What about cases where religious believers lie, though? If you find that churches, adherents, and religious leaders have been lying to you, then is doubting and even rejecting what you've been taught still an emotional or psychological reaction to bad behavior? I'm not so sure. If people are lying to you about something obvious, they may be lying about other things, and lies are an excellent, rational reason to doubt or reject an ideology.
Charles Darwin which is the foundation of Evolution even said in the “Origin of Species” stated the eye is so complex that the theory he says as natural selection is impossible for the eye to be formed by this theory. -- free spirit on February 25, 2009 at 12:25 am
The creationist lie that you uncritically parrot here is, as it happens, the proximate cause of my own atheism.
When I was about 11 years old, I read a creationist "textbook" from the library of my church, and it contained exactly the same lie that you have repeated above.
I didn't know the first thing about evolution or Charles Darwin, but when I read that creationist claim about Darwin and the eye, it seemed natural to me to get a copy of Origin of Species and read the relevant passage. When I did, the words on the page struck me like a thunderbolt.
Three facts became instantly apparent:
1) The creationist author had utterly misrepresented Darwin's point.
2) The misrepresentation was deliberate. It could not possibly be an honest mistake.
3) The creationist author clearly had written in the rock-solid confidence that his intended readers could be counted upon to never, ever crack open a copy of Origin of Species and directly investigate Darwin's words.
Of these three facts, it was the last that really rocked my back on my heels -- the author's absolute contempt for his audience, his smug certainty that they possessed not a scintilla of real curiosity or even simple integrity.
You could say that this episode of the eye caused the scales to fall from my own eyes. Within a fairly short time I ceased to be a Christian and became an atheist.
[original post]
You can find lies just about everywhere in apologetics and theology, but faith-based denial of science — whether it's creationism or something else — contains far more than the usual. There are of course cases of genuine ignorance, misunderstanding, and even stubbornness, but it's impossible to have so many blatant falsehoods without relying on a large number of lies.
Too often, those lies are combined with the arrogant, condescending assumption that no one will ever check up on them and learn the truth. Or is it really so condescending? After all, how many believers do what Zack did: look up the information and recognize that they were lied to? Very, very few do this, so perhaps creationists who lie like this are entirely justified in assuming that few will check up on them.
Is this an indictment of America's educational system, that so few young people have learned to be skeptical enough to double-check what they are told? Is this an indictment of American Christianity, that Christians are trained to be so gullible that they simply accept at face value whatever a supposed religious leader tells them?
If you were ever a believer, did you ever catch apologists or religious leaders in obvious lies? If so, what did you do and how did you react?
Excellent comment. Another rather damning exposure of apologetic dishonesty can be found in
Ebonmuse’s review of CS Lewis’ Mere Christianity.
The review of the preface is especially revealing. I’ll quote my favourite bit below:
They really do our work for us, sometimes. As Hitchens says, we often just need to underline what they say.
Most Christians want the lies. It reinforces their beliefs. Their beliefs are a house of cards built on illusion. As long as the illusion can be maintained, even if that requires lying, the house will continue to stand.
“Is this an indictment of American Christianity, that Christians are trained to be so gullible that they simply accept at face value whatever a supposed religious leader tells them? ”
I have lost count of the number of times I and atheists on this site alone have had to point out parts of the bible to CHRISTIANS who seem to be totally unaware of there own holy book says. In fact I have lost count of how many christians have told me slavery isn’t even mentioned in the bible. I know this is an extreme case of ignorance, but it seems to be a wide spread affliction (for lack of a better word) shared by many.
I think more than the outright lies, what really opened my eyes was, as written above, the fact that obviously those telling the lies think they will never be found out – that no one they are lying to will ever pick up a book or do any sort of research on their own. In fact, the particular sect of Christianity that I extracted myself from specifically discouraged anything but “Christian education”. When I was younger (and more naive), I had no idea why, if all of this was true, they wouldn’t encourage people to learn as much as they could. Wouldn’t that only make their faith stronger?
When I realized the true answer to that question, I was finally able to really see the truth for myself.
“[D]id you ever catch apologists… in obvious lies? If so, what did you do and how did you react?”
Yes (and not all apologists are religious).
Beyond War and Peace: A Reappraisal of the Encounter between Christianity and Science
One obvious example relates to the quaint story we’ve all heard of Columbus overcoming the flat-earth-churchman to go and discover America. Trouble is, it’s a total crock. Columbus got opposition not because he was the only one who thought the world round, but because his opposition thought the globe was much bigger than he did. And they were right too — if he hadn’t run into the New World he’d have been in real trouble. The cute falsehood was perpetrated by early Cornell president Andrew Dickson White in his famous book about the alleged warfare between science and religion, A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom. When I was in college, it was essentially required reading for a budding would-be intellectual. Sadly, he is a liar.
Similarly, in his History of Western Philosophy, Bertrand Russell wrote that Calvin dismissed Copernicus simply by citing a verse from the Psalms (something like “The world is established and cannot be moved”) and noting that the Holy Spirit trumps Copernicus. Great illustration but, again, entirely false.
In A Devil’s Chaplain, Richard Dawkins quotes Tertullian to say that he believes because it is absurd. But Tertullian never wrote it. Since some secondary sources do say he did, it may be that we should put this instance down to just plain bad scholarship by Dawkins rather than lying, but it’s hard to tell.
How do I react? By recalling that there’s always more than enough evil, nonsense, spin, irresponsibility and misplaced ego (on all sides) to go around.
I can only ever speak for myself. I have come to atheism purely by logic and examination of facts. Religion is wanting in both.
The fact that religions will lie or deny obvious facts shows they don’t have much quality evidence for their beliefs.
A war between science and religion?
Science is the search for explanations of the natural world. Science is not at war with religion, although religion may be at war with any science that does not confirm its dogma.
I am currently reading Bart Ehrman’s latest book “Jesus, Interrupted …” Ehrman, who is a professor at the Department of Religious Studies at UNC, describes some of the many discrepancies between the Gospel accounts of Jesus’ life.
Many of these discrepancies are easy to find and most cannot be reconciled. Yet, millions of evangelics still believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. How can that be?
The only explanation that I can come up with is that they must be brainwashed into thinking that God works in mysterious ways and much of what He does is beyond human comprehension. There is obviously no point in reasoning with people who believe their own lies.
Like Madov, Ponzi, et. al., religion is the ultimate scam. People invest in it, working for a big payoff at the end but the “church” never has to pay out. And better yet, the customers can’t complain about not getting return on their investment.
Don’t underestimate the power of the desire to believe, nor underestimate the gullibility of people.
Religion requires and consists of three elements: delusion, ignorance, and dishonesty. That’s it, that’s all.
All three are present in all religious contexts; the only thing that varies is the percentage of each in the mix in that particular situation.
Be you a drug addict, sex predator,
or pious nob,
need trumps reality.
peter g
Sornord says:
Like Madov, Ponzi, et. al., religion is the ultimate scam. People invest in it, working for a big payoff at the end but the “church” never has to pay out. And better yet, the customers can’t complain about not getting return on their investment.
I’ve been saying this for years. It is the be-all and end-all of scams.
People are offered an impossible reward. To get this reward, they have to believe all the BS they are told and toe the line; this is easily achieved because the offer is one that few could refuse.
But the icing on the cake is that the church, after receiving a lifetime of dues from their willing dupes, doesn’t even have to make good on its promise, because the reward will only be delivered “after you die.”
And people actually believe in this stuff??!!
What a racket! Better than anything Ponzi ever came up with!
I have to agree with the late George Carlin on this one, when he said (paraphrasing):
Religion is the greatest BS story ever told!!!!!!!!!!!
In order for people to feel whole they need an identity. The identity will become more important than facts so out of self preservation people will deny deny deny. If an identity includes critical thinking then the truth will out eventually. Thus the need for self segregation of “exclusive” religions. Occasionally a traumatic incident will change a perspective, like the death of my former girlfriend’s child. Since there was no God there was no succor or remedy and the ’scales’ fell from her eyes. Her identity had been breached but it reformed into a more balanced individual but not without sorrow and bitterness.
This can be seen, to a lesser extent, in political identity.
The panoply of obvious lies and inaccuracies is what led to my own deconversion around the age of 12.
So many of the stories HAD to be viewed in isolation as they made no sense as part of a narrative.
Surely if a 12 year old boy can divine this, the learned men of the various denominations can (and obviously do) as well.
As an aside on education, if the religious right insists on “teaching the controversy” in science classes, aren’t we then given the corollary right to “teach the controversy” of scripture in bible class or Sunday school?
Why be surprised?
Ezekiel 14: 9
I the lord have deceived that prophet.
Surely the whole bible is a deception.
2 Thessalonians:2:11
god shall send them strong delusion that they shall believe a lie.
Can I say more?