'Waterboard Thrill Ride' by Steve Powers
August 14, 2008
Photo: Mario Tama/Getty Images
No, the numbers aren't irrelevant because the white evangelical Christians who appear to be most supportive of using torture are precisely the ones who keep insisting that the secular Americans who are least supportive of using torture are also the least moral. It's conservative evangelical Christianity which is supposed to be the moral and political backbone of America, not secularism, so why is there a consistently stronger correlation between the former and using torture?
More than half of people who attend services at least once a week — 54 percent — said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is “often” or “sometimes” justified. Only 42 percent of people who “seldom or never” go to services agreed, according the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.
White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified — more than 6 in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only 4 in 10 of them did.
Source: CNN
Numbers on torture are just all over the map. In a 2008 poll by Faith in Public Life and Mercer University, 57% said torture "can be often or sometimes justified to gain important information from suspected terrorists." Only 38% thought that torture was rarely or never justified. Among white Southern evangelicals, 44% said that they relied on "life experiences and common sense" when forming their views on torture; only 28% said they "relied on Christian teachings or beliefs."
Let's compare these numbers with those from a Pew Research Center survey in October, 2005:
People who think that torture is often or sometimes justified:
Total Public: 46%
Total Catholic: 56%
White Protestant: 49%
White Evangelical: 49%
Secular: 35%
People who think that torture is rarely or never justified:
Total Public: 49%
Total Catholic: 42%
White Protestant: 47%
White Evangelical: 47%
Secular: 57%
The most recent numbers are, on the whole, far better than they used to be but there are still large numbers of people willing to use torture. It would appear, moreover, that secularists remain far more likely than Christians, or even the whole population, to say that torture is never justified. Secularists remain far less likely than Christians, or even the whole population, to think that torture is often justified (same is true for “sometimes justified”).
In America, then, it seems that Christians are far more likely to support moral evil than atheists or agnostics. No wonder Christian citizens and Christian politicians were so supportive of Christian President Bush's efforts to authorize torture and abuse of suspects detained in the War on Terror. Why?
Atheism and agnosticism are not ideologies, religions, or belief systems and as such cannot be credited with necessarily making a person more moral. Atheism doesn't teach a person to be good or bad, kind or cruel. there are certainly plenty of examples from the past of atheists who have been cruel.
Perhaps the answer lies in Christianity — and specifically American Christianity — rather than atheism or agnosticism. Perhaps there is something about American Christianity which dulls people's ability to treat others decently, especially when the "others" are unlike them and living in another country. This obviously isn't true about all Christians in America, but those for whom it isn't true need to address this issue.
Torture, what an unsavory topic. Perhaps those who are not against abortion should be willing to look at the issue through the lens of torture.
Interestingly some atheists and agnostics do so (godlessprolifers.org) albeit not many. Why not more? If they did, would more be against abortion? Maybe. Is there perhaps something about secularism which dulls people’s willingness or ability to treat preborn children decently?
Don’t you love it when pro-life Christians preach about how abortion is torture but then they turn around and support the belief in hell?
Yo Carter, self-righteous obsession with abortion is just a front for your true purpose: controlling women, women’s bodies, sex, and who has sex. All anti-abortion folks better work to prove that they really care about the widdle bitty preborn babies by refusing to support governments that kill both post-born and preborn children by dropping bombs on them. Until you do, your credibility is nil.
Davethewave (cool name) I am against abortion but I agree wholeheartedly with you. The reason is the same as the error this author made about the Christians attending church being more committed. They’re not. I know that sounds confusing, but the reason is that we are now experiencing the great Apostasy (falling away from truth) Paul taught would happen to the church. Many devout Christians are staying away from churches, either by personal devotions or forming cell groups to worship in the homes of like minded friends. They stay away so as not to pollute their minds with false teachings. Many top church leaders supported Bush and his murderous minions in order to receive the $millions of “faith based initiative” money. They also fell in goose step to support Zionist Israel under the false belief that these people are the same people as the Israelites of the bible. Most are not. In Vietnam, many of my fellow Marines who were POW’s were tortured mercilessly because they refused to talk. Morally, as Americans we are supposed to be better than that. Those under the deception of that false angel of light can’t get it, but America as a once Christian nation (no more, I admit) must be morally sound to set an example to the world. That is the code Marines have lived by and fought for for over two centuries. The torture and war mongering Christians of the so-called church have been deceived and are probably those that will readily accept the mark of the beast.
Feel free to support this assertion.
Well, I’m sure you can provide some statistics to back this up.
What does that mean, exactly, that America was a “Christian nation”?
Dave, I am not really sure what my credibility or lack there of has to do with what I posted. Mr. Cline quoted some statics about the percentage of certain groups of people who thought “torture” was justifiable in certain circumstances. He noticed that as a group secularists were less likely to support torture of (enemy combatants) than were Christians and especially regular church going Christians. He then asked the question “Why”?
He wondered if there is something systemic to Christianity — and specifically American Christianity which allows Christians to tolerate the torture enemy combatants to a greater degree than secularists. I as a Christian didn’t object to that question. It may very well be a good one to ask. I don’t see why you take offense with me asking a similar question.
Whether or not water boarding and other “enhanced interrogation techniques” constitute torture is debated by people much more knowledgeable and smarter than I am. However, it is not debatable, even among abortionists, that many of the preborn children do feel pain as they are dying from an abortion. All agree that many of the children are.
I think secularists who are against the torture of enemy combatants in all or most circumstances should also be against the kind of torture which is the purposeful and direct cause of the death of millions of children a year.
As I noted there are some atheists and agnostics who take this position, but most do not, and I wondering why that is the case. Perhaps you can give us all some credible information which will help us understand that better. That kind of information may better serve this community than do attacks on my person and my alleged motives.
This assumes “decent treatment” entails using state force to prevent women from making decisions about who or what will and will not have access to her bodily systems and organs. I don’t share that assumption; quite the contrary, I believe that a person’s autonomy extends to having just about absolute authority over such decisions without any interference from the state.
Dave is quite right to observe how some Christians are interested in turning just about any discussion towards abortion rather than stick to the original issues. I’m afraid you’re going to have to stick to the original issues here if you want to keep posting. This article is about Christian support for torture, not abortion. If you have questions about abortion, then ask them in the forum.
Christians, by definition, can not condone torture. I tried to find passages in the Bible where Jesus would have approved it, but couldn’t find any. And Jesus had nothing good to say about the United States, either. Actually, I don’t see how the “Christian Right” (or whatever tag applies) can consider themselves Christian. They do not, in any way, embrace the teachings of Jesus. They are merely “Sunday Christians”, and actually are the most immoral, disgusting, and contradicted group of people on this planet. And just as they claim that the Bible is inerrorable, then I submit my position is inarguable.
darbea,
Did you read the old testament? I mention this because it is the place where various tortures, and even murder are the easiest to find, as commanded by god. jesus said I came not to change the laws (of the o.t.) but to uphold them. jesus was absolutely no better than the god of the bible,and did condone torture of the harshest kind.
When you say christians are the most immoral, disgusting, and contradicted group, remember jesus was the first one.
As a follower of Christ for 20+ years, and someone who has spent time serving as Pastor of 2 different evangelical churches, I find the assertion that Christians support torture troubling, but not shocking. Troubling to my core, that we have so intertwined politics and faith. If the Republicans condone an activity, too many Christians call it acceptable in a misguided attempt to preserve the larger good they see in that Party. Not shocking at all, though. The last church I served as Pastor, I chose the Sunday after election day to speak on the historic election of a Black man to the presidency of the United States. I addressed some of the responses that we would hear in the Christian media in general, the presence of tangible hate, and what our response must be. We must pray, and trust what the Bible says, that God Himself places people in positions of authority. The response to that message was generally good, but there were some that came after me with a vengeance for “endorsing a baby killer”. There words were not laced with love, but anger and hatred. And it had less to do with his beliefs (few of them know Obama’s position on much of anything beyond abortion) and more with the fact that he was a Democrat.
Many right wing Christians endorse torture because the leadership of the Republican party endorses it, not because it is a biblical value.
@Carter -
“Whether or not water boarding and other “enhanced interrogation techniques” constitute torture is debated by people much more knowledgeable and smarter than I am.”
Knowledgeable as in having experienced it themselves?
I didn’t know you had to be “smarter” to know that subjecting someone to near-asphyxiation / near-drowning constitutes torture.
In fact, I would say it’s stupider to even debate it. Or perhaps just criminally insensitive /inhuman.
CVal (4):
Every time I read that an American thinks his country “must be morally sound to set an example to the world” it makes me want to puke, and it makes me happy that I don’t have to share citizenship with such a parochial, intellectual pigmy.
Here’s a newsflash: most of us living in other parts of the “advanced” world consider the US to be the last place we would choose in the advanced world to live in, which is where you are ranked by basically every social indicator in every study. In short, get over yourself; you’re embarrassing for the Americans who are decent.