Mailbag: Cowardly Site
Subject: Judaism
I'm very glad, Mr. Kline, that you were to cowardly to put anything negative about the jewish religion on your blasted website; you cocky son of a ****. You have done an excellent job of demeaning many other religions and were quite intellingent to realize that writing anything about judaism would **** YOU IN THE ****.
Well, Jack isn't antisemitic, is he? Of course, I have criticized Judaism - I've written critiques of Jewish extremists in Israel, for example. I've also written critiques of the Bible, which of course collects some Jewish scriptures.
It is true that I don't write as much about Judaism as I do about some other religions because, quite frankly, Jews are generally content with letting other people not be Jews. They don't make a public case to try and get others to agree with them, so I don't spend much time trying to argue that they are wrong. There are lots of beliefs that people have that I might argue against if they tried to make a public case for them. Since they don't, then I don't bother with it.
I love seeing **** like you prey upon the weaker religions with less representation. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were hired, but then again, maybe you are. It's good you realize that your website would be shut down in a flash, not to mention your life as you know, if you were to attempt to make similar claims about Judaism. Don't even think about doing such a thing. Thanks for being such a worthless ****.
This is very strange - Jack seems to recognize that I critique religions like Christianity and Islam, but since when did those become "weaker religions with less representation?" Normally I might think that he is referring to religions like Judaism, but he just got done complaining (incorrectly) about how I don't critique Judaism. Jack is very confused. Not surprising, since he couldn't even spell my name correctly despite the fact that it appears on every one of the 9000+ pages of this site.
At any rate, I am "hired" - I do get paid some money for this, ultimately based upon the amount of traffic to the site. So I guess Jack doesn't really "know better" after all.
More selections from the Agnosticism / Atheism Mailbag...
Comments
Mr Cline,
I love the way you keep calm and reasonable, in the face of such vitriol. That level-headed lack of violent name-calling passion is something I really admire, and is one of the reasons I come back here frequently.
You can’t please all of the theists all of the time.
It should be obvious that Jack is not Jewish and just trying to stir up controversy. Anyhow, like Austin said, the Jews aren’t in your face proselytizing so there is no need to be in their face telling them that their religion is just as untrue as all the others.
A big difference between the Jews and Christians when it comes to how they handle issues relating to their respective faiths (and I was born Jewish before became an atheist in my youth) is that the Jews take a more defensive position rather than an offensive position. By this I mean the Jews respond to actual attacks or offenses directed at them and which directly impact their lives.
Obvious examples would be hate-based vandalism such as swastikas painted on the property of Jews, or hate-based crimes of physical violence against Jews. Lesser offenses such as unfair parking regulations near synagogues on high holy days compared to those given to non-Jews on their high holy days will result in an outcry.
You don’t generally see Jews trying to impose their religious views on others using the force of government the way Xians do - banning abortion and same-sex marriage are two big examples, restoring public school prayer is a third. The Jews don’t try to get local governments to ban all kids’ soccer games on their sabbath (Saurday) because they should be in synagogue.
I agree with Sarah about your ability to remain calm (at least on the outside) in the face of all the nonsense you receive such as Jack’s email. If you are letting out a big guffaw in private, I would not be surprised!
Austin, I’m curious to know if you report these kind of messages, i.e. containing threats on your life and well-being, to the police. If not, I encourage you to do so. I have seen the threats of theists dismissed when they are serious and actually planning violence. I admire your work, and I’d hate to see you hurt over it.
WOW, Austin…
I didn’t really realize just HOW seriously, and even dangerously, delusional Jack is. This guy is obviously a real certified religious nutjob; and points up the importance of not letting the Fundie F**ks win in the upcoming election.
In other words…
If McLame and his…Annie Oakley-like-gun toting, Mooseburger eating, “speaking in tongues”, snake handling(?), teach Creationism in public school Science courses, anti-choice, anti-contraceptive, Extreme Bible thumping delusional, Right-Wingnut Fundie consort…[take breath here?] win in November…
Say “Bye-Bye” to our Separation of Church and State based Constitution!
“Hello” to Christian Neo-Fascist Nationalism and…
“The United States of Jesus”!
Not, of course, that the Dems are an absolute guarantee against that happening!
Now I ask you guys…Am I being too extreme?
You know something else?
Considering that possible threat…
I’m beginning to really NOT mind so much being an old guy!
This is an odd case of “Fatwa Envy”. Odd in that he’s ranting about Jews and not Muslims…
By “weaker religion” I think he refers to the conspiracy theory that has Jews running the world, their lobbies controlling the government, that kind of thing. It’s typical racist garbage.
Hey Chuck, when I heard about all those things about Sarah Palin, my first thought was, “Mike Huckabee in a dress!” LOL!
Hello Austin. I have very much enjoyed reading your site. I just want to make a few observations about things I have noticed on atheistic websites. There seems to be alot of real hatred towards religious believers, and I mean ALOT. Just look at Chuck’s comments. The next thing I have noticed is the constant punctuation, the appeal to ridicule and the ‘witty wordsmith’ culture that pervades most comments on atheistic websites. It’s condescending, haughty,
insulting…and worrying. However I do see some of the psychology behind it. People who resort to foul and insulting language to attack others they don’t agree with clearly have some kind of insecurity or anxiety. They can’t just agree to disagree..they must convert everyone. Why can’t they rest in their own opinions? Is there doubt deep down inside???
Regardless of what we believe, I think it is important to remember that knowing HOW to argue for or against something is just as important as knowing what to argue. I think Chuck and others if they really care about truth would agree…if they don’t then I have to presume they just enjoy being spiteful.
Steven says:People who resort to foul and insulting language to attack others they don’t agree with clearly have some kind of insecurity or anxiety. They can’t just agree to disagree..they must convert everyone. Why can’t they rest in their own opinions? Is there doubt deep down inside???
Go look in the mirror, Steve. You just might find you’ve described yourself.
Steven:
Perhaps if you believers were less condescending and self-righteous about your religion, we could speak without rankling you. When you insist that if we don’t follow the Lord Jesus, we will burn in hell for all eternity. That certainly isn’t being pleasant.
I personally don’t care what God you believe in, that’s your prerogative. I do care, however, if you insist on forcing him down my throat. I don’t take kindly to being strangled.
I don’t care if you believe in the purple people eater or gray aliens. However I do get irritated when I am told “you will be tortured eternally in hell” if you will not accept our “loving God”. If that’s not insulting, I don’t know what is. That certainly doesn’t sound like the doctrine of love you profess to follow.
We atheists, do not evangelize or force others to accept what we believe. We do not send missionaries to disperse “the word”. No atheist was converted by anyone. They came to their realization through logic and awareness.
You speak of “truth”. Who’s truth? Which truth? Yours? Mine? Who decides? You? Me?
If we are a bit harsh in our judgments, then we are no harsher than those who treat us as poisoners of the innocent. We are the pariahs of this age because we refuse to turn our brains “off” when it comes to logical thinking.
To my mind the believers all suffer from a religious lobotomy to one degree or another. They cannot think rationally about religions at all. They can’t help it if they’re brains have been saturated with believing whatever they are told by their clergy, by their holy books, by their parents. It’s not their fault.
So there is a kind of pity in me for them.
That, however, does not excuse them from doing harm in the name of their god or gods. Nor does it excuse them for the hatred they try to hide for those who are not like them. I have seen such hatred for atheists, spewed from the lips of the “so-called” religious believers.
Some have even cried “Kill them all”! I do not lie, check some of the comments of the “faithful” some time. You will see, I speak the truth. Some of the politicians, even think we shouldn’t be considered as citizens.
I think we have the right to be angry and unpleasant sometimes. At least we don’t think we have the right to commit heinous crimes in the name of our god.
This is not a generalization, but rather a comment on how twisted some people can get in the name of their god. Think of 9/11 or the abortion clinic bombings. The Phelps family also comes to mind. All because of illogical religious conclusions.
All I’m saying, basically, is that religion itself, is flawed, therefore, I am an atheist. There is no question in my mind about atheism, whatsoever.
Steven:
Sojourner covered pretty much everything I wanted to say to you. If I can add one or two things which irritate me about religious folks:
When I hear someone state that some law (i.e. ban abortion, ban same-sex marriage) should be passed because “The bible says so…” or “It is against the will of god…” I get angry. The bible is a religious document, not a governing document (in this country, the USA).
Not everyone believes in the bible. Not everyone believes in god. For religious folks to try to use the power of government to enact laws which are purely religious (and legislate Christian privilege) is terrible, not to mention illegal. As an atheist, I find it threatening, too. Then you religious folks get all annoyed at US atheists when we protest enactment of these laws and being treated as second-class citizens!
Steven…(and my fellow atheists?)
As to my tendency to using somewhat caustic language; the motivation for that comes from a long history of witnessing the mental abuse doled out, in particular, by Christians and Muslims. I was raised from a 1940s childhood by an Irish Catholic mother, and reluctantly converted father (from Lutheranism); sent to the nuns in grammar school, followed by the Christian Brothers in High School, and finally attended and graduated from a Catholic University. I understand the history of religious brainwashing, which has gone on throughout the ages, mostly, practically speaking, unrecognized from generation to generation.
The only reason I EVER believed in a god, was due to the fear and guilt instilled in a developing, totally naive mind.
And the terrifying notion of Eternal Damnation in an endless Hell or even suffering after death in a limited Purgatory was an unquestioned part of that basic programming.
Most of us atheists, I contend, were subjected to that, or a similar style of brainwashing. We were carefully taught to believe, without question or any evidence for such an astounding claim. But…we were NOT taught, or allowed, to ever REALLY think independently…or certainly critically…about anything regarding religious dogmas…thus, in a sense, we were carefully trained to completely, and even neatly, “compartmentalize” our thinking. In other words, we might study Science, even Evolution (at least as a Catholic) but never recognize, with any noticeable awareness, the total lack of legitimate historical, and especially, Scientific evidence for the myriad, and outrageous contradictions presented by such ingrained, brainwashed…albeit Mythical in origin…beliefs.
That kind of serious childhood brainwashing results in the overwhelming number of people, Worldwide, who never escape the effect of such powerful mind control. As the Catholic Jesuit maxim goes:
“Give me a child for for his first seven years and I’ll give you the man”!
I’m speculating now; but I think the Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc. stories were purposely fabricated as additional, albeit temporary, “belief” training exercises. Hey…If a kid will believe in all those; the really serious unproven fantasy of deity belief…is a relative “piece of cake”!
Dropping belief in all those rather trivial exercises, after all, holds no terrifying, attached and necessary punishment. Not so with intentionally dropping the “God” belief. Fear and Guilt, after all, are the most common, favorite, and powerful tools of Religion!
I’m really saying that we’re VERY carefully taught to BELIEVE, but NOT taught to think. The so-called “Age of Reason” is only a kind of metaphorical expression of a ‘possible potential’…left untrained, I maintain, in most people. Training in the Scientific method, and the study of Secular Philosophy may help; but obviously doesn’t guarantee the release from the highly tempered ‘chains’ of religious superstition.
One more point regarding my comments. I only make personal comments, at present, on two favorite atheist Sites; this being one of them. I hardly ever even visit religious Sites, of whatever ilk; never once commenting on any of them; and even on YouTube, I occasionally just read whatever comments accompany the particular video. What I notice, though, is, while atheists may, as Steven noted, sometimes use crude and even caustic, critical language; they’re NEVER condemning or sentencing anyone to Eternal burning in some outrageously vicious, manifestly unjust, Sado-Masochistic…and even psychopathically dreamed up…Hell!
In fact, amongst each other, we atheists are certainly quite rational, considerate, truly compassionate, and some of the kindest and most loving citizens of this Little Blue Dot, Planet Earth!
Steven says:
“It’s condescending, haughty,
insulting . . . and worrying. However I do see some of the psychology behind it. People who resort to foul and insulting language to attack others they don’t agree with clearly have some kind of insecurity or anxiety. They can’t just agree to disagree..they must convert everyone. Why can’t they rest in their own opinions? Is there doubt deep down inside???”
Steven, you’ve just written down exactly what we see theists and theism doing. Rude language is resorted to because theists are threatened by non-conformity, and live in either a familial or congregational culture in which such rudeness towards atheists is condoned and encouraged. In past ages, every village was homogenous in its beliefs. That has broken down due to trans-national migration. Today, fear of “the other” is the sign of a primitive mind.
Secondly, many theists certainly cannot agree to disagree, they do feel a need to convert others - and this is fundamental to both Islam and Christianity; indeed, fundamentalists of both religions are required to force their religion upon others as a prerequisite to their respective immortality/afterlife mythologies. This is an example where religious dogma is the only reason that people do an annoying or unpleasant thing to other people, that they would never do on any other topic, because they are otherwise taught socially acceptable rules for interaction.
And lastly, yes, there is doubt deep down inside for many religious believers. Why else is it so important for them to participate in group rituals every week? Religious texts like the Bible say that public prayer is a sign of vanity; yet the more devoutly religious people are, the more insistent they are that everyone be forced to join them in their prayers!
Among atheists you will not find much doubt. Once you understand that you have nothing to fear from Zeus, Isis, and Thor, the god Yahweh doesn’t have any hold over you. Dennett called his book “Breaking the Spell” for a reason. If some sort of deity or higher power exists, it isn’t the tribal war god of the Jews, any more than it’s the elephant god of Hindus or the great Raven of the North American Coast Salish. If some sort of afterlife awaits humans, the god, gods, or power that controls it would certainly not grant entrance based upon which Bronze Age mythology your parents indoctrinated you with.
I’m a bit late in the game to this conversation, but I just found out about it from Austin’s e-mail.
It seems to me that it would be anti-Semitic NOT to hold Judaism to the same kind of scrutiny that you hold to other religions, as though Jews were “different,” or “special,” “exempt,” or otherwise categorically incapable of acting like rational, moral, ethical human beings. You know, that soft bigotry of lowered expectations.
That Judaism and Jews come out favorably in your comparisons with other religions is not a function of political correctness, but a balanced examination of actual facts and evidence. That’s not exceptionalism, that’s the courage of honest inquiry.
It is your column, but surely you receive many critical and indignant comments from people who show a little restraint and education without publishing something from an individual unable to express himself without resorting to unprintable profanity? Jacks’ mail comes from an odorous stable indeed.
How did you receive this? On the forum or directly?
ChuckA, you my friend have sumed up Palin very nicely. I had to read the rest of the comments to stop from laughing my butt off. LOL
I’m not jumping on Steven, you and The Sojourner did that very beautifully and made the point. I commend you both. Thanks for being on “our” side!
Chuck B
Very interesting comments from Chuck A.I know a number of people brought up by Catholic “brothers” in Ireland,andI feel Orwell’s Big Brother missed a trick-they are totally brainwashed and indoctrinated.Even when they can see the plain contradictions in their beliefs,they don’t,as a rule,abandon them.
To come to the origin of this thread,I know that,in the UK,his comments would stand as a “hate crime.”I don’t think many regulars on here will be surprised that it’s the attack on Austin’s Jewish origins,rather than his atheist beliefs which would make the post prosecutable.I’m not sure what the law is in the US regarding hate crime,but I’d sympathise if Austin didn’t want to go down that route.More and more,religious groups in the UK are using “hate crime” legislation to try and stop people attcking their religious beliefs.