Mailbag: Never Forget
Subject: This forum is pointless!
Never forget this. God cares for you and desporatly wants you to be set free. but... you love your sin too much. You must make a choice and make it now. I don't have to argue with you because deep down in your spirits you know what I am talking about. For thoes of you who think I might be joking. I'm not.
Ah, three common misconceptions all rolled into one. First, Dan think that atheists "love their sin" - something that would be odd, considering atheists aren't likely to acknowledge the validity of orthodox Christian concepts of sin. Insofar as they might define "sin" as simply wrongdoing, they don't love it - just because a person is an atheist doesn't mean that they are steeped in immorality.
Second, Dan assumes that one can simply "choose" to stop being an atheist and suddenly become a theist. But such beliefs aren't "choices" - you can't just suddenly "choose" to believe that there is an elf in your kitchen when you never believed such a thing before. Beliefs simply aren't choices in that sense - it's an incoherent assumption to make.
Finally, Dan seems to assume that atheists all know "deep down" that he is right and that they must turn from sin - a very arrogant assumption which, sadly, is not limited to Dan. Quite a few Christians have believed and do believe that atheists actually "know" there is a God and that Christianity is true, but are in denial for some reason. One could just as plausibly, not to mention as arrogantly, assert that Christians all know "deep down" that there is no God and that Christianity is false. I'm sure that would go over well, wouldn't it?
Note: This message originally appeared in the Agnosticism / Atheism forum. Read the whole thread. More selections from the Agnosticism / Atheism Mailbag...
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Comments
Well, I think what Dan said is encouraging. At least the God love you part. IF there is a God, it’s great to know that He loves me. But think about this, if Athiests are incorrect the consequences could be huge, if Christians are incorrect the consequences will be people who stive for morality more than if they weren’t Chrsitian. Right?
Austin, I just spent half an hour reading all the posts in the Mailbag. I haven’t laughed that hard in ages. Congratulations on attracting some of the most bizarre emails ever!
patti
Wrong.
This is known as Pascal’s Wager and is among the worst, most flawed, apologetics arguments ever devised.
The unfortunate condition of people like Dan, is that they think they have the answer to everything, and everyone else is wrong.
Somehow they have “received” the information from an undeniably credible source; a book of myths written by ignorant men who barely knew anything of science, math, the world.
If people with as much ignorance authored a similar book, today, it would be deemed bad fiction. To base one’s life on this is as foolish as basing your world view on Mother Goose Rhymes.
They say “ignorance is bliss”. Actually, the correct quote is “IF ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise”.
Yet another argument that can just be flipped around and pointed at the theist. I don’t have to argue with Dan because deep down in his spirit he knows what I am talking about. In their hearts, all theists secretly know atheism is true. They just lie to themselves.
Does that convince you, Dan? Because I AM actually joking.
Knowing “God” loves me is about as helpful as knowing my dad loves me.
Currently neither my dad nor “God” makes any direct contact with me. Of course, the difference is that I have seen my dad and know for sure he exists.
To Dan:
Never forget, as another human being, I care about you, and want you to be set free. May your mind one day be free from the shackles of fear and superstition. And I say that with sincere sympathy and respect for you as a human being.
ric:
I’m sorry, but I just have to jump on your ignorance and arrogance. Christians who use your sort of reasoning forget all of the other religious beliefs out there. If Christians are wrong, then “the consequences could be huge” if some other deity is offended their apostasy.
Christianity and atheism are not the only possibilities of truth out there. By arguing as if the choice is only between those two options, then you not only prove how deluded you are, but you manage to insult the followers of all other belief systems (by acting like they don’t exist, or by lumping them with atheists) in the process. At least we atheists tend to be equal opportunity offenders, but in your case, it’s just hypocritical.
Also, the whole premise of people believing in a religion in order to “strive for morality” is deeply problematic. Why? Morality that is founded upon or derived from a collection of beliefs and stories that could simply be a pack of myths and superstitions is not morality that is tied to real-world concerns about how to treat others right.
If Christians “strive for morality” due to their commitment to their faith, then they are only striving for the Christian conception of morality, a morality that is sometimes arbitrary at best and barbaric at worst. For example, no Christian has ever shown how being a homosexual is harmful to oneself or to others. Yet many Christians like to rant about how “immoral” homosexuality is, simply because God says so. So what does morality mean, in that case? Is morality simply a matter of not doing anything offensive to God, rather than striving to be good to your fellow human being?
In history, Christian morals have also included principles that are racist, sexist, xenophobic, and genocidal — all of which are explicitly supported and even promoted by the Bible (and commanded by God himself). Are those the kind of morals that Christians should be proud to be striving to achieve?
Based on your own words, you seem to grant the possibility that Christianity could be wrong. But if in following Christianity, believers are “striving for morality,” then if Christianity is wrong, believers wouldn’t have a valid foundation for their morality. In other words, if Christians believe that what is “right” is whatever God says is right, and what is “wrong” is whatever God says is wrong, then without the anchor of God’s word, nothing could be “right” or “wrong.” But we know that this is not true, at least in a pragmatic sense. No matter what any one of us believes, we all have a sense of right and wrong based, among other things, on a sense of justice. So you see, there are bases for morality that don’t require any gods or supernatural beliefs. If Christians are wrong, then they’ve striven for a morality not based on the worldly, pragmatic concerns for their fellow human beings, but rather an arbitrary morality based on myths and superstitions.
So what do you mean by “morality”? What your morals?
And again, you’re saying that Christianity has a monopoly on morality, since you claim that Christians are more motivated to be moral than non-Christians are. But what about Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.?
Quick, everyone! He’s having an AC/DC moment! Raise your lighters aloft and sing it with me now:
“We-e-e-e saa-luuute you!”
I find it interesting that Christians can even leave their houses. In this country, they commit most of the murders, rapes, adultery, molestations and all the rest of the crimes. I rarely hear of an atheist or agnostic breaking the law. The same could be said for all the other religions. How can any Christian with half a brain think their religion has cornered the market on morality?
“How can any Christian with half a brain think their religion has cornered the market on morality?”
Well, GNSS, maybe it’s just that, once one has managed to ignore facts in a big way, ignoring them in lesser ways is kind of a breeze…?
The thing to remember about faith: it is, by definition, impervious to contradiction by rational—many Christians would substitute the word “carnal”—argumentation. It is the assertion that certain a priori conclusions ARE the truth, and that, if a given set of “so-called” facts appears to contravene them, the error lies in those facts, not in the faith-based assertion.
To Christians, and many other believers in gods and the supernatural, faith is a cardinal virtue, and to allow oneself to be reasoned out of it is a slap in god’s face.