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Austin Cline
Austin's Atheism Blog

By Austin Cline, About.com Guide to Atheism

Criticism of Religion: Just like Dominion Theology, Oppressive Dictatorship

Friday October 16, 2009
Atheists are by no means perfect, but more and more the criticisms I see of atheists and atheists are founded at the most outlandish, most wild, most nonsensical charges imaginable. This can't be because legitimate concerns can't be found, but what possible motivation could these critics have? Can they just not identify any legitimate criticisms, or do they perhaps not find the legitimate criticisms "sexy" enough?

As they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease and I suppose that people who make more outlandish and ridiculous claims get more attention. That's the only sane explanation I can think of for people who make charges against atheism and atheists which have absolutely no connection whatsoever to reality, common sense, or even common decency.

Case in point is Chainsaw Buffet -- I don't know which member is behind the Twitter account, but they sincerely believe that atheists who criticize religion for the purpose of changing people's minds is the same thing as attempts by Dominion Theology to create an oppressive, theocratic dictatorship.

Chainsaw Buffet: Richard Dawkins is just like Pat Robertson, except for his viewpoint. Hate-filled fundamentalist who thinks he has the only "truth" ...And Dawkins, among others, spews nothing *but* hate for religion and anyone who disagrees with his "truth".

Chainsaw Buffet: You obviously haven't read what he writes. Give me a moment to dig up some prime examples.

These are pretty serious and strong accusations. It would be bad enough to accuse someone of spewing any hate for others, but Chainsaw Buffet goes several steps further by asserting that Richard Dawkins spews nothing but hate -- and not just for religion, but for anyone who disagrees with him. I wouldn't accept that as true about even Pat Robertson and it's obviously false about Richard Dawkins.

What's significant here, though, is the fact that despite repeated requests, Chainsaw Buffet never bothered to even try to support the accusations. He promised he would, but never bothered. Yet, he insisted that he has never made any "dogmatic, arrogant claims" that he can't support. I've never seen anyone in so much denial about themselves, but then again I've never seen anyone make claims so contrary to reality either.

Chainsaw Buffet: Consider this: There are a not-inconsiderable number of atheists who make it their mission to actively tear down religion... this is, in its way, exactly the same thing as Dominionists who want to establish a theocracy. Neither side has proof of its... ...beliefs, and yet forces those beliefs on others.

Chainsaw Buffet: It's an arrogant claim to know an unprovable "truth" and an attempt to force that belief on others. We're not talking about... simply criticizing a religions excesses or breaks with reality. We're talking changing people's faith itself, which is what... too many people on the atheist end of things. It's the same kind of scariness as fundamentalists. ...it is the same thing. The only difference is the belief (or lack thereof, which is itself a belief of sorts).

So, trying to convince people to leave behind religion in favor of something else are just like violent theocrats who wish to establish a repressive religious dictatorship over the entire nation? That makes no sense. It's bad enough how often people try to draw false equivalencies between violent religious thugs and "mean" critics of religion, but this actually manages to go a couple of steps farther than most.

Trying to convince someone to leave behind a religious belief system isn't really any different than trying to convince them to leave behind some political or economic system -- something which happens all the time in our marketplace of ideas. People argue about a variety subjects all the time, always with at least the implicit intention of trying to change minds.

Funny how nobody objects to any this and never complains except when it comes to religion -- usually their own religion, but sometimes just religion generally. Conservatives who try to change liberals' minds aren't equated with Dominionists. Liberals who try to change conservatives' minds aren't equated with Dominionists. Muslims who try to convert Christians (peacefully, with arguments) aren't equated with Dominionists.

Why are atheists singled out for this special honor? Why are atheists described as trying to "force" anything on anyone simply for expressing their beliefs and critiquing other beliefs? Maybe it feels like force -- but only if the critiques are perceived as more legitimate than believers want to acknowledge. What I mean is, maybe it feels like "force" when a person feels compelled to change their mind by a strong critique backed by strong evidence, but are upset at finding themselves being drawn by evidence and reason away from comforting beliefs.

It may be, then, that this extremist reaction is simply an indication that atheists are more right than Chainsaw Buffet will admit. Instead of addressing those critiques directly, then, it's easier to just attack the messengers.

Chainsaw Buffet: What about when those arguments lead to nuts shooting people? Or to riots? Granted, that sort of thing comes from the right... more than the left, but I can easily see too many people doing that over religious/political arguments.

Maybe there was some important news that I missed, but I haven't heard about any atheist arguments leading to nuts shooting people. That sort of thing comes from the right -- and usually those who profess religion, like the preachers praying for God to smite others -- because they are the only ones who are engaging in that level of eliminationist, hate-mongering rhetoric.

Atheists' critiques of religion, no matter how mean or unjustified some may be, don't come anywhere close. Part of this is because those critiques just aren't as vicious as so much political rhetoric, no matter what apologists like to complain. Part of it is also the relative lack of power among atheists -- even if they did engage in violent rhetoric, they're in no position to do anything about it.

Chainsaw Buffet: As long as anyone claims to have a monopoly on a "truth" that is unfalsifiable, that's fundamentalist. ...We're talking fundamentalism in the sense of the actual way the word is used, not the outdated dictionary definition. ...Dictionary definitions always lag behind the real-world use of terms. And "fundamentalism" is used to mean "dogmatic" - suits.

Chainsaw Buffet: If it's an idea in which neither side can prove or disprove their core beliefs (the existence of God), the idea does [deserve automatic respect].

Chainsaw Buffet: ...the concept of "God" can neither be proven nor disproven. It's impossible to draw any conclusion, period. ...It is just as ludicrous to make the claim that God doesn't exist as it is to make the claim a God(s) exist.

So saying that a god exists or doesn't exist is ludicrous, and since that's a truth-claim that is unfalsifiable it's "fundamentalist," but it still deserves automatic respect. Ummm... huh? If it's "respect" to call a belief "ridiculous" and "fundamentalist," then how are atheists doing anything wrong? Setting aside the complete incoherence of Chainsaw Buffet, this suggests once again different standards for atheists than for everyone else. Atheists are in the wrong no matter what they say while others can say whatever they want about anything else while still being decent people.

And how, exactly, is this not anti-atheist bigotry? You can write to them to let them know what you think, either via Twitter or on their web site.

Comments
October 16, 2009 at 12:27 pm
(1) Jeremiah O'Connor says:

One of the fundamental problems in the conflict between atheism and deism is that the search for truth is lost in the quest to advance ones own position. Both sides routinely ask questions of an individual of the other camp that has neither the philosophical or theological background to address the questions asked. This does not make thier position more powerful, but instead establishes them as a bully. The most coherent collection of beliefs I have yet found is that within the Catholic Church. Pope Bennedict, Jeff Cavins, Peter Kreeft and others seem like more formidable thinkers. Many make the mistake of dissmissing Catholic teaching due to the sex abuse scandal. Should an organizations ideas be discounted because of conduct of individuals inside the organization that are inconsistent with its ideas? Think of the worst behavior of some of the members of organizations that you are part of. Check these encyclicals out if you are ready for a challenge
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben16/index.htm

October 16, 2009 at 1:55 pm
(2) Eric (4tunate1) says:

@ Jeremiah O’Connor

First of all Deism and theism are not the same thing. Second, if a person does not have “the philosophical or theological background to address the questions asked” then how do they have the “the philosophical or theological background” to take a position on the subject (or at least a strong enough position to not question their certainty)? Third I think it is ridiculous to say that “many make the mistake of dismissing Catholic teaching due to the sex abuse scandal.” Many dismiss Catholic teaching because it is contrary to reason, logic, humanitarian principles, scientific evidence, and honest discourse. The sex abuse scandals cause people to distrust the character and motives of the Catholic hierarchy NOT the content of their dogma.

October 17, 2009 at 8:57 am
(3) Atheist_Pilgrim says:

@ Eric (4tunate1)

An excellent response to yet another deluded Roman Catholic believer, Eric.

October 17, 2009 at 1:35 pm
(4) Dav Y. says:

@ chainsaw
on your comment:
Chainsaw Buffet: It’s an arrogant claim to know an unprovable “truth” and an attempt to force that belief on others. We’re not talking about… simply criticizing a religions excesses or breaks with reality. We’re talking changing people’s faith itself, which is what… too many people on the atheist end of things. It’s the same kind of scariness as fundamentalists. …it is the same thing. The only difference is the belief (or lack thereof, which is itself a belief of sorts).
the idea is get rid of FAITH and BELIEF, not change it, these are the way of ignorance and the slave.

and on this comment:
Chainsaw Buffet: As long as anyone claims to have a monopoly on a “truth” that is unfalsifiable, that’s fundamentalist. …We’re talking fundamentalism in the sense of the actual way the word is used, not the outdated dictionary definition. …Dictionary definitions always lag behind the real-world use of terms. And “fundamentalism” is used to mean “dogmatic” – suits.
FUNDAMENTALISM is the belief that religious documents are based on history and reality, thats all the TERM means!!
and my favorite
Chainsaw Buffet: …the concept of “God” can neither be proven nor disproven. It’s impossible to draw any conclusion, period. …It is just as ludicrous to make the claim that God doesn’t exist as it is to make the claim a God(s) exist.

a CONCEPT is just that, a concept, no reality involved, as in disproving and proving the existence of GOD, if you can,t prove the concept, then the concept is false, that is how a concept is disproved, theists don’t like this process because it doesn’t allow for the circular logic that is used to prove faith has a value, and there lies the problem of the THEIST, TRUTH and REALITY!

October 25, 2009 at 10:40 pm
(5) Frank says:

It is a good thing that religous people are really taking notice of the ” new atheists ” like Richard Dawkins. As I understand from Austin, the ideas are affecting their beliefs, penetrating their minds and instilling doubt. A reaction to fright maybe because they are feeling the FORCE OF TRUTH.
It is nice to remember, Nobody kicks a dead dog.

October 30, 2009 at 11:35 pm
(6) Eric says:

The concept of comparing atheists to christian fundamentalists by saying both claim to have a monopoly on the truth is truly disingenuous. Christians claim to have the truth but provide no logical evidence. Atheists tell you to examine the evidence using logic and rationality, and the truth they claim to know is verifiable. You aren’t forced to believe them. U are encouraged to look at the evidence using logic and reason. Richard Dawkins is just confident you will come to the same CONCLUSION as him if you do this. Why would he believe any iother way. Maybe this is just my inexperience but i have yet to hear a logical, reasonable, and accurate argument for the extraordinary claim of the existence of God.

November 6, 2009 at 7:33 pm
(7) Tom Edgar says:

Jeremiah O’Connor.

Your reference to the Catholic Church not being responsible for the deviance from the true path by a small minority is rather specious. You ignore totally that to the highest possible level, Pope included, that these deviants were collectively, and individually, protected by the authorities, whilst their victims were denigrated for millenia.

November 7, 2009 at 10:35 pm
(8) Zayla says:

I have read, and written, and even had a piece published in FFRF about the Catholic pedophile ring. I am very, very well versed on the subject.

Virtually every argument I’ve ever had with a Catholic apologist is how the “feel”, or what they “think”. It is never based on books, facts, websites, authors, VERIFIABLE information or statistics.

Anyone who wants to bring it on, do so, but don’t just bring your rhetoric, bring facts, real facts, not just the ones you make up, or the ones that are fictitious and can’t be verified by legitimate sources.

The Catholic church has perpetrated the greatest horror on children/society in history and to this day they hide it, pursue legislation to protect themselves and the punishments that have been doled out are a joke compared to what society does to normal child rapists.

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