A lot of religious theists don't like being asked directly for evidence to support their claims about gods, angels, miracles, etc. This is curious because in ordinary circumstances, being able to support one's claims is quite basic. Why get defensive about it? One possible reason is that defensiveness is not so much about being asked for evidence, but rather a defending against the doubt which such a request creates. If religious theists were confident, though, a little doubt shouldn't be such a problem, should it?
Theists: Step back and try very hard to be objective. If I ask you why you don't believe there are fairies in my garden, should I be insulted or think you insane or immoral because you want me to show you evidence that there really are fairies in my garden? If you make a claim for a god and a god creating the world, the responsibility for providing believable evidence for that is yours. What evidence do you have for that claim? Feelings have no place in providing empirical evidence.
Deep down, you know that and must admit that. So, when we ask for evidence, we cause you to actually doubt because you know you have none. Then you react in a nasty emotional way to us as though we have wronged you in some way. You are projecting the responsibility for your doubt onto us and that is unfair and inappropriate. You, and only you, have ultimate control over what you believe. If you find you do not have credible, tangible reasons for your beliefs, then you should be honest enough with yourself to face that issue and do some serious study. If the results of that study change your beliefs, own it honestly. Don't be afraid.
Think for a minute. Christianity has all the answers for the problems only it has created. Fear and guilt are terrible reasons for follow any belief system. Fear of death is a big reason for that belief system with many. But I just have a hard time thinking that belief in a god and an afterlife really take the fear out of dying. It's an unknown and we are often taught to be afraid of the unknown. There's no reason for that when you really think about it.
My past Christianity was never reinforced by a comfort in my "belief", but was maintained out of my instilled guilt and fear of what would happen if I didn't believe. When I realized I really didn't believe, it was an incredible freeing experience. I realized that without Christianity, I had nothing to fear. I am now free to enjoy this life for exactly what it is.
I highly recommend this to everyone!
[original post]
What sorts of reactions do you encounter when you ask Christians to provide evidence supporting their claims? How do you deal with these reactions yourself? Obviously not every Christian gets defensive when asked for evidence and not every Christian is suddenly confronted with possible doubts simply because they are asked for evidence. It does, however, seem relatively common. What differentiates those Christians who do get defensive from those who don't?
That they cannot produce good evidence for their position goes to t very heart of t matter. For t non-naturalist their position is backed up by faith. Faith is t peermision that they give one another to believe things w insuficient evidence.
They, in fact give themselves extra credit just for beleiving things on less evidence. T smaller t evidence t greater t faith.
Truly, as a Roman Catholic Christian, I don’t think (others would be a better judge than myself) that I get defensive if someone asks me to prove the validity of Christianity.
To me, being a Christian and loving my neighbor as myself means asking, “If I didn’t know Jesus and if I were not part of His Body the Church, how would I want my Christian neighbor to love me?” Well, to my way of thinking, I’d want my neighbor to at least introduce me to the person of Jesus and to His Church, always in a kind and patient manner. I’d also want that neighbor to realize that it is ultimately my choice to believe or not to believe. No one can force faith upon another. That is the dignity of each one of us. We cannot be forced to believe or not to believe. Really that is the beauty of God. He never forces, only invites. If the offer is rejected, that is completely between that person and God. I never make any judgement as to who is in hell as in fact you will find, that neither does the Catholic Church. We have cannonized saints, but never confirmed damned.
Ultimately, this is my question to atheists. You do realize that we are talking about eternity. If Christians are correct, even if there is only the smallest most infinitesimal chance that God exists, and there is an eternal heaven or hell, a place of eternal love or eternal hate, and that your soul does not die but will take its place one day in either place, would it not be most reasonable to sincerely explore the possibility that God does exist?
The stakes are not finite but infinite…
My prayers are always with you….
God Bless!
To Geri:
You realise I hope that you’re a Christian because you were raised in a Christian environment. It’s not like you spent all your life studying the religions of the world (past and present) and came to the rational conclusion that Christianity was the best bet.
Had you been born and raised in a Muslim culture, you’d be a Muslim and you’d swear that Islam is the one true faith.
Geri said:
You do realize that we are talking about eternity. If Christians are correct, even if there is only the smallest most infinitesimal chance that God exists, and there is an eternal heaven or hell, a place of eternal love or eternal hate, and that your soul does not die but will take its place one day in either place, would it not be most reasonable to sincerely explore the possibility that God does exist?
According to Muslims, all non Muslims go to hell where they spend an eternity in a sea of molten lead. Have you thought about that? Wouldn’t make sense then to convert to Islam, just in case? What if Muslims are right? Are you willing to take a chance? I mean, we’re talking about eternity here!
If I modify your comment, here’s what you get:
You do realize that we are talking about eternity. If Muslims are correct, even if there is only the smallest most infinitesimal chance that Islam is true, and there is an eternal heaven or hell, a place of eternal love or eternal hate, and that your soul does not die but will take its place one day in either place, would it not be most reasonable to sincerely explore the possibility that Islam might be true?
How do you feel about that, Geri?
Wow, Geri, you don’t know much about the history of your Church.
You say “No one can force faith upon another. That is the dignity of each one of us. We cannot be forced to believe or not to believe. Really that is the beauty of God. He never forces, only invites. If the offer is rejected, that is completely between that person and God. I never make any judgement as to who is in hell as in fact you will find, that neither does the Catholic Church. We have cannonized saints, but never confirmed damned.”
Your Church used to exterminate entire villages and towns for not believing or for believing differently. It also tortured people to try and convert them.
Geri-
You should read the articles on this site relating to “Pascal’s Wager.” If you do, you will find out that your proposition that we should believe due to the possibility of living in an eternal hell, is not a new argument. In fact, Pascal’s Wager has several logical flaws which have been debunked over the years. A quick read will explain this.
Also, the comment above by another poster is compelling Geri. What if Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any of a number of other religions, are actually the true religion, shouldn’t you convert to guard yourself against eternal damnation?
Nice try Geri… try again!
Better convert to every religion, just to be safe.
Joseph,
That video is simply brilliant.
Geri said-
No you probably wouldn’t. If you were not a Christian you would likely have no desire for your Christian neighbor to “introduce” you to Jesus or the Church. The only reason you claim this now is because you already are a Christian.
Since you are Christian already, would you like for your Muslim neighbor to politely introduce you to the true message of Allah from his one and only prophet, Muhammad? What of your Hindu neighbor, Jewish neighbor, Buddhist neighbor, pagan neighbor or so on?
Would you like for your atheist neighbor to politely explain that your religious beliefs are most likely not only wrong but damaging to yourself and others and that you can live a very fulfilling life without the unnecessary weight of religious dogma holding you down?
The word “invites” at the end is incorrect according to Christian doctrine. The more accurate wording would be “threatens”. This is in the same way that the mob does not force store owners to pay protection money.
You might want to take an objective look into the history of the Catholic Church and then reevaluate that last part. True, no one has ever been confirmed to be damned to hell. Then again, no one has ever been confirmed to be in heaven either. Indeed, neither place has ever actually been shown to exist for someone to go to in the first place.
Believers remind me a lot of folks who believe in Santa. “He sees you when your’re sleeping, He knows when your’re awake,He knows if you’ve been bad or good,so be good for goodness sake” What’s the difference?
Ultimately, this is my question to atheists. You do realize that we are talking about eternity. — Geri on June 2, 2009 at 5:50 pm
For someone who frets about eternity, you certainly didn’t stick around here very long. Apparently you were not very interested in whether anyone here actually has a response for the question upon which you claim eternity hangs.
If Christians are correct, even if there is only the smallest most infinitesimal chance that God exists, and there is an eternal heaven or hell, a place of eternal love or eternal hate, and that your soul does not die but will take its place one day in either place, would it not be most reasonable to sincerely explore the possibility that God does exist? — Geri on June 2, 2009 at 5:50 pm
The question you pose is so old that it has its own name, “Pascal’s Wager,” and it is fraught with weaknesses.
Among these is the problem of avoiding the wrong hell. Do you lose sleep at night, worrying that you will go to the hell of the Muslims? Why not? If you don’t worry about going to their hell, why should I worry about going to yours?
If your question was a good one for us to ponder, is it also a good one for you to ponder? If it was important for us to answer it, is it important for you to answer it?
Geri, you’re going to spend your eternity downing in marinara for denying the FSM!
Geri, You might be interested in a little Catholic Church history. Please click on
http://www.exposingchristianity.com/Inquisition.html
Geri, I am an atheist; one of our next door neighbors (and best friends) is Mormon, one is Catholic;, and I have no idea what any of the others are. In the 12+ years that we have lived here, no one has ever attempted (in a kind and patient way, or otherwise) to introduce us to Jesus, Joseph Smith, Brigham young, the Pope or anybody else. My neighbors tend to their own business, for which I am grateful. I grew up in the Presbyterian church, and graduated from a Presbyterian high school. Church history is one of my hobbies; there is little (if anything) that any Christian can tell me.
Sorry, Brigham, I accidentally did not capitalize Young. Here it is: Brigham Young.
OK, Geri. You don’t think that you get defensive if someone asks you to prove the validity of Christianity. I ask you to please prove that Christianity is valid; nothing you have said even suggests, much less proves it, if you were attempting to do so. Several people have made well thought out comments to you, and have received no reply. Your post is typical of many Christians that comment on this site; “preach and run”. When I post, I would consider myself very rude if anyone takes their time to comment to me and I did not answer, whether or not I agree.
Just wondering, as an atheist (who was raised Catlick, “UGH!”)…
who the “hell” first dreamed up the ridiculous, vicious, and utterly stupid and rather simple-minded, black/white, up/down (flat Earth) dichotomy of Heaven/Hell. What an utterly vicious concept! And, how psychotic!
Could it be…that so-called…(possibly imaginary and epileptic?) “Saint” Paul?
[Not to mention all those other deluded, eminently lying and blatantly fraudulent, Bible scribes]
My wondering is metaphorical, of course. Aside from previous more ancient “Underworld” afterlife notions of the various pagan predecessors; the truly guilty “Abrahamic” party is, not the Jews, but the “Jesus, meek and mild” Christian religion; followed later, of course, by the third in succession…those ultra-delusional dictatorship loving…Muslims. The Jews, as I understand, especially the Reformed type, downplay significantly any dogmatic afterlife scenario; certainly the Hell aspect. And the Orthodox, especially the Kabalah-base, actually have more of an Eastern, almost “New Age” notion…that being the concept of Reincarnation. In other words, no permanent state of existence in any hell.
Hinduism has its rather bizarre mixture of “Transmigration”, entailing (pun intended?) evolutionary rebirth in various animal forms, and the more appealing(?), “Reincarnation”…rebirth strictly in human form.
Back to my basic point. Western believers (simple minded dupes?) seem to always assume the Heaven/Hell scenario; which seems to me, to be the most Sado-Masochistic of all the afterlife notions…which amounts to, in essence, the totally Cosmologically unjust “blaming of the victim”; which has its source, of course, in the obviously contradictory Genesis I and II…a most despicable, I’d say, childish depiction of an invisible, imaginary and SUPPOSED “All-Loving”, “All Powerful”, “Infinitely Just”, yada, yada…Deity.
The, “Have I got a plan for YOU!” Shmuck!
A Deity, I submit, which is tantamount to an ultimate representation of the “Archetype of all Tyrants”; which puts to shame and makes comparative “mincemeat” of every known and despised human Tyrant in history…ala Hitler, etc.
The “God” as in, “NOBODY compares with…the “Great and Wonderful Oz”!
I’ll end my little poorly concealed diatribe with an atheist view of the afterlife…that is to say NON-afterlife.
After my own, personal, 69 years of struggle on this “Demon Haunted Planet” (pardon my Sagan?); what the “hell” is wrong with simple “Nothingness” after death? “Non-Being”…no problems, no arguments, no jobs to worry about, no Health care concerns, no tests…EVER…fade to total black…NADA…and ESPECIALLY, no further bowing down, or kissing-arse praising and worship. And “DAMN!”…all that totally embarrassing “Divine” (or Santa Claus-like) Voyeurism.
(Like Karl (9) pointed to…”He sees you when your sleeping; He knows when you’re awake…” zama, zama.)
Yeah, like…”BUZZ OFF, YOU DIVINE, ULTRA-SICKO PERVERT!”
(Echos through the land?)
In short(?)…”When you die…It’s over, dude/dudess! Get over it!”
After all is said and done, what’s the problem? No Ego, No consciousness whatsoever…no problemo!
As in Hamlet:
“To BE (Exist), or NOT to Be…that is (or SHOULD be) the question!” Now, THERE’S a true “Free Will” choice. Absolutely NO punishment needed.
You get the picture.
Can you tell I’ve been influenced, somewhat, by the Neitchse-like mantra:
“Existence is Absurd!”?
OK…I’ll shut up now.
^ I meant: “Nietzsche-like”
My apology to Friedrich?
Many thanks for your answer, Geri. You did not get defensive when I asked you to prove the validaty of Christianity. You could not, so you “ran”, as I had expected. Don’t be too disturbed; no Christian can. I will not trouble you further.