Comment of the Week: Evangelist Tactics on Atheist Sites
Tuesday January 1, 2008
Every atheist site that has any sort of community interaction or reader feedback will inevitably attract the attention of internet evangelists — Christians who are convinced that they will be able to change minds and hearts with a few choice words about Jesus Christ. What's amazing about this is not just the arrogance of those involved, but how consistent the behavior tends to be. It's almost as if they are all following the same plan of attack, the same script, and the same attitudes.
Simon offers this description of how evangelists behave towards atheists:
You may feel like a pioneer, on the outskirts of Christendom evangelising the heathens, but we’ve had so many missionaries here that I doubt you have anything new to offer. You all follow the same steps, perhaps you’re taught them at Missionary School, and they seem to be the following:
Step one: Post off topic. Show total disregard for the purpose of the comments section. Better still, post the exact same thing in the comments section of several totally unrelated articles.
Step two: Make sure you give a gloss of politeness to your post.
Step three: Be sure not to actually read anything on the site, just launch your attack. Do not seek answers, and do not question your own position. You already know you’re right; either of the above would merely be matching wits with the Devil!
Step four: When you get a response, make sure you point out how puzzled you are that they are not yet totally convinced. Be sure to ask “why so much anger”. Point out the character flaws which are surely the cause of their incredulity. Do not engage any of the points raised, do not under any circumstances enter into real dialogue; then repeat your original post as if nothing else has yet been added to the discussion.
Step five: If asked a direct question, ignore it. Accuse everyone else of not answering your questions.
Step six: If they are still not convinced, repeat steps four and five.
Step seven: If anyone calls you up on any of our incoherence, poor reasoning, dishonesty or blatant lies; ignore step two. Be sure to whip yourself up into a self-righteous frenzy, bemoan the fact that all you want is an honest discussion, to share opinions. Tell them how much God loves them. Tell them they’ll spend an eternity in Hell.
Step eight: Leave, never to be heard from again, shaking the metaphorical dust from your metaphorical sandals as you go.
[original post]
I can't begin to tell you how often I have observed Christians following this plan, step by step, in both the forum and in comments on the main site. I've also seen it occur in Usenet newsgroups and other atheist sites. If atheists are angry, it should be little wonder why — how could anyone avoid getting at least a little angry when faced with the above behavior year after year on many different sites?
Comments
I don’t like to post self-promotional material, but I can’t resist this one. I did a strip on this exact topic in May 2007. It was called “Clip & Save.” The idea was this (quote from the strip): “Next time you have the urge to respond to a fundamentalist apologist online, save time and energy by reading this Atheist Eve condensed version instead!”
It was a bit lengthy, but it ran down the arguments and defenses used during apologetic arguments. What caught my attention in the article was the quote: “Step six: If they are still not convinced, repeat steps four and five.”
In my strip, I insert a few times (in red caps) “Repeat above two steps approximately twenty or more times.”
I found this particular strip referenced and reposted in several other forums online within the span of about a month. It definitely hit a nerve. Active atheists who dialogue with evangelicals online really did relate to this.
http://www.atheist-community.org/atheisteve/index.php?id=32
Anyway, just to say, it absolutely is something you can’t avoid if you’re an atheist and open about your atheism. And, just tor reiterate what I’ve said many times before, I don’t go “looking” for dialogues with Xians. I don’t go to Xian sites and attempt to argue or change minds. I don’t go to churches and hand out copies of Dawkin’s articles. I don’t debate people at parties. Every time I’ve had such a discussion, it has been an amateur apologist coming to an atheist forum, comment section or e-list to preach and tell us all how wrong we are. And the article is right, they don’t consider for a second they could have bad info or be incorrect. And they do disregard most of what you say in response. It’s a total monologue. They want to preach not actually exchange ideas/information.
Anyway, good article. Very right on.
Did you mean to say “tactics?”
Eric
Come on! You no wat he ment!
Touche!
It strikes me that there is a newish double standard in play. The evangelicals assume they have every right to pimp (Proselytize they call it)their faithhead rubbish but when atheists respond effectively we are treated to displays of wounded dignities and epithets of, for instance, “militant atheism”,”fundamentalist atheism”, “the new atheism” and so on. Apparently proseltization is permitted but rebuttal is not. Rebuttal is intolerant and rude.
The internet has made a difference IMO. Atheists are no longer isolated and without intellectual backup against the organised predations of the medievalists.
Happy new year to all assembled.
Happy New Year to all, believers or non.
I certainly agree that internet “believers” tend to follow exactly the same script. I don’t think there is any point in arguing with them; just consider them trolls who should not be fed (unless you have plenty of free time on your hands to tussle with them). Their minds will never be changed.
There is no point in getting angry with them. You might as well get angry with a fence post for not being convinced by logic.
Athiests,
Did you know that if you celebrate New Year’s, you would “technically” be considered hypocrites? The reason why I say that is because we are on Christ’s time. The calender is set up based on His time on earth. This is why Muslims do not celebrate New Year’s with us. Their argument is that they do not know for sure what year it is. They refuse to submit to the “Christian” calendar. Remember this every time you write the date on a check or when you sign a document, etc. Why are athiests so quick to point the finger at Christians for being hypocrites when you celebrate New Year’s??? God is everywhere– In our constitution, on the dollar, Christmas, Easter, our calendar, justice system… He is everywhere and you don’t even know it. Even submitting to the authorities is submitting to the government in which God ordered to keep order and boundaries on earth. You can’t escape Him
God bless!
Yes, treating them as trolls or just folks who have drunk too much Kool-Aid is a good idea. The only thing more I can see being done is to ask Austin to delete overly outrageous posts made by these hopeless zombies. Austin often posts warnings to those who persist too much in making comments in an inapproriate location. I don’t know if he would delete posts made by these hit-and-run folks if they are doing that only to get a rise from the rest of us.
Tracie, you made a great point about the double-standard. When atheists make remarks to Xians, we are “hostile” but Xians make remarks to atheists, they are just doing “god’s work” and are otherwise benign preachers.
Hey all!
I’m starting up a group that doesn’t believe in unicorns. Would you like to waste your time with me and discuss something that doesn’t exist?
We’ll have so much fun!!
The athiests form groups to talk about a God that doesn’t exist… Why?
I don’t know but they seem to spend a lot of time thinking about it. So I thought I would start a unicorn group and do the same. Go to http://www.unicornsdonotexist.com
Jesus Freak:
Did you know that by using the names Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday for the days of the week, you’re technically a Norse pagan? Those names correspond to the gods Tyr, Woden, and Thor. That makes today Tyr’s day. Unless you call today something other than Tuesday, you’re a hypocrite.
JF: You should know better than to post the same off-topic comment to multiple posts like that. I deleted all except this one, given the ironic context. If you do anything so rude and inconsiderate again, you will lose your posting privileges here. I have to wonder, though, why you think such unethical and rude behavior will convince atheists that they are wrong.
Austin:
While I understand the chastisement toward JF completely, I have to point out the extreme humor of what he just did in the context of his posting it at this comment section for an article that notes:
“Better still, post the exact same thing in the comments section of several totally unrelated articles.”
You just can’t buy this kind of irony. If I hadn’t read some of JF’s prior posts, I would say he was clever, and did this intentionally–as an ironic humor statement. As it is, I’m quite sure it’s a laugh at him rather than with him.
Jesus Freak: (This is why Muslims do not celebrate New Year’s with us. Their argument is that they do not know for sure what year it is. They refuse to submit to the “Christian” calendar.)
Am I sensing a subtle disdain for the great religion of Islam? This comes as no surprise to me, for it is my observation that the different Christian denominations don’t have a whole lot of love for each other either. Happy New year!
Oh, and BTW JF. Thank you for giving us something substantive to discuss, because we know you exist. Again, Happy new Year.
JF - Do you have a kid? If so, would you stone him/her to death for disobeying you? Just wondering.
Unfortunately, we don’t have the need to discuss our disbelief in unicorns because millions of sadly disillusioned people haven’t formed a cult based on them. Don’t worry, JF, the day our president prays to unicorns and does oppressive and irrational things in the name of unicorns, then we will join your website.
Actually, for non-religious administrative purposes, most Muslims do use the western calendar. I think Saudi Arabia is the only country that uses the Hijra calendar for administrative purposes.
A good friend of mine is an Orthodox Jew. Jesus Christ is not part of his religion, obviously, but he still signs the checks with a 2008 year, not 5768, the equivalent Hebrew year. Amazing, huh?
Eric Posted:That makes today Tyr’s day. Unless you call today something other than Tuesday, you’re a hypocrite.
Furthermore it is a Tyr’s day in the month of Janus, the Roman god of gateways and transitions. So by his own reasoning, Jesus Freak is doubly hypocritical by acknowledging the New Years celebration. What a maroon.
JF was correct in making a point of the fact that whether we like it or not, there are religious/Christian related symbols that we have to live with in our daily lives. However, he is terribly wrong if he somehow thinks this makes his religion true.
For those interested, I have been carrying on a dialog with Mike who was involved here recently under a different topic.
The link is
http://mikeduran.com/?p=972
You can scroll to the bottom to see my latest entry.
Jesus Freak wrote:God is everywhere– In our constitution, on the dollar, Christmas, Easter, our calendar, justice system…
No gods are mentioned in the Constitution.
According to various Supreme Court opinions, the deity mentioned on the dollar is the deist God and not the God of Abraham, Jesus, or Muhammed.
As other have pointed out to you before, Christmas and Easter were originally pagan celebrations of the solstices.
Again as we have pointed out, Roman and Germanic deities dominate the calender, and its structure is determined by astronomical observations rather than the Bible. (Seven days in the week named after the seven moving astronomical bodies visible to the naked eye, twelve mo[o]nths because there are approximately twelve lunar cycles in a year, 365 days in the year because that is the time between winter solstices, etc.)
Our justice system isn’t based on the existence or characteristics of any deity, although it is true that the Supreme Court building features numerous depictions of Zeus, Juno, Minerva, and Mercury.
Patrick:
Excellent catch with regard to the Constitution. I didn’t even see that sentence before you pointed it out.
Too many people seem to confuse the Constitution with the Declaration of Independence–which I think must have been the case here.
Luckily, our laws are based on the Constitution, which, you are right, does not mention “god” at all.
People try to say that it’s “based on biblical principles” but that doesn’t make sense either. The only form of government I see endorsed in the Bible is the Davidic monarchy.
Eric,
It’s been a long time since I’ve cracked a bible, but I seem to recall that God was actually quite happy with the limited government of the warlords (judges), and that he gave Israel a king reluctantly because the people supposedly wanted one.
Regarding naming days of the week after Norse gods: you forgot Freya’s Day, i.e. Friday.
Happy New Year and Happy Woden’s Day to all!
tracieh , And others. If at any time you want to know which religious leaders want to trash our constitution, just find out who hates the Reverend Barry Lynn. Easy one.
“It’s been a long time since I’ve cracked a bible, but I seem to recall that God was actually quite happy with the limited government of the warlords (judges), and that he gave Israel a king reluctantly because the people supposedly wanted one.”
Point taken, but hardly a resounding parallel with the American Constitution.
Remember the reason for the season and the new year; our tilted planet revolves around a star! Amazing!