Evil Conflicts with the Existence of God: God Doesn't Care or God Doesn't Exist
Saturday October 11, 2008
Closely associated with taking action that should be considered immoral is the fact that there is so much evil in the world today. If there are any gods, why don't they act to eliminate it? The absence of substantive action against evil would be consistent with the existence of evil or at least indifferent gods, which is not impossible, but few people believe in such gods. Most claim that their gods are loving and powerful; the suffering on Earth makes their existence implausible.
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Thought is the creator of good and evil, and their master.
Deities haven’t a thing to do with it, of course.
OK Austin, Is this it? Is this your strongest argument against the existence of God, the fact that there is evil in the world? The answer is not that difficult at all. The question is, Do you really want to know the reason God has not acted against evil yet? Has any reason ever been explained to you and if it has, are you willing to listen or will you simply continue to argue against all reason? If so, there is no point in argument if nothing satifies your concern.
It’s an adequate argument against the existence of some alleged gods.
If that were the case, then you would have provided it.
What do you believe? That there is a God? There are lots of alleged gods but is there one true God who created all things? If so, does he care? What has he been doing all this time? Are these valid questions for you. Do you want to know the answer? I have an answer but will it simply meet with your disapproval as everything else does that comes across.
About what?
No, I don’t believe in any gods.
No, I don’t.
I expect you have assertions, but thus far you haven’t supported any of your assertions.
I offered to provide you with a viable answer to your questions about why God would allow evil to go on in this world however I do not feel that you really want to know. It’s just more of the same pooh pooh from you so I will sign off here and not bother you again. I pity you. The answers are out there for those who want to know. You obviously do not. Maybe next time someone offers, you won’t be so hardheaded insisting on proof of this and that and showing no genuine desire for truth. If any one else watching this post has a desire for truth, drop a line and we can talk.
So long
If you had any viable answers, nothing stopped you from providing them. Given the fact that you have been repeatedly asked to support your assertions and in every single case refused, it seems unlikely that you had anything to offer in that last case either.
I’m not the one making assertions they can’t or won’t support.
You obviously do not know enough about me to make such arrogant and condescending remarks. If I had been uninterested in answers, I wouldn’t have asked you to support your assertions. If you had been interested in providing answers, it makes no sense that you wouldn’t support your assertions.
That statement only makes sense if “proof” and “truth” are separate things. If you are unable to recognize that a failure to be able to prove or support your claims means that you have failed to arrive at any conclusions reliable enough to call “truth,” this might explain much.
If anyone reading this desires truth, their best bet is to look to people who are able and willing to support their assertions. The absolute last place they should look is to a person who makes assertion after assertion with absolutely no interest in backing any of it up.
If any one else watching this post has a desire for truth, drop a line and we can talk.
I’d like to hear it. I have a feeling it has something to do with free will. But I’m curious to hear something new and original. Phil, to what email should I drop my line?
Phil? I hunger for truth, Phil.
Phil?
For Tom,
We were not created as robots. We were given a free will to think and do as we please. The same is true of spirit creatures. The God of the Bible created spirit creatures and humans with a free will. It was His desire of course that they choose to be like Him and imitate His qualities. This did not happen and so a foremost angel turned liar and deceiver and convinced the first woman that she did not need God in her life. This is outlined in Genesis chapter 3. She in turn persuaded her husband to feel the same and as a result, sin and imperfection entered an otherwise perfect world. Romans 5:12 bears this out. Now, think about this a little. With that original transgression, a challenge was raised to Gods right to be the Universal Sovreign. What would He do? Simply destroy the three opposers? That would not answer the question as to whether He should be the Sovreign or not. So what to do? He had no choice but to allow the opposers time to prove to all spirit and fleshly beings to see for themselves that they cannot govern themselves without Him. Man has been trying all forms of self rule for thousands of years now and all at the prodding of the original deceiver, Satan. Has man succeeded in governing himself? Hardly! Does he need God to do it? What do you think? Democracy has been called the greatest form of human government ever. Does it have the answers? Look around you. Do all countries want democracy? Not really. There is only one solution, a government by God Himself. If you believe at all in the Bible, you no doubt have heard of what has been called the ‘Lords Prayer.’ Christians have been using it for centuries but most do not know what they are praying for. The words themselves tell you, ‘Let your kingdom come, Let your will take place on earth as it is in heaven.’ Christians the world over (some in ignorance) have been praying for this very thing to happen, for God’s kingdom ‘to come on earth.’ When the time arrives for God to act, it will be decisive. There will be no more doubt as to whom has the right to rule over mankind. Man will have tried everything, in fact he already has. His time is up and he has failed miserably to bring peace to the earth. He has gone so far as to ruin the very air we need to breath. Soon this whole earth will be under God’s rule and the ill effects of mans rule will be reversed. Of course that will mean a total destruction of all of mans governments including democracy. This has been described well in the second chapter of the Bible book of Daniel. Especially noteworthy is Daniel 2:44 where it states that, “In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin……. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite.” Don’t tell me that the Bible does not apply to todays world. The most important of Bible prophecies have not been fulfilled yet and they pertain directly to this time period we are living in. This is the express purpose of the God of the Bible; to have a perfect world filled with perfect humans all living in peace and harmony with each other and with all of creation. He is not finished with creation yet. The world is still new in His eyes. Soon it will be the way He purposed it to be. Man at the behest of Satan has been the cause of evil in the earth. In due time it will be remedied and the challange to God’s sovreignty will finally be answered and it will never be raised again.
Tom, you can reach me at bgkidz@netzero.com
Evil is a make believe opposite of good, just as the devil is a make believe opposite of the skygod. There is an “evil” which is experienced by people full of adrenaline and under threat. Other evils are general ideas.
Phil:
Please spare me from that simplistic idiocy of “free will”. In your eyes, then, the tsunamis are the fault of the victims. How much free will did they have? How about Katrina, Ike, the Holocaust, incurable diseases, Darfur, shall I go on? All the fault of these unwitting victims, because of free will?
When will you believers grow up mentally and stop this nonsense? Some loving God, you have. Give me a break! Isn’t it about time to put away your fairy tales and become an adult?
Um, you do know, don’t you, that every generation since Jesus has believed that theirs was the one when God’s kingdom would arrive. How long would you say we should wait before we can safely assume that God’s kingdom is not coming, that the prophecy was bogus? 2000 years not enough? How about 3000? 10,000 maybe? Is there any length of time that would convince you?
Phil,
As a follow-up to Paul Buchman’s post, in his book “The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon” Hal Lindsey predicted that Tribulation and Armageddon were definitely going to happen in the 1980s, i.e., within one generation (based on Matthew 24:34) of the rebirth of Israel in 1948.
The 1980s came and went and Lindsey had to change his story (although it did nt prevent him from getting rich from his bestseller). Suddenly a Biblical generation was no longer 30-40 years but as long as 100 years, and the trigger event might not have been the creation of the state of Israel after all. So why should we now believe Lindsey’s and other evangelist preacher’s revised predictions?
As far as God and evil are concerned, read Bart Ehrman’s book “God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question - Why we Suffer.” Bart is a distinguished professor in religious studies at the University of North Carolina. He essentially lost his faith as he was not able to find a satisfactory answer to the important question of evil. In the book you will find a rebuttal to all your arguments and much more.
Phil, how did you escape the asylum?
Most claim that their gods are loving and powerful; the suffering on Earth makes their existence implausible.
You made this comment Austin…
I do not want to “fight” with you, just simply tell you what i believe since you have told me what you believe.
I believe in ONE God, the only God. The creator of Heaven and Earth. He is loving and powerful, and full of wrath and righteous anger. In fact, i believe that everyone human on earth was created in his image, male and female. If you ever decide to skim through the bible, check out the Old Testament and then tell me if God does not have anger towards evil. Ever read the story about Noah’s Ark? Tell me why God decided to destroy all human life except Noah and his family. Because of the earths evil, read it and you will see.
Maybe you have heard of when Moses crosses the red sea, an army was chasing Moses and all the Egyptian slaves and God closes the sea on al the army that was chasing him, and yes they all died. And it also says in the bible that God is going to return to earth and for all who have believed in him he is going to take them to live in Heaven for ALL ETERNITY, and for those who chose to think that God (Jesus) was not the way, they will spent ETERNITY in torment, a place called Hell.
Now i am sure you have a lot of arguments, write them down in italics if you want, but think about this.
You believe in no gods, ok fine. There is no other religion or belief in the world that offers such a good and such a bad option as Christianity. I guess your beliefs, which says that you know how it is, so i guess that makes you a god- in a sense. Your own god, so if you count that then you believe there is one god, yourself. And even if you do not admit to it- from an outside perspective it sure looks like that.
Jesus is the way, and i could not finish this without telling you that. One day the earth will be judged for all the evil, but honestly you are not going to be accountable for the world, you are going to be accountable for yourself, that is all my loving and powerful God requires. Not too bad huh? So anyone out there who wants to talk further e-mail me daviddeankeefe@gmail.com same for you Austin
It’s rather arrogant to simply assume that atheists here haven’t read the Bible. Most have; many have read it quite closely. I’ve read it several times, in several translations, and in more than one language.
“Hating” evil isn’t very helpful if you can eliminate even some of it but won’t.
Such an act would itself be monstrously evil.
Only a person completely unfamiliar with other religions would make such a statement.
No, not in any sense.
You don’t know me and have never met me, so you have no basis on which to base such a conclusion. This means that what you are saying isn’t a “perspective” in anything remotely like a legitimate or respect-worthy sense.
If you want to have a substantive, serious, and civil conversation with others, I’d recommend asking them questions first instead of just launching into assumptions and generalizations or treat them as if they fit neatly into the categories that your ideology tells you they should.
Who knows, if you learn that your ideology is wrong about the assumptions about and categorizations of other human beings, who knows what else it might be wrong about.
Sure you could; you just choose not to have a conversation with others without trying to foist your religion off on them.
Even more serious, though, is the fact that you comment here without directly addressing the key issue: the contradiction between a god being all-loving and all-powerful while there is so much suffering and evil on the planet.
I’m quite comfortable being accountable for myself, but not only do I not need any gods to hold me accountable, I am not, in fact, accountable to anyone who has no authority over me. Being all-powerful doesn’t give a god authority but being all-powerful while refusing to do even as much against evil as humans do prevents it from having any moral authority over me.
Of course, there is also the fact that such gods are just fiction characters and have as much authority over anyone as Darth Vader or Mother Goose.
Keefe - You fail to understand that atheists don’t believe in your bible. So every argument you make that stems from it is just so much nonsense. What else you got?
Marc, so short and well put. I do not believe in the bible so anyone who uses it to “justify” his/her belief in god or any other position (especially a political one such as banning same-sex marriage, for example), will automatically lose ANY chance of getting me to agree with him or her.
To me, the bible is a book of fiction, no different from “Alice in Wonderland”. It is a heckuva piece of fiction, but nothing more than fiction. I will believe in god the same day I begin believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
D-Keefe:
When your all loving god snaps his almighty fingers and all evil is erased from the earth, immediately, then you can come back here and state your case. Until then…I cannot be convinced that your invisible sky daddy exists.
I, too, have read both the OT and NT, and all I’ve seen of your god is psychopathic, evil, twisted, ranting made by ignorant story tellers to create fear and guilt. Your loving god would be arrested in the real world as a sociopathic looney!
No loving parent would torture and kill and maim his own children. How discouraging that there are so many that accept this cruel monster as their loving deity.
The horrors recounted in both bibles, not to mention rape, misogyny, child-murder, adultery,etc.,etc., makes me think they should be X-rated as reading material.
As for your Jesus, there are absolutely no, let me repeat that… NO contemporary references at all to him. Explain how someone so famous even in those times, was never, ever even mentioned by any contemporary historian.
He only existed in the imagination of the more ignorant people trying to graft on some explanation for why you should kowtow and look to this Lord who never was real, and who was strictly a compilation of mythological tales almost more ancient than history itself.
Tales dreamed up to control the people, more ignorant than the religious yarn spinners, themselves, preying on the uneducated masses.
The bible is real because it says so and it’s in the book, so it must be true. How ridiculous is that? Sorry! You can’t convince me!
Believe as you will in your mythology, I would much rather read a great novel for enjoyment. At least I know it’s fiction, unlike you bible fanatics. You ought to try some ancient Greek and Roman myths, they’re more interesting.
In my opinion–
No one believes in god. What people believe in is the word of men who claim to be prophets (or at least looked upon as prophets in the present time). Now, I can’t tell you if god (or gods) exist and personally don’t believe that god exists (although there could certainly be a greater force than we know somewhere in the universe). Now, for the sake of argument, let’s assume that there is a god and one true religion. Well, we have a problem, because there are different religions each with their own prophets. How can huMANity know who is a true prophet and who is a fake so far in time from the original events? (And even if we were alive back then, there would still be no perfect way to know the truth of what anyone was saying). We can’t. So most people grow up to follow the relgion that they were born into (yes, there are converts, but these are few by comparison and not enough to keep the religion alive). So the question arises, why would an all-knowing all powerful god allow such a situation to exist where his creation has know way to know what is the truth? No matter how much you believe your religion is true, there is someone else born to a different religion who believes the same thing about his/her own religion with just as strong a conviction. So where does that leave us? After giving this topic a lot of thought and doing some reading, I have come to the conclusion that atheism is the only option that makes sense. If god exists and wanted humans to worship in some particular way and to only believe certain things this information would be presented to us by god in no uncertain terms and probably repeated throughout time so that future generations would know that past generations weren’t just out of their minds.
The Sojourner and anyone else
Actually there are several “contemporary” “secular” references about Jesus.
There was a man named Josephus who was a very important historian in the first century. He was born in A.D. 37 and he wrote most of his four works towards the end of the first century.
He has a book called The Antiquities which was a history of the Jewish people. In his writings he refereed to James, the brother of Jesus, and to Jesus himself. Here is a quote from his book.
“He convened a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought them before a man named James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned.”
There is also a man named Josephus- who wrote a of Jesus in his book the Testimonium Flavianum. Upon its discovery it was considered controversial, but as of late Jewish and Christian scholars both agree it to be authentic. It reads….
” About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. If indeed we ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of the people as accept the truth gladly. He was over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and many countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still not to this day disappeared.”
If you want more read The Verdict of History by Gary Habermas- or read the The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.
A quick Internet search turned up plenty of information that disputes the authenticity of Josephus’ mention of Christ. By the way, it is only a “mention.” Even if it is authentic, why only a mention for the alleged son of god. Hmmm. Anyhow, a mention of Jesus, if authentic, only means that someone by that name lived, and that is all. Nothing more. Anyhow, I’m not interested in debating Jesus as the son of god, yet god himself, etc. I know with every ounce of my being that it is false. Do you also believe that the earth is only about 5-6000 years old?
Keefe:
A check at wikipedia and a few other places, states Josephus was BORN 37 years AFTER Christ supposedly lived. That certainly doesn’t make him a contemporary of Jesus. Was there another Josephus? Also most experts say the Josephus writings seem to have been disproved one way or another. As a matter if fact experts feel that the reference was not written by Josephus at all, but by others entirely, with an agenda. Try again!
There was only one Josephus who was not a contemporary of Jesus; the fact that you are unaware of this undermines your credibility.
The second reference to Jesus is generally considered an interpolation by most scholars. The first reference is considered an interpolation by a smaller number of scholars. So the best that can be offered in terms of “independent” references to Jesus is a single, short, disputed line.
Yet another atheist misunderstands Christianity.
You need to take those Bible verses and Christian authorities in context.
If one person if saved, that is in infinite mercy. That means that if there is one saved person, God is infinitely loving.
Why is evil permitted on earth? Original sin.
Daniel:
The only one misunderstanding is you! If you can believe that your psychopathic, misogynistic, child slaughtering, condemning to hellfire and brimstone god is loving, you are totally without understanding!
Original sin? What utter nonsense; for the trespasses of two ignorant innocents who listened to a talking snake? For that, all of humanity must suffer forever and ever? How ridiculous can it get?
The bible in context? Do you even know what context it was written in? Do you actually know the history of the bible’s development and compilation? Perhaps you should read some real, non fictional books on the subject.
The bible is total fiction, written on a tissue of ancient mythological tales. ATHEISTS are the ones that can’t UNDERSTAND?
Feel free to point to an actual misunderstanding, instead of just alleging that it is there.
Feel free to actually point to where anyone has been misrepresented by taking them out of context, instead of just implying that this has happened.
Sorry, I don’t see the “infinite” in the “mercy” here.
Sorry, how does “original sin” explain the extent of suffering?
I think that when dealing with people like Daniel that we have to understand why he believes. Fear. The fear of “what if.” Despite how implausible the Christian religion is, despite the fact that Jesus-like characters existed prior to Jesus, still, there is that nagging “what if” that people like Daniel deal with and they are afraid of the idea of hell for not believing in Jesus. Of course it’s nonsense, but it takes a very strong person (mentally) to break away from their religious chains. I really don’t care what people want to believe. The problem with Christianity here in the USA is that the Christians want to make their religion the law (as they interpret it), and have everyone live according to their rules (which they probably can’t agree on among themselves anyway). That’s why some of them are so loud. They think it makes them more right.
I just happened to run across this, but thought I’d add some questions and comments to those reading who are athiest (out of curiousity really)…
If you don’t mind my asking, I just wonder if you don’t believe in any God or creator, do you ever wonder what your purpose is for being here? How do you believe you were created? What do you believe happens to you when you die? Also, do you wonder what happens if you’re wrong and you do end up condemned for rejecting salvation? I’ve heard people say the whole “better safe than sorry” thing. What are your takes on that?
I guess to touch on the topic of the thread, I know the reason in my mind that evil exists is because of the ruler of the earth (Satan). We are all given free will. We’re not meant to be like Gods puppets. That wouldn’t be genuine love. Lucifer had free will and he chose to go against God and now he’s better known as Satan, the ruler of the earth. We have free will (as petty as some may think it sounds) and that’s now the will to accept God and the salvation we have through Jesus or we can freely choose not to and we’re at the complete mercy of Satan. This is now Satan’s territory. Evil things will happen to us and around us, and we have to be prepared for it. And we can be… through salvation. God definitely cares about us all because he offered us a solution. He didn’t have to. But He loved us so much he sent His own son to die so we’d have a way out of this problem. With salvation comes the tools we need to get through living on this earth (that we all know is full of evil). All we have to do is accept it and that takes faith. Without faith, of course it sounds crazy and psychotic.
I know athiests don’t believe in the Bible so I’m not sure how an athiest could try to believe God just through words on a page without actually experiencing/feeling Him for yourself. I don’t know if any of you have actually experienced God personally or witnessed his works with your own eyes… but I know if you ever did experience Him first-hand, you’d know without a doubt that He’s real and no amount of words on paper or in a forum could tell you any different.
That’s my take.
)
Happy Friday!
If that can only be the case with God’s permission, that makes God ultimately responsible.
1. Do angels have free will? If not, then it can’t be that important. If so, then clearly it’s possible to have free will and always choose good.
2. Do souls in heaven have free will? If not, then it can’t be that important. If so, then either they always choose good, or there is sin in heaven. If the former, then there’s no reason why that can’t be the case here.
But of course, God didn’t need to send anyone anywhere to die or suffer at all for there to be a solution out of the problem — at least, not unless God is bloodthirsty, crazy, and psychotic.
Crystal, I’d like to know what you think about what I wrote in post #29. Also, what makes your religion more true than someone else’s? Have you studied all of them? I am an atheist and my life has meaning. A lot of it. I am married, have a 3 1/2 year old boy, a great job, and I write study history as an amateur historian who has been published. Right now I am working on a project that will preserve a piece of American history that just might become a very sought after historical resource. I have more history related writing projects on the horizon. Why am I telling you this? Because you think that atheists have nothing to live for. As for how I was created, this question doesn’t really haunt me. I believe in evolution. This presents no problem for me and millions of others. I see Christians, especially evangelical types, as downright crazy (I mean true mental illness).
I cant give you an scientific explanation for why I think my religion is true except by my personal experience and feelings. I belive it to be true. Others may not. God has never NOT followed through for me with any of the promises in the Bible. He has never failed me. I’m sure someone else of another religion could say the same thing. A lot of religions actually have a lot of similarities which makes “religion” such a broad word. But what I believe works for me. It’s good enough for me. It satisfies my life so I don’t feel a desire to seek something else when what I have isn’t broken. Before I knew God, I was seeking something. I found Jesus and I felt fulfilled. Simple as that.
All of the things you’re accomplishing in life are amazing. Congratulations on that! I mean that sincerely. I don’t think athiests have nothing to live for. I never said that. I asked what they think because I don’t know. I also believe in evolution. Creatures do change. Survival of the fittest is very true. But I don’t think it’s the same for humans. I dont belive I evolved from a primate. I believe I was designed specifically the way I am, in the image of God. I think conception, pregnancy and the birth of a child is one of God’s amazing marvels. As intricate and detailed as every little function is… I just can’t believe that it all happened by accident.
I am an evangelic Christian and before I started serving God, I thought it all a bit odd too. I was never an athiest though. But I just accepted it and believed it, and God proved Himself to me. From that alone and all my experiences up to now, I know God is real.
I guess part of me just ponders why we’re stubborn (I mean everyone, athiests, Christians, Jews, etc) and try so hard to get an answer to why or how, instead of just accepting that it is the way it is, because God is God and He does things we can never fully understand. I think we all make everything harder than it has to be when we could walk a little lighter and live more freely if we didn’t try to know every detail, just trust that God knows what he’s doing.
I was wondering, I know you don’t believe the Bible but for instance, when we all end up in our final destination (Heaven or hell), and the things of the Earth are gone and worth nothing, what are your accomplishments while you’re here gaining you? I’m not at all demeaning them. We all have lives and aspirations outside of our religion. But for believers, we know there’s also things we are called to do here that prosper us spiritually and build up our wealth in heaven. Is there more after you’re gone and no longer writing? I asked in my original post what athiests believe happen to them when they die, but I don’t think anyone answered. I guess this goes along with that…
Thanks for the comments
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Crystal,
From reading your last post I see that you have found something that works for you. As an atheist, I have done the same thing. You have a personal need to concern yourself with what happens after you die and your religion fills that void. I don’t know what happens. Very possibly nothing happens. It’s over, done with. Anyhow, your religion apparently makes you feel good. Fine. But that’s where it should be left. For instance, religion needs to stay out of government.
Now about TRUTH. What you believe is true for you but not true for everybody, therefore it is not a universal truth. Please understand this. Everyone agrees that 1+1=2. As a matter of fact, everything around us is built upon that simple premise. If some carpenter came along and offered to build you a house and said, “Oh, by the way, 1+1=3,” would you step foot in that house? So everyone agrees on this. TVs, airplanes, the computer, everything works because 1+1 truly does equal 2. Now, when it comes to religion (or lack thereof), there is no universal agreement and no universal truth. Therefore, it is not a truth. It is only a belief. Which brings us back to why we must have separation of church and state. Now you might think, well, even if you don’t believe in Jesus, poor you when you die. Well, that is the sickness that Christians have and there’s really nothing atheists can do about it. Christianity is a fear based religion. Believe in Jesus or go to hell. This is downright insane. Let me ask you something. Do you think that an all knowing, all powerful god (should one exist) would have created the Old Testament only to replace it with something else? That doesn’t appear to be very all-knowing. And listen to this example: There is an Orthodox Jewish couple who has a baby boy. This boy grows up in the Orthodox Jewish religion. This is all he knows. As an adult he naturally learns that there are other religions, including Christianity, but still, he was raised Orthodox Jewish, it is what he has been steeped in and it is what he shall remain. Now according to Christianity, he is going to hell. Why, because he couldn’t turn his back on what he grew up believing, what his parents taught him, just because he heard about Jesus. For him, the Jesus story just isn’t true. Simple as that. So do you think this sounds like a really good plan by god? Think about all the babies born everyday to religions (or no religion) around the world who are doomed to hell just because they can’t see YOUR truth. Nice god you believe in. Let me ask you, let’s assume for a second that god is real, how should people know who is a real prophet and who is a fake prophet? Certainly god can see the problem we are having and would straighten out this mess. Of course, you will make excuses on why god doesn’t do this, but it amounts to nothing. You’re no smarter than anyone else and don’t hold any truth greater than anyone else’s. You choose to believe in it, you need to believe in it, whatever the case may be, but don’t confuse what you believe for some universal truth that hundreds of millions disagree with you about.
It does work for me and it does make me feel whole, but it’s deeper than that…
I understand feeling the need to prove God. If 1+1=2, what’s the equation that explains people being healed… among other miracles. God is bigger than some equation. I saw a video called The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. It was very resourceful. Have you seen any of this material? He was an athiest and a lawyer and began to research Christianity and prove it wrong, but he ended up finding it to be true. I doubt you’ll run out and watch it, but I recommend it. lol No one can ever comprehend God or why He does things the way He does. Sure we can think He’s able to wave his hand and just wipe out all evil, and make everything perfect and nice… but for whatever reason, it’s not His method. Who are we to question the way He wants to do things? He made us. (as I believe) I can’t make a human. I can’t make a planet and have it sustain life… why would we know how to run the world better than God?
I dont believe Christianity to be fear based at all. It’s need based. We need God. We were designed (as the Bible says) to be in complete connection with him and in his presence… until Adam and Eve sinned. They got the stone rolling for all mankind. Sin seperates us from God. We lost that connection thanks to them. It’s their fault we’re doomed to hell (and satans for tempting them away). He’s offered us a way to get that back and save us from hell though. But we still have free will and we have to want that relationship with him. But if you haven’t given your heart to Jesus, then it still belongs to the devil. And yes, on judgement day He’ll say “I don’t know you.” As for the boy and anyone else who has been told of Jesus, they are considered as having heard the truth and had the opportunity to accept Him and didn’t pursue it. He is merciful and if someone dies and never heard about who Jesus is, they will be accepted to heaven. The Bible says Jesus will not return until everyone has been told of Him. He’s giving us all a chance.
About prophets, the Bibles tells you the characteristics and we’re to test everything and discard what isn’t good. When you’re saved you have the Holy Spirit living within you that helps you discern things like that. If you’re spirit is not connected to God, you can’t expect to understand spiritual things such as this.
Yes, it is my free will of choice to believe in Jesus. Sometimes I dont see why someone wouldn’t want the benefits of knowing God? Would it really make life worse? And you can’t say I’m confused, because anyone with a faith of any kind can say the same of athiests or opposing religions.
Be back tomorrow night. I need to get to bed. Busy day tomorrow!
No need to continue this. But still, I will type the following. You believe in god, but how this equates to the whole Jesus story and somehow makes your religion true is quite the illogical leap. If you told me you believe in some kind of creator and left it at that, I’d say fine. But you buy into this other nonsense. Again, there’s really no need to continue this. You can respond but I won’t. We are who we are and some internet chat isn’t going to change that.
I completely agree. I enjoy sharing views and learning what others believe. I’m not here to change anyone… just offer another perspective. Afterall, that’s why this post is here, because someones looking for answers.
Thanks!
The issue isn’t about God nor can we put all the blame on the devil. This real issue is ourselves! Instead of sitting back and complaining, why don’t we go outside and do something about it! The real issue is not if “God” really cares, the issue is if we really care.
We chose to be evil and sin (which in essence is to kill “God” within us and “play God”). People who do this may even claim to be doing “God’s work” by controlling people out of fear or flattery, but they are liars because they have no control of themselves. People who try to control others have no control of themselves.
Its unfortunate that many Christians control people with lies about death and hellfire. Then they flatter you with the idea that you will be in heaven if you say you believe in their Jesus who gives you nice things and you can pretend sin and death doesn’t exist.
The bible actually considers death to be a dreamless sleep, hell (sheol/hades) is the grave, and the fiery hell (Gehenna) is an event in which fire comes down from heaven, it’s not a place of eternal torment. Hellfire causes permanent death of the soul (a physical living and breathing being). The soul’s death penalty is due to the slavery of sin. The purpose of Jesus was to free us from the penalty and slavery of sin. That doesn’t mean that there will be no temptations and trials in life.
The real Jesus is not about pretending your sin problems don’t exist and praying to do and get what ever you want. The REAL Jesus has you admit your flaws and weaknesses, pray to have Him change your heart, and to do only His will. Grace (the sacrifice of Jesus) was intended to turn you away from sin, not to give you a right to sin. Remember, sin means you want to kill God (the life source) from yourself and from everyone else (thus spiritually killing yourself and everyone in the process).
Stop fighting God and surrender. Let go of your grudges. There are many things in the bible that are difficult to understand at first glance, but with patience and an open mind, you can get over it.
RR–The only problem with everything you wrote is that the Christian religion is false and Jesus is not a god, but a man-made invention. Crystal could not answer what I wrote in post number 34. Can you?
Marc:If you sincerly want truthful answers to your questions you can find them here. http://www.realtruth.org/archive.html Most believe that God is trying to save the world now! This thinking goes something like this: God and the devil are at war over the fate of mankind. This is seen as a desperate struggle between good and evil—God and Satan.
Let’s put this another way: Is today the only opportunity for all human beings to choose or to reject Christianity? Must all people “decide now” to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior? Is this what the Bible teaches? The answer is an emphatic NO!
RT - Don’t you find it amazing that the coincidence between what you believe in and the truth just happen to be the same. Simply amazing. Lucky you. To think that most people on this planet don’t know of your truth. How sad for all those people, but how great for you.
Most… who? People in the world? Americans? Who?
So, your god isn’t omnipotent, didn’t create the world, and didn’t create Satan? That sounds like a Gnostic dualism in which “god” is a good being who is opposed by an equally powerful evil being.
This not only is not orthodox Christiainity, but it is in fact an old heresy which people were once killed over. It also isn’t an ideology which can be attributed to “most” people anywhere that I know of.
Wow!!!! Ok marc I am sorry for thinking you were really searching for truthful answers to your questions. I just wanted to leave you a link where you could get those answers. Again I am sorry I did not mean to offend you. As for you Austin I did not leave a comment to start an arguement.I was just trying to help someone I thought wanted some truthful answers about God.I realize now I should not of done that. As to your questions if you want answers to them by all means please go to the link I provided and you will find them.
RT, nice try. As an atheist I believe your religious texts were written by man. Other than the fact that you WANT your BELIEFS to be true, what makes you think your book is so true? How can you be so sure? Let me guess. You just feel it. I tell you what. If your religion is true and you have proof, take all other religions to court. Yes, court. Go before a judge and demonstrate that every other religion is false and that atheists are wrong and that your religion is right.
Since when does asking questions or pointing out flaws constitute an “argument”?
And was this supposed to somehow mean that no one would or should ask questions or critique your assertions?
You’re free to post your opinions, but you will be expected to support your claims.
Skimming through the list of articles, I didn’t see anything which clearly addressed my questions. If you know for sure that the answers are there, though, you shouldn’t have a problem posting direct links.
Or just offering your own, independent defense of your claims.
The ultimate truth is a principle of life called grace. You don’t have to be known as a “Christian” to understand grace and live by grace. Jesus Christ was a literal personification of grace (God’s word became flesh), but just because you failed to accept His identity as a man who walked this Earth (or you never heard of Him) does not automatically condemn you to be devoured by hellfire from heaven (assuming there is a resurrection of the dead).
Though God’s law condemns all soul to death (because all have sinned, having no faith in God), He taught grace, loving in spite of one’s feelings, loving without seeking love in return. The sacrifice of the Lamb of God (Christ) shows boundless grace (even unto His own death) and exposes how barbaric sin really is. The keeping of God’s law is not intended to earn God’s love, but instead it’s a response to His love.
Grace is intended to motivate others to admit their sin to God (confession) and turn from sin (repentance). We however have the choice to reject grace and believe in ourselves as if we were gods. Many Christians and Non-Christians inevitably do this by judging and condemning those who don’t apparently follow certain life principles (truth) and then in flattery praise those who do follow them.
Faith in grace is the best “religion” and those who live by grace are true “believers”. It’s unfortunate that many (even Christians) have created a “God” in their own image (a God without grace). Many claim to worship “God” following teaching of men, but are really worshiping themselves. The higher one esteems self, the less one will esteem grace. Every life has the infinite value of grace, which makes the effort of seeking self-worth a vain endeavor. Many get so carried away in doing and saying many things, you may lose focus on who they serve and fail to listen. When this happens, people end up praying to take themselves out of a mess that they could have avoided otherwise. Prayer is intended for us to change our minds, not to change God’s mind.
Many in the world teach survival of the fittest, living off other people’s misery, and conforming to a system of individualistic tyranny. Many want power to control others instead of themselves, failing to see that the greatest power of all is grace (self-denying love). Many want to sense a miracle or see a sign of God before they repent, but the greatest miracle or sign of God is the unwavering faith in grace (in spite of how you feel). Our potential to change will never genuinely occur if we don’t live by grace, believing that our life is borrowed. The simplest sign of God’s grace is the breath we breathe.
Grace be with you all!
Of course, if there if Jesus wasn’t Christ, the Son of God and there is no resurrection of the dead, then we will all die in our sins and our faith in grace is in vain. The anti-Christ’s answer to the the problem of sin and death is that sin and death doesn’t really exist.
correction to what I previouisly said about Jesus and the resurretion:
If grace didn’t exist, not only would there be no resurrection, but the life we live now wouldn’t exist either.
If you know you exist then you have God spirit, the source of all life is God spirit. Die to your human body self to get an instant God truth lesson. Someone calling themself an atheist is the ultimate delusion of truth denial.
Prove it.
RR - You just can’t seem to understand. You want others to live according to something that you believe in. I don’t (and millions of others don’t) believe in what you believe in. To me, you’re just delusional. I can see how the concept of life and the universe can lead someone to believe it was all created. Again, I can understand someone thinking this. However, THERE IS NO REASON AT ALL to connect this concept to ANY ORGANIZED RELIGION known to man, including the religion you believe in. NONE AT ALL. All religious texts were written by man. There is no such thing as god-given prophecy. There is no reason for you to believe in Christianity as opposed to any other religion, other than reason of birth, fear of the claim you’ll go to hell. The Jesus story is a story. That is all. It’s not even an original story. People like you are scary and that’s why religion is so evil. As an atheist I don’t care what you believe in, so long as you keep it to yourself. But Christians have this sickness that they must save others and that the government must be run according to Christian values. Just what the hell are those values? It just so happens that whatever Christians want happens to be what God wants. One of the classic examples is Manifest Destiny. You know, when god put all those Indians here so the Christians can have firing practice. So this all powerful god you believe in and must also know the future give the Old Testament only to change his/her mind and give a New Testament, and as the Muslims will tell you, still another book. Oh, but there book is false and yours is true. Yeah. Do you believe the earth is 5-6000 years old? And questions from my earlier posts remain unanswered. Thanks for your time, but something tells me that I am wasting mine.
You kids are all just “Mr/Ms know-it-alls”. When is the last time a scientist opened his mouth in your forum. “You may not be able to handle all of the truth at once. I mean…I don’t want to overload yalls donkeys.
Scientist are like democrats…half of them don’t believe in God…and the believers are letting the all the none believers do all the talking.
Who’s ready for a little TRUTH 101?
Sorry…letting all the non-believers do all the talking. I’ll better proof read next time…maybe later today.
Ah, Bozo the clown has entered the fray. The teasing of truth but the reality of, deep down, you don’t know a solitary thing more on this issue than me. And two posts without anything being said. Yep. I see your truth.
Marc wrote:
Just what the hell are those values? It just so happens that whatever Christians want happens to be what God wants.
Exactamundo. Religion is a mirror and God is an ink blot. Every religious person has talked to God and found, to their utter amazement and surprise, that God has the exact same opinions as they do. They then feel that their opinion has ultimate and divine authority behind it.
Can you imagine a more humble position? Such humility, you can’t help but be impressed.
RR: and others of his ilk…
By accident of birth, you were born into a construct that BELIEVES Jesus Christ is the son of God, and the whole mythology surrounding it, the OT, the NT. The BELIEF in grace, redemption, dying for our sins, etc., etc. ad infinitum, more nebulous constructing.
If you had been born in another time or place, it could have been Ra, Buddha, Zeus, Allah; a pantheon of gods, goddesses and BELIEFS. Your construct may have included virgin sacrifices or cannibalism.
All of these BELIEVERS were sure they had the truth and theirs was the only way. The self same way you feel right now. The key here, I think is that old devil (if you will excuse the expression)B-E-L-I-E-F.
If I BELIEVE that I have an invisible pink unicorn in my living room, who can prove to me that I don’t? That is the identical position you are taking with your BELIEF. Faith can move mountains, they say. Try praying away Mt. Ranier or the Alps, sometime.
How about praying away cancer or praying for a sudden cessation of all wars and evil and for peace on this earth? Nothing has changed in centuries, with all this piety and love and grace and BELIEF. When can we see that happening? The End Times? Really? You BELIEVE that?
Perhaps you and your BELIEVERS should be more concerned with now, rather than Armageddon and the “Rapture”. The energy wasted in waiting for Godot . . .or Jesus, to come back and sweep you away, could have been much more beneficial curing horrible diseases or injustices in this world, not waiting to be spirited off to the next one.
To the last two posters. Thank you. There is some sanity in this world.
MET 101 is now in session. We’ll start with role call…Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Now Then, time to win Ben Steins money. By the way God will take role again at the end of the second earth age.
Let’s start rreeaall simple with truth that elementary level science brings forth. By the way, being a weatherman is a very humbling profession.
In the begining! First came heaven and earth…seems reasonable. Think back…just 500 years ago the earth was flat. Thank God nobody important sailed over the edge. Let’s go back much farther in time. The earth “became” void from the Hebrew transliteration. Gen. 1:2…How? Enter Chicxulub’s meteor. (Note I’m and expert witness in this field… with a degree in meteorology.) This followed by nuclear winter! Another Matthew Broderick movie. WarGames! (in 1983, he got a “Day Off” in 1986) Got the picture…darkness was upon the face of the earth. Hello Mr Dino et al, how was your stay? Will you all be checking out today? Looks like it.
“The spirit of the LORD hovered over the waters”. Note to self! The earth is three fourths water. Clearly! Have you ever seen a globe in a library.
I’m not sure what percentage cimps are, but homo sapiens (MAN) are…what do know…three fourths water too…plus iron, minerals, calcium and nearly 2% soul. Hmmn! OK! Correlation? Yes, maybe. Lets get you kids Through 101 first, thats in a 200 and two 300 level courses. Again, I don’t want to overload your donkeys. You might drop out.
OK, so God moves upon the face of the waters…and said “Let there be light”…again because remember the earth became void…The big bang is so much farther back. Anyway this time, God divided the light into…DAY and darkness he called Night. Day one. note the caps…400 level course.
“Let there be a firmament”…or atmosphere in the midst of the waters and “let it divide the waters from the waters”. Some above and some below…seems reasonable…division. Heaven is abovem and well: Is there ever anything new under the sun. Certainly not yet…Day two ends.
By the way for you time managers…a day to the Lord is AS a 1000 years. II Peter 2:8 It could even be as a million years…irrelevant as God is outside of time. “Thank you Mr. Data”, We can all see God doesn’t need a Rolex, He can look at the earth like it’s a second hand.
Now then, God speaking of course…”Let the waters under heaven”…Where? on earth…hey you kids in the back…wake up! “Under heaven be gathered together in one place”. Gondwanaland! A single super continent…continental drift insues per science and puzzlers around the world.
And it was so. land and sea…followed by grass, herbs and fruit trees which all have seeds. Next years crop…and our current day’s oil and natural gas. Day three out.
Next up, the lights or stars and sun and moon. Hey you kids put your clothes back on please! The full moon is still weeks away. OK enter seasons, days and years. God is ON, not OF the clock, he is just making the first one. OOhh and Eco driven…like the Citizen watch…just shake it up every once in while…”more drifting”. And isn’t that some “Green” thinking…no batteries. You Geaux God! Day four out.
OK time for some more meteorology. Plants and more plants big ones too…merryily making oxygen…some of the atoms are broken free by ligthning…no thuderstorms yet, but volcanoes can produce a static charges from the particulates in the gaseous mixture of air such as it was. Not unlike rubbing your feet on the carpet and touching your little brother. Lightning/electricity which by the way is 50,000 degrees of plasma heat…5 times hotter than the sun. Yeah that ough to do it…these free ions then link to form Ozone…O2 + O1 = O3. Get ready here come the birds and the fish…UV is still being filtered by the denser media…water at this point. You think we’ve got an ozone hole today. This was some seriously cheap sunglasses. As time goes by and more and more O3 forms…now here comes all this life in the water and hey look, its Muddy, the mud skipper. Cute! He’s got little claws on his fins. Oh wait am I going too fast. Hollywood interjects…in fact.
I rather like Q’s rhetoric…”Look Jean Luc, out of the primortial ooz, a spark…and look the first amino acids.” Science claims we emerged from water and so does God. “Let it (the firmament) divide the waters from the waters”. (Gen 1:6) Moses wrote this stuff down well back in the day. Did he guess all this? I think not, talk about the chance of something happening… chew on that.
And God said, “Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that have life, and fowl that may fly above the earth”, in the air. p s Not so cold anymore, except at the poles. Enter whales and all fishes…every living marine creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind and all birds after their kind and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters of the sea, and let the fowl multiply in the earth”. Day five out.
Six day creation…animals and man. This is a big section that starts with our friend Muddy. Don’t forget your homework. Read Genesis chapter One, verses 1 - 23. Next time we will get into day 6, verses 24 - 31.
In review, science and God are both working out of the miracle of H2O. And yes science calls it a miracle solvent.
Extra credit…Truth be told, all of this is refering only to the second earth age. The first earth age was of the dinosaurs.
See you kids tomorrow. Overnight…
any questions…ask Bill Nye, the science guy or just goggle it.
ps Your text book for the next four years will be the world’s number one seller.
weatherman… Did you get your degree from a crackerjacks box or the back of Creem Magazine?
“…a day to the Lord is AS a 1000 years.”
So, what, he couldn’t just say, “1000 years”? He had to say “a day”? Does he not know the difference? Is he linguistically challenged?
“It was kinda like a day, only a really long day, like, you know, like the longest day ever, oh, what’s the word I’m looking for?”
Thanks anyway weatherman, I appreciate the offer, but I really don’t need your degree in stupidity.
“In the beginning there were two giant match sticks in the sky. The match sticks came together and ignited and the flame became the sun and the sticks splintered and the splinters became the earth and the moon and the planets.”
See, anybody can make up some creation story if evidence based reality is not required.
The existence of evil does not negate the existence of God. Good cannot exist without evil, otherwise everything would be flat and there would be no growth. God is good, Satan is evil. We as humans have free agency and we can choose good or evil. If God did not give us free agency and forced us all to be “good” then there would be no point to this life at all.
Therefore, God cannot exist without Satan?
So, if God cannot choose to be good, then there is no point to God existed; if God cannot choose to be good, then God does not have free agency.
I used to think evil was like dracula with a cape and sucking blood. Now I think evil is more like a spoiled frat boy setting bums on fire in the park. These types always start with some personal insults and bogus accusations. It isn’t just to get a good argument started. It is to show contempt for argument itself.
I think what these religious posters have demonstrated is that evil starts with the inability to ask questions. Simple questions. Basic questions. Once people can no longer stone you to death for disagreeing with them, it is incumbent upon all decent, intelligent, and moral people to start asking questions. Unfortunately, each of the theists above contributes to the evil in the world by not asking questions.
Hey there Weatherman do I sense the irony?
Come on Marc and John K.
Surely you can see the man is very cleverly pulling the middle leg of believers.
If this is not a very well done piece of satirical analogy then I am sorely disappointed, or alternatively I am seeing only what I want to. Which is a bit like the Fundies on Sundays.
tomedgar@halenet.com.au
And yes science calls it a miracle solvent. — weatherman on October 23, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Ron Popeil might call it that, but scientists call it the universal solvent.
If you don’t mind my asking, I just wonder if you don’t believe in any God or creator, do you ever wonder what your purpose is for being here?
Life is it’s own purpose.
>>How do you believe you were created?
My parents had sex.
>>What do you believe happens to you when you die?
You die. That’s it. Lights out.
>>Also, do you wonder what happens if you’re wrong and you do end up condemned for rejecting salvation?
And do you wonder what happens if YOU are wrong and you do end up condemned for rejecting Allah?
>>I’ve heard people say the whole “better safe than sorry” thing. What are your takes on that?
Don’t you have to be sincere for that salvation bit to work? Would’t an all-knowing god be able to see right through that ruse?
GeckoRoamin,
And do you wonder what happens if YOU are wrong and you do end up condemned for rejecting Allah?
Actually, Moslems believe in and worship (or at least profess to believe in and worship) the same god as the Christians and Jews. Thus, better than saying:
‘Do you wonder what happens if YOU are wrong and you do end up condemned for rejecting Allah?’
would be to say something more along the lines of:
‘Do you wonder what happens if you persist in putting forth the blasphemous notion that Jesus of Nazareth, a prophet - a great prophet but a mere prophet, nonetheless - is a manifestation of God, or even that any mere human could be a manifestation of God, for that matter, and you belatedly realise just how wrong you have been? Do you ever wonder what the consequences will be if you persist in the sinful, idolatrous practice of worshipping Jesus as God and, come death and divine judgement, you realise what a hell of a mistake (pun intended) you have made? The Q’uran is very clear on these matters. It clearly states that ‘Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son’ (Q’uran 4: 171) and that ‘(God) begets not, nor is He begotten’ (Quran 112: 3). The Q’uran also spells out the consequences for you blasphemers and idolaters who call yourselves Christians. Oh, but of course, you won’t listen to the Q’uran, preferring instead to defer to the Bible, which is a perversion of the True Word of God, so when you are burning in eternal hellfire for your blasphemous idolatry, see if I care. It’s what you deserve for refusing to heed the Q’uran’s clear warnings.’
I haven’t studied too too much into depth about the Quran, but the New Testament was written within a closer time period of the actual life of Jesus versus the Quran which came hundreds of years after Jesus. Personally, when comparing the two religions, that makes me trust the Bible over the Quran.
To touch back a bit on the original topic… I’m curious to know where do athiests think good and evil comes from? Where does the right vs wrong standard orginate? If you agree murder is wrong… why is it wrong to you? By what standards do athiests live by?
And through reading the posts, there are a lot of arguments for and against God as well as multiple religions… and even if I can’t prove to anyone that God does exist, I haven’t read anything that proves to me he doesnt. Someone said something about, if I say there’s a unicorn in my room, how can you prove to me there’s isn’t?… That’s exactly right. If I believe my God is real, no one can prove to me He isn’t. Just as if you believe God is not real, no one can prove to you He is.
And if for just a moment we all agree there IS a God, why do we think we should be able to understand EVERY little detail? We obviously aren’t a God, therefore we can’t understand the vastness of one.
I can’t believe I allowed myself to waste any time reading this.
How about this-
rather than vainly and futilely combating each other’s unprovable beliefs and shaming the memories of theologians and philosophers who’ve already tackled all of these questions (in far less hackneyed form), you all get away from your keyboards (like I’m about to in just a moment) and take a breath of fresh air and smile at someone and thank God, Fate,the Universe or Lady Luck (or Walter Kauffman for his Nietzsche translations) and go about your respective days: the Christian secure in his/her salvation and the Atheist secure in his/her intellectual superiority. There is nothing to be gained here, but there is plenty of time to be lost. Enjoy the world and be kind to others.
Calling people delusional and ridiculing them doesn’t make you more rational by the way, it just makes you a jerk.
Even if it’s true? You didn’t seem to mind doing effectively the same thing yourself. You may not have used those words, but such thoughts were unmistakably in mind.
Evil comes from sociopaths, at least as far as I’m concerned. Nature may ring down the curtain in cruel ways, but it is sociopaths who use their knowledge of human nature to cast their force and fraud spells over us. Organized religion uses the myth of an all powerful and all good God as a way of capitalizing on the fight/flight instincts that we all have. It is the ultimate secret police as conceived by sociopaths.
Crystal wrote:
“I’m curious to know where do athiests think good and evil comes from?”
Isaiah 45:7 —
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Good and evil don’t come from anywhere. They are within ourselves. “Good” is the definition of behaviour and attitudes which come from respecting ourselves and other people. Evil comes from attitudes where we consider only ourselves and have a total disregard of other people, their rights and feelings. All attitudes good and bad are products of our intelligence. Animals don’t have the intelligence to make decisions so don’t have morality values.
Individuals are influenced by others. As a race we learn by experience and share those experiences thereby improving our morality unfortunately some learn how to be more immoral. Our attitudes to the mentally ill are vastly different from what they were 200 years ago because of what we have learned from those who study mental illness. The bible also has an input in contributing to morality. Jesus was probably well ahead of his time in his attitudes to disadvantaged people. It must be remembered those values attributed to Jesus were basically Jewish values restated.
From day one we have been pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Considering “good” to come from God makes me wonder why God’s institution sank to the level of the atrocities committed during the crusades and the Inquisition. From what I read here God’s institution has gone from being a promoter of good human values to a position of power enforcing it’s views on people.
Being an atheist doesn’t mean you can’t have values. It is just that they come from intelligence and experience not from an ancient holy book.
weatherman, your ranting post about “science class 101″ is possibly the most retarted thing I have ever heard. What you said proves what exactly? Go back to community college and retake “meteorology 101″ again. That might be too much though, just start with a primer with little pop-up pictures.
weatherman, your ranting post about “science class 101″ is possibly the most retarted thing I have ever heard. — centerbound on November 11, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Um. You spelled “retarded” wrong.
That’s the most — oh, never mind.
Retarted might mean “to make tart again”.
There are many reasons why God did not eliminate evil, but here, for the sake of brevity, I would like to discss one.
Is it not possible that God did not eliminate evil so that people would learn to appreciate joy?
If you are inflicated with pain, then the period without pain seems so sweet. But with the passage of time that sweetness dies for you have not tasted pain, and you have become accustomed to the sweeteness which is has thus become dull.
After suffering evil in this world, the patient will have so much more joy in heaven when he recalls his difficult experiences, as opposed to those who will just be placed in heaven without ever stepping on this earth.
When you do not need to urinate you will feel normal. But when you have to hold your urine for hours you feel pain. And then comes the sweet joy of relieving yourself.
When you have food on the table, your forget the meaning of hunger. But when you starve for days, is not that very dry loaf of bread a treat let alone the roasted lamb!
I don’t know. Please explain how the rape and murder of a child helps me appreciate joy. Just as important, please explain how I couldn’t appreciate joy just as much with a little bit less evil in the world - for example, with children just being raped but not murdered.
“Is it not possible that God did not eliminate evil so that people would learn to appreciate joy?”
I don’t have to eat sh*t to know that I love chocolate.