Comment of the Week: Dealing with Religious Gifts
I received a Mothers’ Bible years ago, not as a xmas gift, but as a thank you from a PTA president for working on a lengthy and involved project. This woman and I were just acquaintances, not friends. I could not accept the present, so I wrote her a nice note thanking her for the kind thoughts (even though it was presumptuous on her part) and telling her about my atheism and the reasons why I felt I had to return the gift.
Of course I had no way of knowing her reaction, but she really surprised me when she wanted to sit and talk about it over coffee. What didn't surprise me was when she told me that I was the first atheist she had ever gotten to know. That little fact saddened me, but I was happy to be her first. :-) I hope I left her with a positive impression of atheism and of those who hold that position.
[original post]
So even if the gift of religious material might be presumptuous and arrogant, chances are most Christians are completely oblivious to that. It's wrong for them to assume that others are basically like themselves, but they won't understand how wrong it is unless and until someone tells them this. The question is, what's the best way to convey this information such that it will actually be understood and make a change in their behavior?
Some people require a more dramatic confrontation with reality before that reality will be felt while others can be changed with a few simple, kind words. I don't know if there is any way to determine that in advance, so I guess the gentler approach is probably best at first — these are personal, individual interactions after all which may not require the more politicized, activist tactics that work best in other contexts.
Comments
I married into a family with some JWs in it. JW set of relatives “A” is visiting local nonJW relative “B” in our area. “B” and my family get together and celebrate the holiday every year at B’s home. However, B’s partner died a few months ago, and as a gesture, I have offered to take care of the dinner and have “B” in our home. But this leaves “A” family out in the cold.
When I asked about inviting “A” I was told by my spouse and by “B” that there would be concerns. My feeling was that if we were having a holiday dinner, “A” should be invited if only for social reasons (as the “A”s are visiting from out of town). The “A”s have a child, and I am planning to decorate and would like to give the child a gift (in generic non-Xmas wrap). My logic is that if it _weren’t_ Xmas, we’d still be visiting with them since we always get together with them when they come to town. The fact they came to town over Xmas–well, that’s just dumb luck. And if we have a dinner planned anyway–all the better for efficiency.
Rather than pussyfoot around with my spouse and “B,” I decided to talk to “A” directly about how they handle the holiday and if decorations were an issue and if a generic “glad to see you” gift to the child would be a problem.
As it turned out, “A” was very happy to come for dinner, and was grateful for the offer. “A” also called back later to talk to my spouse and noted how kind and thoughtful I was to call them and invite them and confirm with them what their limits might be and how they prefer to handle the arrangements.
Ironically, as an atheist, you learn rather quickly to be sensitive to other people’s potential issues–because you are treated firsthand to such a heaping helping of slights and proactive offenses at this time of year.
Not only do Christians who push “Merry Christmas” potentially offend atheists and those of other religions–they can often be offending _other Christians_ who feel that celebrating a pagan holiday in Chistian guise is actually an offense to Yahweh (since it is by no means Biblically supported as a Christian holiday).
I honestly don’t care how other people celebrate. But I see a huge benefit in society to treating others with regard. I just find it ironic that in a society full to the brim with Christians who celebrate the season of sharing and giving–it took an atheist’s sensitivity to make a JW feel welcomed and respected with regard to his handling of the holiday.
The way some Christians rail, you’d think the “reason for the season” (to them) is to be as hateful, obnoxious, offensive, and arrogant as possible to anyone outside your immediate social circle. They talk about the “war on Christmas”–but it honestly seems like they are the only ones who think there’s something to fight about. The only time they complain about how someone else treats them, it always seems to be a case where they are being barred from using government/public land to push their religion down other people’s throats. Are they really shocked when they get negative backlash from that sort of anti-social behavior?
I live in an area where people are Jesus freaks, and I really don’t feel like confronting them. Besides, non-believers are pretty much shunned here–they lose businesses, relationships, etc. So I accept the Christian gifts, then donate them to homeless shelters.
I volunteered for a non-profit a few years ago, and was going through a rut careerwise.
(The director said she had prayed to God that all her volunteers love God.)
Anyway, I never came right out and said I was an atheist, but I did openly and respectfully question her Chrisitian convictions.
Then one day, she handed me a bible as a gift. She started screaming and yelling at me, and told me I would never find peace without a deep faith in God. (She believed her Christian convictions gave her the right to be rude when “ministering”.) I was offended–I had not treated her so rudely, so why do this to me? I left the organization right then and there.
I am still angry with that director–I really had some good things to offer her organization.
I have observed that people who are eager to share their beliefs with me have no wish to have me share my dis-beliefs with them. Anyone else noticed this ?
Tis true. Methinks it is a privilege/majority thing. If you’re in the majority, anyone who disagrees with you must listen to you correct them and have no interest in listening to you. This is esp. true of life long held beliefs or beliefs that permeate their lives.
As a vegetarian, i’m often expected to defend myself, or explain how and why. As if by being unlike them, i am disapproving of them and must justify the attack. Or maybe they’re looking for a fight. After a few years of this i stopped, i pretty much refuse to discuss it. And i’ve never once attacked a non-vegetarian, or tried to make them feel bad or tel gross stories about how their food became food.
i suppose for someone who is deeply religious, or if their religion is intertwined with their culture, anyone not participating in that is a chink in their armor. They have to patch that hole quickly and decisively, lest their view of the world fall apart.
I wonder: if you made it clear that you were a vegetarian for religious reasons, if your experiences would be different? If so, that would point to the privileging of religious over secular beliefs.
I recently discovered that without actually trying to be, I have over time become a vegitarian. I do not remember having ever actually enjoyed red meat at all so I ate chicken or fish from time to time. In the last year, I honestly cannot remember eating meat at all and if by chance I did, it was probably in some sort of family gathering. My family has always and will always eat meat.
I am considered “the freak” of the family anyway due to just about everything about me not being what they consider “normal”. I am no longer under the watchful eye of them and I have finally made a stand where trying to please them in concerned. I realize people do not eat meat for many different reasons. Not only do I not really enjoy the taste of it, I happen to be an extremely strong advocate where life other than humans is concerned. I can no longer live a hypocritical life in order to please others.
Not just where vegatarianism is concerned but where all things are concerned.
Now when it comes to discussing any aspect of my belief system with another person, I refuse to argue. It always seems the other person begins to get irate and confrontational. I will make one attempt to let them understand that it is just a conversation of ideals. After that I walk away. I do not believe it is possible for me to become angry in a simple conversation. Why in the world would I allow another person’s words to cause me to become defensive?
However, in the real world given a situation that is in my face and contradicts my morals or belief system,I will with out a doubt react. This would be a situation where another life is at stake. Human or animal.
How very true, Godfree!
Since coming out of the closet re religion several years ago, I have to admit that I pussyfooted along for some time, not that I was lukewarm about my enlightenment, but that Christians always came back to me in a most strident manner, mainly my family (siblings).
Finally, I put a stop to it, by declaring flat-out that I was an atheist and that I would no longer put up with their sanctimonious drivel.
Now, I am completely alienated from my family, but, SO BE IT!!!!
Family is as close as one can get, but they clearly showed me that they were willing to risk alienation to put their own message across, so I chose to do likewise.
I now refuse to compromise my belief, or, in this case, DISBELIEF, with anyone, come what might.
When they sanctimoniously told me that they grieved over my lack of “hope,” or that they would pray for me, I simply told them to save their breath.
I believe there are times when atheists MUST stand up for their beliefs, despite the risks involved!
Being estranged from my family may not be the best situation, but at least my “coming out” put a stop to all their trite bible-thumping messages.
Atheists must dare to challenge religion’s naive beliefs and all its mind-numbing messages of hate and fear laced with blatant threats.
The surprising thing about my enlightenment was the elation I felt when I came to the realization that religion was just so much bunkum.
My only regret is that I didn’t come to my senses much earlier in my life!
But, better late than never!!!!!!!!
“I wonder: if you made it clear that you were a vegetarian for religious reasons, if your experiences would be different? If so, that would point to the privileging of religious over secular beliefs.”
When discussing it with my mom (when i was first considering it) she asked if it was for religious/spiritual reasons. She didn’t know i had lost interest in religion years before. i said it didn’t have anything to do with any books written ages ago, or something said by any such figures.
i bet if i HAD said i was Buddhist or some such, i would have taken less crap. Following the tenets of a religion is fine/to be expected. But making a moral decision on your own… well that’s just wrong!
I honestly believe that most of my family is afraid to even question my beliefs concerning religion or lack there of.
At the same time, I think they are afraid because they probably have at the very least,the idea that my ideals or not even closely related. So in order to “keep the peace” they simply avoid asking me. Dog forbid one of my family members being able to discuss this on a non emotional level.
Jolly Jack: in my line of work I ask people personal questions. There is no person on earth who has a happy relationship with both their parents, all their siblings, and all their children (never mind all the spouses of these people too).
In other words, don’t lose too much sleep over not having a great relationship with your family. You make your own social circle, whether you’re family is in it or not. Don’t have regrets for some lost ideal that nobody else has. Cheers!
…in my line of work I ask people personal questions. There is no person on earth who has a happy relationship with both their parents, all their siblings, and all their children (never mind all the spouses of these people too). — Drew on January 3, 2009 at 1:45 am
I guess it depends on how high you set the bar for “happy” and how far you care to extend the family, but I quite enjoy my parents, my spouse, my children, and my siblings. It has never seemed to me that mine is an especially rare circumstance.
What kind of people are you questioning in this line of work that you do?
As a vegetarian, i’m often expected to defend myself, or explain how and why. — Todd on January 2, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I’m a meat eater, and I have seen my fellow carnivores display the bad manners you descibe.
Personally, I try to avoid discussion of vegetarian diets entirely, because I fear that the weight of evidence and moral argument is heavily in your favor. I don’t want to surrender my bacon.
Zack said: I guess it depends on how high you set the bar for “happy” and how far you care to extend the family, but I quite enjoy my parents, my spouse, my children, and my siblings. It has never seemed to me that mine is an especially rare circumstance.
Zack, if you are an atheist and the rest of your extended family is Christian, and the Christian side is happy with that arrangement, then I would tend to think that your situation is pretty unique.
In my experience, once religion comes into the equation and there is disagreement, watch out! Tiptoe through the tulips because you have entered a minefield, no exceptions!
You can disagree to almost any extent on any other subject, but religion is a whole new ballgame!
Zack, if you are an atheist and the rest of your extended family is Christian, and the Christian side is happy with that arrangement, then I would tend to think that your situation is pretty unique. — Jolly Jack on January 4, 2009 at 12:01 am
Jolly Jack: I was responding to this post by Drew:
There is no person on earth who has a happy relationship with both their parents, all their siblings, and all their children (never mind all the spouses of these people too). — Drew on January 3, 2009 at 1:45 am
Please note that Drew’s assertion is that no person on Earth has a happy relationship with their parents, etc, etc.
This is quite a different point than the one you make, which, as I understand it, is that Christian relatives may be unhappy that there is an atheist in the family. You would have to take that up with the Christians, as I am only able to speak for myself. However, I can tell you that I don’t see it as my duty to ensure that all other people are always happy with me.
However, it is not my experience that the simple fact of atheism must inevitably lead to acrimony, and I live in a Southern state that routinely finds itself in the news for violations of church/state separation.
I have to side with Zack.
I have been an atheist since I started to think independently and that is about seventy years ago. My mother was a “Spiritualist.” My Wife a “Quaker”. (married forty six years.) Can’t say it ever was a problem. They may have thought I was peculiar. I understood WHY they believed, but then my wife, in particular, belonged to that religion which allowed each individual member to interpret their beliefs any way they chose. The Spiritualists? Well they were so used to being considered crackpots by all the other religions my opinion was irrelevant. As was my consideration of their opinions on my own position.
Yep! You can all live harmoniously; just exercise tolerance, even if it has to be tempered by amusement. I guess the big difference being. We weren’t American.