Weekly Poll: Should the Pledge of Allegiance say 'Under God'?
Ever since the 1950s, the Pledge of Allegiance has included the phrase 'Under God.' Some have challenged this, arguing that the addition of those words was unconstitutional. Others say that they simply acknowledge the nation's religious heritage, isn't religious, or even that it's just not worth worrying about. What do you think? Do you think it should be removed as unconstitutional, or do you think for some reason that it should remain in the Pledge of Allegiance?
Michael Newdow’s position in his original court case was that it is unconstitutional for state employees to lead students in an exercise which is fundamentally religious in nature because that represents the state endorsing a religious viewpoint. The fact that his daughter was not required to participate in this exercise cannot be sufficient to make it constitutional — it would not, for example, be sufficient for students to be allowed to refrain from participating in official prayers or Bible readings for such practices to be constitutional.
In their decision on Newdow's case, the Ninth Circuit Court applied every possible test to the Pledge and the policy of reciting the pledge, finding that none of the tests were successful. As a result, the Court held that both the addition of the words “under God” and the school district’s policy itself were violations of the Establishment Clause. I've yet to see any convincing rebuttals to this decision. Indeed, it's rare for anyone to actually try to engage the decision's legal reasoning and show that the addition of "under God" could in any way survive any standard constitutional test
Comments
Wow! Looks like some X-ian group/site/forum decided to bomb this poll. 76,000+ votes for “This is a Chritian nation” to add up to a 94% vote for the fundies?
I wouldn’t be surprised if this turns out to be the highest number of votes you’ve ever seen here
Either that or the counter software hiccuped.
Looks like the poll got spammed, probaby by a ‘bot. It would be good news if 80,000 Christianists were visiting the site, they might learn something about atheists.
Depending on the jurisdiction, in my state I sometimes have to swear to god in court before my statements will be taken as true.
I am always tempted to say, “No, I will not tell the whole truth so help me god. However, I swear on my own honor to tell the truth.” However, I’m in court for a reason and I don’t want to screw it up by pissing off some christian, so I always just let it pass.
But, it bothers me.
Wow… I want a bot that can do that.
On the subject of swearing… if you are an ***hole (like me) you might swear to tell “The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me Loki”.
Samuel, I always want to invoke Thor, the ancient god of my own ancestry. Or maybe Ikthar from the movie “Galaxy Quest.”
They need ‘bots because they don’t have Pharyngulites. PZ Myers leads poll-crashing hordes. (I confess to joining the hordes.)
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula
I wonder if the gung-ho Xtn behind these spambots have even stopped to think how the Founding Fathers would feel to learn we later institued a loyalty oath in the first place, “under god” or not. I suspect they’d be appalled. It’s certainly nothing they ever felt the need for.
-D
I can’t believe that poll result. Even the intelligent christians don’t want to visit a blog that questions their belief.
Hmmm… I’m going to tentatively assume this poll was bot-spammed. If that’s the case, it says a lot about whoever did it, and their lack of desire to understand the truth. Whenever I see a poll I am genuinely interested in seeing the results because even if the results are not to my liking, they are informative and helpful. Any person or group with the goal of swaying a poll is not interested in data, they are interested in the outward appearance of a mass opinion reflecting their own, and that’s just sad. One wonders what such a person would do in a position of power and/or responsibility.
My actual answer would have, been: “No, it would not be unconstitutional because this nation was founded by people who emancipated themselves from oppression which they faced when expressing their belief in God. I do not however believe that we Americans live in a ‘christian nation’ today. Too many people in this country have turned away from God.”
What a sorrowful existance. All I am able to do is pray for non-beleivers that somehow they will come to know God through the Christ.
I really do not know or understand how I came to my own understanding of and belief in the one Lord, God of all that is, but I am certainly happy about having my belief in Him.
After 38 years of Life, I can proclaim honestly that I have never experienced a “feeling of fullness and sincere satisfaction” within my(heart/soul/core/inner being/whatever you want to call it)” concerning anything I ever indulged in, taken part in, followed, believed, learned, etc…of this world as I have in my spiritual relationship with the One Lord. All other pursuits have left me with a certain emptiness, like something was missing inside. This is probably so because no matter how enjoyable my engagements were, they eventually ended or if not yet, they will certainly eventually end. I have enjoyed my life very much thus far even though living a christian life is not at all an easy task. I find it a rewarding challenge every day.
I am sure you have all read the Bible cover to cover. If it troubled you, then you need to get past some of the details which disturb you (many chapters and verses disturb me too)and understand the real messages which are scattered throughout the stories and teachings in the book. The Bible, when lived (not just read and interpreted), actually really does make you a better person to those in your life and even to yourself. It makes you accountable, and accountability maintains order among people in a society for the benefit of the safety of the society.
Now why is this a bad idea/belief? Is it because God killed thousands and thousands of people as written in the Old Testament? So what if He did? (He continues to kill thousands and thousands of people every day) He is God, is He not? He did and can do whatever He wishes. What would you do if you were the creator of an entire universe and all of it’s billions of beings. You gave them life, among many other good things for example…FREE WILL (as opposed to nothing) and you asked them to follow your rules…. and they blew you off again and again and again? What would a god with a human mind like ours do? I would not want to be one of the created beings of that god in that case.
But that’s right, this is an atheist site, so there is no such thing as God. The afterlife is probably nixed too since we all just magically appeared out of nothing, we are all going back to NOTHING aren’t we?
To ponder for a moment that this short life is “it”…wow.
I am sorry if I don’t seem to understand atheism but I don’t have the time to learn about something that paints suck a bleak picture of reality and focuses so much on a self centered existence (by praising ones own accomplishments and acheivements). Whether you want to call this selfishness a sin or something else, anyone with any measure of intelligence knows it is not a good character trait to be selfish doing so does not help a person to make friends or influence other people (which are usually good things, right?).
I humbly ask all atheists who read this to challenge your own non-belief every day you live. Read, think and learn as you enjoy to do. Really think about where your atheistic beliefs may lead you.
As a believer, I am not blessed with any special clue as to what an eternal separation from God(hell)might be like, however when I die, if it turns out to be true that for everyone who has ever existed, there are places named Heaven and Hell, I certainly know where I would want to be going.
Regardless of your thoughts or beliefs, where would you want to find yourself if you should “wake back up” following your death from this world??? Your clocks are ticking like mine is and your expiration date is drawing nearer as is mine, so argue your philosophy if you must but I would still rather be where I am in my belief.
~80 years is merely a speck when compared to the line of Eternity.
Peace be with you and may God Bless you all
I just voted for it to be struck down as unconstitutional and it looks like the poll has been bombed by a bunch of fanatical Xians.
Ummmm…Thanks(?), Pastor Mike…for the sermon.
“~80 years is merely a speck when compared to the line of Eternity.”
That’s true of course…but then does anyone REALLY know what they’re intimating using the word “Eternity”
At a mere 68, I’m well aware of how fleeting our struggle to exist is, on this tiny orb in our local part of the Milky Way Galaxy.
You’re 80, Mike? It seems you didn’t do much questioning in your OWN life regarding things like…oh, I dunno…is the Bible really a reliable text to govern your life with; considering the obviously strange, rather cruel, tyrannical God described, as you pointed out, in the Old Testacle…I mean, Testament Bible. It would seem that you didn’t search out any of the more recent Scientific, historical, archaeological…even Mythological knowledge that we have actual, almost instant, access to in today’s world. Thanks, of course, to the Internet; ANYONE who cares to, can get information never before accessible to the general masses.
If you’ve ever seriously questioned the “roots” of your beliefs; I don’t need to enumerate the whole bunch of flaws in ANY of the various religion’s arguments.
I certainly don’t want to go TOO much further in engaging in a futile war of ’sermons’ here.
So, I’ll try to keep it SOMEWHAT short…
The rather blatantly unjust notion of Eternal damnation…Hell…which, in Christianity, is really more dependant in origin on the original Evangelical type Preacher…”Saint” Paul; specifically in his Letters to the Corinthians…who was not even an eye witness to any of the SUPPOSED ‘Jesus’ events. That claim amounts, indeed, to a most blatant injustice done to billions; perhaps trillions of poor ignorant Eartlings for something they ignorantly “inherited” (totally without choice) because of two supposed dummies in a garden; succombing to the ‘charms’ of a talkiing snake!
Yeah…Who, exactly, designed (thought up) that rather vicious little tribal story? “D’UH!”
Or, as Adam, if he had any brains, might have exclaimed:
“Who let THAT weird-ass talking, reptilian jerk in here?”
“Was that YOU…Oh Great Invisible Voyeur in the sky?”
OK…leaving that obvious myth…consider OTHER possible scenarios BEYOND the usual, simple-minded dualist afterlife notions.
A little preface, first:
We all know the most common atheist’s “after death” contention…
…Fade to ‘Eternal’ black…no further consciousness…NADA…NOTHING…your joys and/or struggles are Finished FOREVER.
Or, perhaps, as some humorists might describe it “Holding ‘your’ breath FOREVER!”
In other words…NON-EXISTENCE…which is REALLY what a choice should be!
In other words…ala Shakespeare…”To BE, or NOT to BE…THAT is the question” OR…if you will “To EXIST…or NOT to EXIST!”
The so-called “choice” proposed by Christianity, is, in my opinion, not even a REAL choice at all. Especially since, as Christians believe, you had NO choice of when, where, how, to whom, etc…to be born into THIS existence. Add to that…no choice of gender, talent, intelligence, genetics…not to mention birth defects. It’s just…”BELIEVE…or I’ll punish you FOREVER…with no end!”
WTF!
Now, here’s where I’m proposing other possibles to you Pastor Mike (and others)…which…MAYBE…you’ve a some time in your life wondered about. Let’s call them “OTHER NON-ABRAHAMIC BELIEFS”.
These are also occasionally proposed by atheists; albeit a small minority; but mostly by non-dogmatic freethinkers who might be accused of borrowing from Eastern Style thought…often labelled “New Age” Woo-Woos, or just people who think or speculate a lot more “Liberally”. Some might even call it: “Lateral Thinking”.
1) Reincaration [check Wikipedia?] There are lots of variations on that formula.
Briefly: Your EXISTENCE did not begin with your parents screwing each other! I do sometime joke:
“Let’s face it…we all got f**ked into this life!”
2) Parallel dimensions…Again…YOU do the thinking? [Also fits with variations of #1]
3) Parallel Universes…Science, CONSCIOUNESS ENERGY, “String Theory”; Speculative Physics…Quantum Mechanics.
4) WE’RE ALL CONFUSED, (Warlike?) ALIENS!…I’m joking on that one…(I think!)
Most other notions would more than likely be a combination of the above.
I’m sure there may be other suggestions for…ummm…Mike, and others, to consider.
Much has been covered, of course, on this wonderful Site over the years by our illustrious host…Austin.
I’ll end this futility on a lighter note:
“Have fun, folks!…
SERIOUSLY!”
link this to Pharyngula and the xians will be over come
Mike,
“Really think about where your atheistic beliefs may lead you.”
They have led me to believe I don’t have time to waste listening to condescending, self-righteous theists. That in itself has made the journey worthwhile.
David F,
I agree with you. I was born in the U.S. I don’t feel I need to give an oath of loyalty. Does anyone really believe that being forced to recite an oath actually makes someone more loyal? I’m also confused about the need to play the national anthem at sporting events. What is that about?
Mike:
Do not pray for me. I find that very condescending as well as insulting! I don’t need or want your God’s blessing either.
As a matter of fact I find your whole self-righteousness downright annoying. Cloaking it in piety only makes it worse. Need I mention that your loving god sends people to hell if they don’t believe?
You say,you follow the bible, but somehow, only a Christian understands what it really means. “Isn’t that special?”(a quote from Dana Carvey’s holier-than-thou church lady character), in case you aren’t familiar with it.
This country never was and I hope never will be, a Christian nation. One of my pet peeves is people who ignore the church and state separation in our own constitution.
Our founding fathers never eschewed this as a theocracy. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan are all theocratic countries. If you like their sharia law and female subjugation you’ll have to move there.
My fondest hope for this country is that it continues and prospers as an example of secular liberty and justice for all. Not just Christians.
As an atheist,with no belief in a god, I’m fine with it. On the other hand,if you’re the one in error, then what…? What if there is no heaven, no Jesus waiting to welcome you when you die, no heavenly rewards, no eternal bliss? What if I was right all along? We’ll each find out some day.
A huge oops!:
A very good reason for really proofreading your own comments. The line should read, “Our founding fathers would have eschewed this as a theocracy.” I was going to say ” would have never allowed…”, and decided instead to insert eschewed to save typing all that out. Unfortunately, I forgot to check the deletion thoroughly, and wound up typing all these words to explain it. Sometimes you just can’t win.
Sorry in advance for the long post.
Mike, here are my responses to your post.
“What a sorrowful existance [sic]….”
You don’t need to worry about my existence. I’m having a great time, thank you. And no, I’m not having wild, drug-induced orgies; I just go to work, come home, spend time with the kids and husband, wake up the next morning, and do it all again.
“I really do not know or understand how I came to my own understanding of and belief in the one Lord….”
Sorry, Mike, but I don’t respect that at all. You just believe in God, but you don’t know why? Wow. Don’t Christians believe that doubt leads to stronger faith? I don’t think God wants you to blindly follow him without ever giving it a second thought.
“After 38 years of Life, I can proclaim honestly that I have never experienced a ‘feeling of fullness and sincere satisfaction’….”
Really? You must not get out much. I get that sort of feeling all of the time, like when I see my kids truly enjoying themselves or when I see the sun rise or set.
“[N]o matter how enjoyable my engagements were, they eventually ended or if not yet, they will certainly eventually end.”
Knowing it won’t last forever makes it even more precious; you have to enjoy life now because it won’t last. I guess if you believe you will live forever, you don’t have to worry about such things.
“I have enjoyed my life very much thus far even though living a christian life is not at all an easy task. I find it a rewarding challenge every day.”
Actually, doing what you’re told without asking questions doesn’t sound very challenging at all.
“If [the Bible] troubled you, then you need to get past some of the details which disturb you… and understand the real messages which are scattered throughout the stories and teachings in the book.”
If Atheism troubles you, then you need to get past some of the details that disturb you and understand the real message. Wait, that didn’t work on you? Damn.
“[The Bible] makes you accountable….”
Why would you think Atheists aren’t accountable? We are accountable to our friends, neighbors, family, the law, the government, and ourselves. We don’t have to invent people to watch us; there actually are people watching.
“[S]ince we all just magically appeared out of nothing, we are all going back to NOTHING aren’t we?”
I don’t understand what the big deal about the “afterlife” is. It sounds pretty lame to me. Why would I want to hang out for all eternity with a bunch of “perfect” people? Also, why does it bother you that there will be a point in the future in which you cease to exist? Do you really think you are so special that the world won’t be the same without you? That’s just ridiculous. It doesn’t really bother me that I didn’t exist before 1977, and it certainly doesn’t bother me that I probably won’t exist after 2077.
“I don’t have the time to learn about something that paints suck a bleak picture of reality and focuses so much on a self centered existence (by praising ones own accomplishments and acheivements [sic]).”
You’re the one who is self-centered; your post is all about how you have “The Truth” and we’re too stupid to realize. Puh-leeez. When you are 100% in charge of your life, you have to own all of the consequences, whether they are good or bad. When I mysteriously find $20 in my pocket, I don’t praise Jesus; when I get pulled over for speeding I don’t blame the devil. It’s all me, baby. It’s all me.
“Really think about where your atheistic beliefs may lead you.”
My non-belief has led me to stop waiting for God to help me. It’s forced me to go after what I want and take responsibility for myself. We actually need more of that in this world, not less.
“[W]here would you want to find yourself if you should “wake back up” following your death from this world?”
Well, if I “wake back up” after I die, that means God really wasn’t that upset that I didn’t believe in him.
~Plankton
Mike:
It just occurred to me to raise one question, none of the believers seem to be able to answer.
Exactly, what are you going to be doing in this afterlife in heaven with your loving Jesus? I have been asking this question of believers such as yourself, for years. Not one could give me a definitive answer. Can you?
Firstly, to a few of you people, I just love the “self-righteousness” stuff that we “Christians” always instantly get categorized as being, the minute we comment…
Why am I self righteous? Because I think it would be sad to believe I was just going to end in about 80 years?… or was it because I said that all I can do is pray that non-believers come to believe? Yes, I bet that was what did it, well, If you read the Bible, believers are to be armed with prayer. I try to use my prayer for good things and whether you are offended by me praying for you or not you can’t stop me from doing it cause I do it in my head and even if you were standing right beside me you could not stop me from praying for you. Why would that bother you anyway if you don’t believe? If you really do believe there is no God than you can just dismiss me as a lunatic. How can I harm you by prayer. I pray for good things for you that if they turn out like I believe you would enjoy endlessly. I will not stop. So don’t even respond about my “self-righteousness and my prayer. You have only Science, and you believe in that, which I do to (I am a Physician) but I do not call you names because of your belief, so stop what is simply “name calling”, anyway…. I do bad things every day which can and sometimes do hurt people just like everyone of you also do, in spite of this, I try hard to do good and what I believe is right in my daily life, but to call me self-righteous is like calling you people “Jesus freaks”. It is simply untrue, Weak argument, cop-out, thank you, come again,… and try next time.
2ndly and just for you “The Sojourner” … In “this afterlife” am going to be partying it up jammin’ out great tunes at decibels that would blow your humanly ear drums out, slammin’ away on drum sets that would make Neil Pert reach orgasm two-thousand times over celebrating my wexistence together with God, while eating endless food and drinking endless bountiful nectars of (seriously) God-knows-what fruit trees, kayaking class V rapids, and not getting eaten by hydraulics, hiking and camping in forests that would make Yellowstone look like crab-grass set beside mountains of unequivocal beauty and fishing for Heavenly brook trout and steelhead in endlessly long and equally beautiful streams, angling for Blue Marlin and Mahi-Mahi in endless Heavenly oceans, swimming in warm, crystal clear waters, riding on jet packs nah,.. wait a minute we don’t need no stinking jet packs, {we can fly now} with the full contingent of the faithfully departed from this “world” that also had believed, all in the presence of the One who Is and created everything in this small world including science. Spending endless days conversing with “I am” about the meaning of endless earthly philosophical questions such as, what is the meaning behind previous beliefs by those such as the late Friedrich Nietzsche for one topic example… I could go on for you, but I think this paints a pretty good (yet infinitely small) picture. There will be few people in Heaven as compared to all that ever existed here in “this world” but there will still be more than 1,000,000 x the people you have ever talked to here in “this world” and at least as many topics to discuss. I think there will be plenty to keep me busy for forever. If your fine with thick darkness , well I guess that’s okay for some but I’d rather hang out forever even if my puny human mind can’t begin to grasp what that actually is right now. It’s still a lot more fun than an endless dirt-nap.
Also, Sojourner, I am not “cloaking” anything. I am out in the open. And I really am sorry if I made you cry, because you seemed really upset at my “condescendence” towards you. Be strong my brother.
The rest of this is directed back to Mrs. Plankton, who interprets only ½ what she reads and therefore responds based on only ½ sentences that she reads.
First she ½ quotes me… “I really do not know or understand how I came to my own understanding of and belief in the one Lord….”
Sorry, Mike, but I don’t respect that at all. You just believe in God, but you don’t know why? Wow. Don’t Christians believe that doubt leads to stronger faith? I don’t think God wants you to blindly follow him without ever giving it a second thought.
…As my original statement reads, “I don’t know how..” I certainly know why I believe in God, Mrs. Plankton. I also believe as a Christian, that prayer, not doubt, leads to a stronger faith in God.
Mrs Plankton then tells me…
“You must not get out much. I get that sort of feeling all of the time, like when I see my kids truly enjoying themselves or when I see the sun rise or set.” (again, a half-statement analyzed by Mrs. Plankton…
Read the entire sentence that I typed…(right to the part where there is that little dot after a word). Next, re-read it and think about the WHOLE sentence, make sure you understand it, then respond in some other way.
I have learned from the Bible to not “live in the past” or live in the future” but to live in the present and to give 100% toward each moment as it happens. (yep, its in there, and guess what, it’s not in code form where only christians can understand it, it’s actually written so any human can read and understand it and, many times over. (while I am on the topic, I don’t wish to be called a Christian, …I introduced myself to you as one only to make it clear that I am not an atheist but one who believes that there is one God who created all things. I do care to be labeled any more than you people who choose not to believe in one God. I feel this way because it instantaneously sets up barriers If one is truly accountable to God and His laws, then he is also accountable to all the exists in this world
Mrs. Plankton writes further…
“I don’t understand what the big deal about the “afterlife” is. It sounds pretty lame to me. Why would I want to hang out for all eternity with a bunch of “perfect” people? Also, why does it bother you that there will be a point in the future in which you cease to exist? Do you really think you are so special that the world won’t be the same without you? That’s just ridiculous. It doesn’t really bother me that I didn’t exist before 1977, and it certainly doesn’t bother me that I probably won’t exist after 2077.”
My response…
Where did I say it bothered me that I will “cease to exist” as you put it?…I believe that I am no more special than you, Mrs. Plankton or anyone else for that matter. You are just as special as me. Arent we all special?…I think so. Now, special to the world?, after I have gone before it?…Now why would I care about that? And again, I ask, what led you to the notion that I cared about this? I tell you I am not at all concerned with what “the world” will think about me when I have passed from it whatsoever, nor do I really care what “the world” thinks even while I am still in it.
Mrs. Plankton quotes me and then writes…
“I have enjoyed my life very much thus far even though living a Christian life is not at all an easy task. I find it a rewarding challenge every day.”
Actually, doing what you’re told without asking questions doesn’t sound very challenging at all.
Response…
I challenge you to try to live as God asks you to in the Bible for even a week, If you think that is easy, you must be kidding (or you have not even read a page of it and therefore don’t even know what it says in there) Also, where did you see in my text that I didn’t question things in my life? I don’t even recall discussing that topic.
Next I am again quoted by Plankton…
“The Bible makes you accountable….”
Why would you think Atheists aren’t accountable? We are accountable to our friends, neighbors, family, the law, the government, and ourselves. We don’t have to invent people to watch us; there actually are people watching.
Response…
You are just so excited about your non-belief that you just can’t finish one of my sentences, before you make a comment, can you!?
(Rest of sentence) “ …and accountability maintains order among people in a society for the benefit of the safety of the society.”
Plankton writes….
“You’re the one who is self-centered; your post is all about how you have “The Truth” and we’re too stupid to realize. Puh-leeez. When you are 100% in charge of your life, you have to own all of the consequences, whether they are good or bad. When I mysteriously find $20 in my pocket, I don’t praise Jesus; when I get pulled over for speeding I don’t blame the devil. It’s all me, baby. It’s all me.”
Response…
As I stated I am all for accountability, [Accountability = “owning all of ones consequences”]And this has nothing to do with “being in charge of ones life”… Hey, you know what? I don’t praise Jesus for finding money in my pocket, or anywhere else for that matter nor do I blame the devil for when I speed either, that’s great, we agree on something!…definitely all me too, baby!
Plankton first quoting me then a comment…
“Really think about where your atheistic beliefs may lead you.”
My non-belief has led me to stop waiting for God to help me. It’s forced me to go after what I want and take responsibility for myself. We actually need more of that in this world, not less.
Response….
I pray to God, then immediately take action every day. Lastly…
“Where would you want to find yourself if you should “wake back up” following your death from this world?”
Well, if I “wake back up” after I die, that means God really wasn’t that upset that I didn’t believe in him.
~Plankton
Response…
Never mind if, The question was…Where would you want to find yourself if you did?
*Read proverbs, is that not wisdom?, a.k.a. ‘the application of intelligence’ Apply the phrases you see throughout it to something that happened this past week in your lives , not 10,000 years ago, Society has changed much since the Bible was written, but God has NOT
Mike:
I repeat myself, but what if you’re wrong?
Is that supposed to be heaven or Disneyworld?
You’re still insisting you’re right, and we’re wrong and you will be rewarded ever so greatly, while we languish in darkness. If that isn’t self-righteous piety, I don’t know what is.
Mike:
An addenda: Where in your bible does it talk of kayaking, partying, trout fishing, jet packs, tune jamming, etc., etc.? I must have missed that verse, or possibly a whole chapter in the bible. I’ve read both Testaments thoroughly, and I don’t remember reading that description of heaven anywhere.
Maybe that’s what you mean by only believers being able to understand the bible? Or is that just your wishful thinking perhaps?
To Sojurner,
If I am wrong, (which is not my belief as you are aware) I will still have enjoyed my life the way I am presently living it and I will hopefully have been a positive presence to those who I have been in contact with throughout my life. Then I will go back to the earth. (if you are right in your beliefs) No harm done.
We are taught that Heaven is a good place where peace and great joy exist while in continuous comunuon with God. It is written in the Bible (which I believe as you already know) that I will have my spirit and body re-united. The rest is not so Disneyworld-like to me rather a distinct and very real possibility. Yes, I said possibility. But take peace, joy and happiness, then combine them with existence in the presence of the Creator and I think that the law of averages would show that there is a good chance there is going to be some very enjoyabe things going on. I gave my “example” of what Heaven might be like to me.
I do not INSIST that I am right, and you are wrong. I BELIEVE strongly that I am right. The Bible states that those who do not believe, or follow Gods laws, etc. will be forever seperated from God, and the picture it paints does not indicate a place in which I believe anyone would want to knowingly exist for a short time, leave alone eternity.
Lastly again on the Heaven interpretation, sure, that may be some wishfull thinking on my part. I am no prophet or seer. I do believe that I will be at peace, have happiness and experience unending joy, and that right there is good enough for me. I can only equate it to the earthly things i am familiar with in this life as I know it.
Thanks for the questions and “debate” over the past two weeks. I wish everyone well and will do as I said I would. I hope you will change your way of thinking and I will pray on it because that is all I can do. Peace be with you.
Mike
Mike,
I was just pulling your leg. There really is a heaven. Unfortunately for you, you’re not going. Sorry Mike, but you picked the wrong god and, as a result, you will be spending an eternity in perdition. That’s forever. An eternity of torture and torment. Sucks to be you. But better you than me, I guess.
I know there wasn’t a lot to go on, but to actually pick Chistianity, well, you should have known that couldn’t possibly be it.
They say you can’t take it with you, but it might be wise for you to stock up on asbestos underwear, just in case.
You’re friend in god,
John K.