Mailbag: Evolution and God, Part 2
Subject: The Everlasting Man
assuming youre an atheist, your faith in no god is based purely on the theory of evolution. since charles darwin publicised the theory of humble beginnings (a bang and ameoba and millions of years of gradual change) it has given people reason to believe that we came from something apart from a god, should i say "natural" beginnings.
If it wasn't clear from the first installment, by now it should be obvious that Martin knows hardly anything at all about either evolution or atheism. First, atheists don't have "faith in no god" - that's a misconception which apparently spreads because many people feel better thinking that atheism is as much of a faith as their religion is. You can always be sure that when you hear that idea come up, you're dealing with someone who doesn't have the first clue about atheism - and sadly, in too many cases, it turns out that they aren't actually interested in learning about atheism anyway. Chances are if you try to educate them, you'll only be banging your head against a brick wall.
Secondly, whatever atheism is, it's not "based purely on the theory of evolution." Disbelief in the existence of gods doesn't require evolution and atheism in turn isn't logically necessitated by evolution. Lots and lots of theists and Christians accept the evolutionary explanations for the current diversity of life without much problem - it's only a small subset of fundamentalist and evangelical Christians who have much of a problem.
Third, Darwin's theory of evolution had nothing to do with "a bang" nor did it have anything to do with the origin of life. That again is a common misconception spread by creationists who simply don't understand anything about evolution (or, if they do, then they are deliberately lying about evolution). The theory of evolution assumes the prior existence of life and describes how that life developed - where life originally came from is a separation question.
If evolution is proven one day, it will cause me to seriuosly reconsider my faith in the christian god. as yet, it is not proven and it does not look likely to be proven, so i am on safe ground.
If proof of evolution (which exists abundantly, demonstrating once again that Martin has never seriously studied the topic) would cause him to stop being a Christian, it can only be because his Christian belief is incredibly thin and weak. It relies, evidently, upon a couple of key ideas which are contrary to reason and contrary to science - thus forcing him to deny reality simply in order to maintain an ineffectual religion.
Why is it that others can be religious and be Christian while also accepting evolutionary theory? Because their religion isn't dependent upon an anti-scientific mindset. They can believe that their god is the ultimate cause of everything without also presuming to know, in detail, how their god went about it all - thus, they can accept the idea that their god could have used evolution. Fundamentalists and evangelicals with weak religious beliefs can't handle that sort of possibility.
"There are no such things as missing links. We might as well quit looking for them."
-- Dr. Austin Clark, biologist at Smithsonian Institue in Washington
What are we to make of this quote? I see many creationists use it, but I never see any references to where it originally came from, thus preventing anyone from checking it out. Without any idea about the context in which it appeared, it's impossible for us to seriously evaluate it - especially when one considers how often creationists take quotes out of context an distort their original meaning.
It should also be noted here that the quote implies that Austin Clark is a biologist at the Smithsonian Institute - but that isn't true. Clark was a curator at the Smithsonian Institute during the first half of the twentieth century. He's been dead for nearly 50 years now. Another common tactic of creationists is to cite scientific sources from 50 or 100 years ago without noting their age and without apparently understanding that science actually progresses - thus, the personal opinions of scientists from those many decades ago don't necessarily hold true today.
Part three of this conversation on evolution, atheism, and religion will appear tomorrow. Part one appeared yesterday.
More selections from the Agnosticism / Atheism Mailbag...
Comments
ok so i have had a lot of discussions about evolution and my opinion remains the same; i know that there is one true God and that He created heaven and earth. How do i know this?? Because the bible tells me so.Its all right there in Genesis. Now as for evolution if we were created through a product of nature than where exactly does our conscience come from or our understanding of right and wrong? i believe that this comes from Gods conviction upon our lives and these days schools have taken out all christian values and teachings and we are left with a much more troubled generation than the last. God spoke us into existence and in that way he gave us meaning and purpose. To think that we simply evolved from a common species is very saddening and makes me wonder how someone can believe such lies and live a fulfilled life. Those so called Christians that believe the evolution theory in fact cannot be christians as they obviously do not believe what the bible says. I believe there are many missing links in the evolution theory such as if we evolved from apes to people than where is the middle stage surely we did not just change one day into human, If what evolution claims is true than it must have taken many millions of years and if this is so than where is the middle stage? what i presume would be the half ape half human stage?? there is none and some apes would still be evolving right so where is the middle stage??? and why are there still apes and not some in the in between stages of the evolution?? would they not all have evolved into humans if we are the dominant species or what do they call it the bi product of such evolution?? That is all i will say on evolution as arguing will not solve any disputes it simply prolongs them. I truly feel that as a Christain we are often condemned by the mistakes of one person. Yes Christians do make mistakes yes they do sin no one said that we didnt but the difference between a christian and a non christian is that we are forgiven for these sins through repentance, we admit our wrongs and take them to God so He can help us. Just because one Christian makes a mistake it does not mean that all are guilty so just remember that when you write a blog about “Christians”. The misquote of one person should not mean the judgement of all. I pray that you will one day fall in the latter category and will see why it is we Jesus loving Christians do the things we do!
Hold it right there. Why do you believe the bible?
ange, the problem with your post is right there in the third line: “because the bible tells me so.” Not everyone believes the bible is true. I surely don’t and never have; the same can be said for atheists and perhaps those of some other religions. The bible is a religious document, not a history book. I’ll take Darwin over an “Alice in Wonderland” fantasy-land book (bible) any day.
Unfortunately, about 30-40% of Americans share the simpleminded and unsophisticated thinking of Ange. America is full of idiots.
Ange, please let us know when your community will be conducting its next stoning. Just curious. Thanks.
Ange, you use the phrase “I believe” over in over in discussing your views of evolution. Can I suggest that instead of just choosing what to “believe” about it, you actually read a biology textbook or study the subject? I think you’ll find that many of your questions are just the result of your own lack of understanding and education on the subject, rather than actual evidence that evolutionary theory is unsound. For instance, I can ask “Well, if gravity is real, why don’t birds just drop out of the sky?” All that a question like this proves is that I’m totally ignorant about physics, it doesn’t mean there are legitimate reasons to suspect that gravity is not real.
Ange Said: (Those so called Christians that believe the evolution theory in fact cannot be christians as they obviously do not believe what the bible says.)
Could it be true????
I hunted around some for that “Dr. Austin Clark” associated with the Smithsonian. I find mention of him in Ellis Yochelson’s biography of C. D. Walcott who headed the Smithsonian in the early 20th century. The particular entry refers to a routine meeting of Walcott and Clark, an invertebrate zoologist, in March 1925, so if the quotation is accurate it’s surely well out of date.
Ange, I think you’re failing to realize that if you had been born in India, you’d most likely be Hindu (a religion 1,500 years older than Christianity by the way) and quoting from the Bhagavad-Gita, the Upanishads, & Rig Veda.
If you were Chinese you might be Buddhist and insisting creation is not a single past event; but an ongoing, repeating process, as read in the Sutras and the Tripitaka.
If you’d been born in Israel, you’d most likely still believe the Genesis story, but not that Newfangled Jesus Testament.
O.K. So, it’s in Genesis. Not a very good argument considering you posted this on the WORLD WIDE web, not to mention an atheism blog. In 2000, Christians made up 33% of the world’s population, and their numbers are declining.* More than half the world doesn’t think the Bible is Holy, or truth. Certainly not the people on this message board.
What makes you think anyone here is going to take you seriously? You show up, quote some scripture, attempt to bash science while only proving your own ignorance on the subject, then never show up again (we’ll see).
Ange, did you know that giraffes haven’t always had long necks? They changed, in order to reach food others couldn’t, and therefore survive. It’s a brilliant adaptation that took place over thousands of years. Evolution.
Since you mentioned him, I challenge you to read Darwin’s work on the finches of the Galápagos Islands. His initial reports eventually lead to the observable fact that over a dozen different species (not varieties) came from a single, separate relative on the South American mainland. I suppose you’d have me believe God came and changed them while no humans were looking (or writing stuff down).
I suggest you expand your horizons and check out a Biology 101 book from the local library. If not that, at least research the creation stories from OTHER religions, past and present. You’ll notice some differences, a lot of similarities, and every one of them is also written in some holy book.
*http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm
To call any one fossil a missing link is using out-of-date terminology because ALL fossils are missing links in one way or other, if only between parents and their offspring.
“Missing link” implies a distinct division between one form of life and another: that one specimen is the bridge between the earlier and the later. I don’t think evolution works that way.
What we really have is a host of transitional fossils showing gradual variance and adaptation over vast time scales, features shared between earlier life forms and features that developed later.
my opinion remains the same; i know that there is one true God and that He created heaven and earth. How do i know this?? Because the bible tells me so. Its all right there in Genesis.
No, you DON’T know. To know something is to be cognizant of the fact of it, a fact being some thing whose existence and/or truth that can be verified according to an established standard of evaluation.
Nothing in the account of Genesis can be verified independently by the scientific method. You lack sufficient evidence to claim any knowledge as to the truth of the Bible; you can only claim knowledge of the truth that there is a book called the Bible, and that it claims thus and such.
What galls me about your fatuous claim is that you state from the outright that this is your opinion, and then you proceed to state your opinion as a fact. Claiming certainty where in fact you have none is called LYING. I believe there’s something in your beloved Bible about that.
Of all the moral iniquities of a Christian (and the religiously devout in general), the deliberate substitution of opinions for facts — and insistence on the absolute truth of same — is one of the most egregious sins.
Ange, your brand of religious unthought is an offense to reason, common sense, and human dignity. Go back to your cave, you offensive, loathsome, lying little troll.
MikeC says about giraffes “They changed, in order to reach food others couldn’t,..” Since we are giving information to a creationist it would be better not to give them the idea that evolution acts towards any goal. Better to say “giraffes with longer necks survived better and passed this characteristic on to their offspring”.
Just for the record, the Roman Catholic Pope declared that after all these many centuries, he has decided that evolution is a product of god. If you might remember Roman Catholics are the origin of most of todays Christians. If he can accept evolution I guess anyone can!