology, morals, scriptures, etc. are all irrelevant to religion. The “flocks” are deluded. Religion is nothing more than a scam to benefit priests and other power-seeking freeloaders.

The slaves need to believe their master isn’t human, this way they don’t have to admit what form of coward they are, to themselves or their children.
this is what they consider morality!!

I was a born-again Christian in the 70’s. I was taught that your works mean nothing. The only thing that was important was faith. As long as you accept Jesus as your savior, you would go to heaven.

The most distasteful Christian phrase of those years that continues to annoy me is: ‘I am not perfect, I am forgiven.’ or maybe it was ‘I am not perfect, just forgiven.’ It is just an open excuse to be as non-Christian as you choose and you will still go to heaven because Jesus is your savior. During my time as a Christian and since then, I have met so many Sunday Christians that act like assholes the other 6 days.

I have no desire to be in heaven with a bunch of hypocrites. If they all go to heaven, I will be happy to be in hell with all my fellow athiests.

“Adam and Eve were punished not for eating a piece of fruit, but for disobeying a god.”

I don’t think there’s ever been any argument about that aspect!
However, I’d like to pose this analogy.
Supposing you were studying for an important exam; let’s say biology. You spend sleepless nights studying well into the early morning to make sure you’re well prepared.
Then comes the exam!
You open your papers and find out that the exam is on European history, a subject about which you know nothing.
That’s how I see the test held by the god in the Garden of Eden.
Allegedly, Adam and Eve were told not to eat a certain fruit. To do so was disobedience, but as they had no prior knowledge of obedience or disobedience, the exam or test was meaningless!
In fact, if this god was supposedly omniscient, he knew the outcome of his test before it was held, so what was his point?
His devilish act was both capricious and malicious and, one could say, it was nothing less than an evil act of temptation!
Then to follow it up with a decree that ALL humans born henceforth were to die because our unwitting pair failed the test was about as cruel as anyone could be.
Silly fairy tale, really, when you think about it; just one of the many childish “dramas” in the Bible.
No matter how good this god tries to present himself, he has a strange knack of spoiling his image by following it up with some kind of sadistic behavior.
As George Carlin would say, “But he loves you!”

Well put Nick.

So, let me get this straight, because a talking snake said not to eat a piece of magical fruit, and because a “person” did, I’m a sinner for the rest of my life?

Makes perfect sense to me.

Aren’t the rest of you missing something, or is it me?

I was in Iraq 1980-82 when Saddam was the dictator. From the time I landed in Baghdad airport, his life size photos were everywhere, in the bus, taxi, hotel lobby, even your hotel room.On the radio or TV, non stop songs were sung on his praise. If you were an outsider, you thought that he was revered by people like God.
People woeship God and sing his praises for the same reason, FEAR.

Sounds like everybody is amphed on Red Bull.
Or your trying to get your moneys worth from your college courses..
You sound silly.
You have a choice to side with God or Satan. The Angels of heaven were allowed the same choice.
If you are good vote for goodness.
If you are bad vote for badness.
If you are undecided vote for communism (slaughtered 50 million over the last 2 decades.)

You have a choice to side with God or Satan.

Or to side with Odin or Loki. Or to side with Zeus or Hades.

Every mythological system has sides to choose from. Some of us, though, grow up and stop believing in those myths. When we grow up, we recognize that the only side to choose is the side of humanity.