Examples of bigotry, hatred, and discrimination aren't difficult to find, but homophobic bigotry like that expressed by so many Christians today is interesting in one respect: because so many gays are still closeted or even in denial, Christians don't always realize when their hatred is being directed at people close to them. We thus have examples of Christians who would presumably insist that they "love" certain people in their lives all the while expressing the most horrible, hateful statements about who those people really are.
I worked, briefly, for a woman who was a born-again Christian and thought all homosexuals should be killed. Her teenaged son often stopped into the office (right next door to the owners' home) and I am 99% positive he was gay. I never told her that, because, of course, she would have denied it. Like the president of Iran who believes there are no gays in his country, she was convinced there could never be a gay in her family. Ten years later, I wonder if she would advocate killing her own son.
She made her little anti-gay speech one day. The next day her husband referred to a client as "a dirty, little, atheist." The next day I submitted my resignation. I don't know what I would have done if I couldn't afford to leave that position and have to continue to work with such intolerant people. I imagine hundreds of thousands of employees are in that situation all the time.
[original post]
Not only do such Christians not know about the existence of gays and atheists around them, but I suspect that they don't really care — after all, if all gays and atheist are necessarily evil, there's no reason to refrain from saying the worst things about them. Right? Why be concerned with the feelings — or even civil rights — of evil people who should really just be executed?
When Christians talk about "love," it's often a sort of "love" we'd all be much better off without I think.
One of the things that I find most disturbing about religion is the way certain words become code for something that is really the exact opposite of the concept the word is supposed to express.
The way that, as above, christian “love” is really just having a clear idea of who you’re supposed to hate, and then being able to be as dehumanising and vile as you want to them because they’re not really people.
Or the idea that their god’s love is “unconditional” (terms and conditions apply: conditional on you picking the right god and worshiping it in the right way, believing all the right things, hating the right people, etc.)
Or the idea that a religion represents “absolute morality”, but they’re happy to worship a god who commits all sorts of atrocities that they wouldn’t let any human get away with, which is the very definition of moral relativism.
This is why a simple statement like “innocent people shouldn’t be killed under any circumstances” can become very sinister. After all, what it means depends on what you mean by “innocent” and “people”.
I loved Ted Haggard and I miss him, and the $$$.
Yours Always,
Leather Pants
To jesus saves:
If your God is going to send people to Hell for not believing he exists, then it doesn’t sound very much like unconditional love.
@jesus saves:
I read every word and it still doesn’t make any sense. A “loving” God would never put his children in eternal suffering for any reason. He’s God, he can make the choice. We’d put any human father in jail for life if he tortured his children for what he considered an infraction. Why is it permissible for a god to do so? Because he CAN?
Your god is a pathetic,psychopathic sadist, not a loving deity at all. He is a loser not a lover. He is also non-existent. With all that blood, by the way, it sounds like a vampire story.
Learn punctuation and capitalization while you’re at it. I’d venture a guess you’re home schooled on top of everything else. Apostrophes and capital letters don’t bite, unlike vampires.
Comment 3 & 5 by Jesus Saves
That’s exactly the kin of warped thinking I was talking about. God’s love is “unconditional”, but terms and conditions apply and he may condemn you to eternal torment anyway.
Unless you accept that you are born corrupted and worthless, and worships God via Jesus in the exactly correct blood-obsessed away then God will have no choice but to lovingly send you lovingly to Hell where you will be lovingly tortured forever. God’s love is unconditional, because from a Christian perspective he “loves” you whether or not he sends you to hell.
That is a perversion of the notion of love, just like so many other good concepts are perverted by religious ideas of what they REALLY mean.
I agree with Sojourner: Your god is a pathetic,psychopathic sadist, not a loving deity at all. The fact that you call it a loving deity shows just how much religious indoctrination can twist a mind.
Persecuted? PERSECUTED?
Being disagreed with on the internet (with unanswerable arguments, I might add. Otherwise why didn’t you address them?) is being PERSECUTED?
Why don’t you go to a crowded public square in Saudi Arabia and loudly proclaim the truth of Christianity, or even of Shi’a Islam? Do you think that the worst that will happen to you is that you’ll receive some disparaging (and, again, apparently unanswerable) comments about how your religion is anti-human, anti-life and nauseatingly blood-obsessed?
When you hear about people “fleeing religious persecution”, do you think “gosh darn it, those atheists with their strongly-worded comments on the internet! When will they leave my people alone!”?
Do you think it means they have left their country because to many nasty atheists said mean things to them on the internet? That’s why people are granted asylum? You clearly have no idea what persecution is, to bandy the concept around so freely, over something so harmless.
If the regular commenters on this site firebomb your place of worship or your house, put laws in place that don’t allow you to hold certain jobs, use public services or vote, or KILL YOU, then maybe you’re being persecuted. But you’re far more likely to receive that treatment from other believers. We didn’t blow up the Bamiyan Buddhas, did we? We weren’t calling for Abdul Rahman’s execution, were we?
If Christian faith is so weak and pathetic that believers squeak and squeal with cries of “persecution! They’re persecuting me!” when they’re met with nothing more than some some strong (and accurate) criticism of their ideas, then that is an even better warning against Christianity than the hideous God character we’ve been discussing previously.
Now I’m just arguing with myself. You’re wrong, Mark! No, YOU’RE wrong, Mark! Shut up! No you shut up! WHY DON’T YOU BOTH SHUT UP!
In the same sense that the sane will never understand the insane.
And that’s all that matters isn’t it? It doesn’t matter if no one buys the insanity, so long as someone ran in, screamed it and then ran away they did their part.
Obviously people understood what he was saying since they addressed his points. The reason to bring up Jesus Saves’ punctuation is because it acts as a reflector of his thought process as well as the level of importance he places on his own expressed opinion.
If you think that criticizing someone’s beliefs consitutes persecution then I doubt you have ever been persecuted. In fact I’d say it even shows you have no idea what persecution really is. You could have tried to make a case that the assessments made of Jesus Saves’ posts were unjustified or untrue. Instead you made a feeble claim to persecution. Why should we think you or your beleifs are anything other than sad, petty, incoherent, and groundless?
Hey Mark, you ever get the feeling that you are talking to thin air?
@Red:
To which god? What if he’s the wrong one? Then you’re in real trouble, aren’t you?
red: “i am praying for you all”
[As if I (We) expect that you'll read any of this!]
IMO, your lower case personal pronoun indicates…”Fundie Sheeple”…VERY low self esteem (i.e…you’re not worthy!); and similar to what Sojourner said; if there is NO god, you’re praying to…what!…
the wind? “Mariah”?
Also…prayer absolutely DOESN’T work! Any reputable studies done regarding the notion of prayer indicate that, aside from a possible “placebo” effect, there’s no practical effect on actually curing any disease, etc.
IF prayer actually does work, the easiest way to prove that would be to have a “National”, or even “World Day of Prayer”…”in Jesus Name”, of course…for the total disappearance of ONE major disease…
make it…Cancer; all forms of it…everywhere on the Planet. POOF! it disappears; without any relation to Science and medicine. MAGIC-LIKE!
After all, wasn’t one of Jesus’ proclamations:
“WHATSOEVER ye shall ask of the Father, in My Name, it shall be given unto you!”
For more about the falsehood of prayer, See “Try Praying” at: godisimaginary.com
Mark Barratt (7) & Al Jeremy (9)?…
I think we all sometimes get the feeling of “talking to (and breathing?) thin air”.
And speaking of that (OK…writing)…
AUSTIN?
“Yoo-hoo!”
(Are you there? “Hellooooo, Austin!”)
[Sorry!...just kidding!]
JUST A SUGGESTION…as is the case here of some removed comments, in this case, by “jesus saves”; in order to alert subsequent readers to what happened…and, perhaps, to ,pardon the expression…”redeem”…the critical counter arguments and comments by our wonderful and “faithful” fellow atheist critics; perhaps inject a brief comment explaining the general reason for the ejection (metaphorical kick in the pants?) of the oh-so-brazen intruder (Moronic Religious Terrorist?).
It could be a nice pre-programmed cut & paste style thingy.
Pardon my ad hominems?…or don’t…
see if I care!
And, seriously…”thanks for your support”…
Say what?
Al Jeremy (comment
wrote:
That is EXACTLY it. Once viewed in these terms the actions of the godbots that infest this site (and many others) make total sense.
They SAY they’re trying to save our souls, they SAY they’re praying for us, hoping that we see the light, but in reality they don’t give a flying fudge about our souls. They are concerned about THEIR souls, and the best way they know to make sure their souls will be fine is to make a show of trying to convince us. They don’t care about whether or not we’re convinced, only that THEY fought the good fight.
That’s why they never attempt to actually make any convincing arguments, and they never respond directly to any challenges or objections that are put to them. They DON’T CARE if we’re saved or not. They don’t care if they manage to convince us or not. As long as they make a show of caring, THEY are saved which is all that really matters to them.
They don’t object to threats of eternal torture because they don’t care if anyone is actually tortured forever, as long as THEY’RE not.
This is the morality of the religious. This is the “absolute morality” that we atheists can’t access because of our nonbelief. As far as I’m concerned they can keep it.
Erm, I meant Comment 8.
“first off WE dont save your souls, God does.”
Rubbish. First prove the existence of souls, then prove to us how God goes about “saving” them.
“And second, fighting the “good fight” and witnessing doesnt save our souls, that is a personal decision between us individually and God.”
Evidence?
“i would not waste my time on this ridiculous blog.”
If you really think you’re wasting your time proselytising on this blog, you could always go and do something productive instead. I couldn’t care less.
“Your comment does not hold water.”
Oh, the irony…
Eternal life is a gift to the forgiven. Eternal punishment only means it cannot be reversed. The second death, is just that. Death of the soul.
“If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.”
1 John 4:20
Please, don’t make up your mind about God based on what you’ve seen from people who claim to be born again. You would have a hard time finding God in most “christian” churches. If he really is who He claims to be, He deserves nothing less than our devotion and adoration. In the end he will destroy all evil, “and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Revelation 22:4
God has let terrible things happen here on Earth while He waits for a few people to find Him, but one day He’ll put and end to suffering. I believe in a God who loves beyond my comprehension. I hope and pray that you all will ignore what you’ve seen in people who claim to know Him and give Him a fair trial. Let His word speak for itself before you make your final judgment. May He bless you all.
Comment 14 by red
And yet you’re still incapable of even attempting to make even one convincing argument for the truth of your religious dogmas of choice. All you’re doing is making a content-free show of vaguely promoting your imaginary friend, just so you can say you did. You’re just confirming everything I said.
If your only mode of argument is to ASSUME that the beliefs of your religious sect of choice are all true, and then to tell us about the consequences of those beliefs being true (and it certainly looks like it is), you are DEFINITELY wasting your time.
Comment 17 by Janine
“Soul”? What is this “soul” of which you speak? What reason can you give that we should consider this anything more than fantasy talk about magic fairy worlds, and magic brain ghosts?
I’ll see you your John and raise you a
Christ:
Hmm, how… inconsistent. It’s certainly a good thing that nobody’s looking to this book for coherent moral guidance, isn’t it? Oh, hang on…
Yeah! They’re not TRUE Scotsmen, I mean Christians…
And if a frog had wings… Anyway, that claim is debatable, at least. If the Christian god did exist my reaction, at least, wouldn’t be to get down on my knees and start pleasing Jesus. He’d need to explain himself, and preferably offer humanity an apology.
I’d certainly want to know why the deity who was creative enought to invent the awesome splendor of the universe couldn’t come up with a better method than blood sacrifice of himself to himself to save humanity from himself.
Yes, I’m sure you do. You’re not very good at offering anyone else reasons to believe in it, though, are you?
^ My personal thanks Mark (17) for that response to Janine; as well as your many other responses…and for that ‘revealing’ link.
) weapons, to save the World from all those absolutely dire Abrahamic-based Armageddon insanities.
It’s really quite a challenge to keep up with these fly-by religious trolls…and such a time waster, as well. I read that early this morning (I’m an old extreme “night owl”) but had no extra energy for it.
“Should we admire Jesus?” Of course not!
That truly excellent page points up exactly how little the “True Believers” know about their ‘precious’ Bible. They don’t get it that many, if not all, of us atheists are EX-believers, and actually became atheists precisely BECAUSE of reading the ridiculous and inane stuff in the the Bible, etc.
With more and more evidence that Jesus is a totally fabricated, mythological character [see Acharya S, (D.M. Murdock) for example)...like so many products of mankind's self destructive, wishful religious thinking...it's WAY past the time for people to totally get off ALL the religious, outdated paradigms (or as Joseph Campbell called them..."software"); if indeed it's not too late already, considering Nuclear (or Nucular?
A visit to "Fundies say the darndest things" [www.fstdt.com/] or a (hopefully brief?) stop at the totally insane…”Rapture Ready” [www.raptureready.com/]…might scare the pants off anyone with a, still surviving, and intact…rational brain!
OK…now that your pants are off, folks…I ask you…
can our friend “Joseph”(?) be far behind; for yet another (possibly much needed)…wanking session?
With the possible (but unlikely) moaning:
“PLEEZE, Give us SOME relief, Lawd!”
I can only speak for myself here, but that isn’t why I do not believe in the existance a god. How believers in god acted is one of the things that started my questioning of the existance of a god, but that isn’t what lead me to my current conclusion. Ulitmately it was lack of evidence in support of a god’s existance that did that.
I would marvel at the disconnect between what they claim to believe and how they act required for them to do this but that has long ceased to amaze me. However, I am still amazed at the swarming pool of competing and conflicting beliefs that must be the personalities of so many believers. If belief informs action, then how many unstated, overriding and, perhaps, unacknowledged beliefs must be present in the believer for them to act so brashly against their avowed belief?
Amen to that!
It is the oldest con job ever. Scare em and then protect em. Paranoia followed by megalomania.
Yes, the bigotry delineated in Austin’s essay is but another reminder that a large segment of society still regards gay men and women (among various minorities) as second-class citizens – or worse. That is the salient point of my recently released biographical novel, Broken Saint. It is based on my forty-year friendship with a gay man, and chronicles his internal and external struggles as he battles for acceptance (of himself and by others, including fellow Mormons). More information on the book is available at http://www.eloquentbooks.com/BrokenSaint.html.
Mark Zamen, author