Subject: God
If you don't believe there is a God who is the creator of all that is in the heavens and on the earth, who is all powerful and all knowing and all wise and who will call each of us to account on the Day of Judgment for our actions - both good and evil. Why do you spend so much time and effort trying to convince others that He does not exist.
This is a question which I hear often, and I'm sure that I'm not the only atheist to receive it. Many people want to know why a person who doesn't believe in any gods would bother to talk about them at all, much less argue that they don't exist. There are many possible reasons, but here is one that religious believers should consider: if they don't follow another religion or don't believe in they god(s) of another religion, why do you ever bother arguing against them?
After all, it doesn't make sense for an atheist to be talking about or arguing against theism, then it also doesn't make sense for a Muslim to be talking about Buddhism or a Christian to be arguing that Allah is a "false god." But there is nothing at all wrong with those situations. To suggest that there might be is merely an attempt to limit debate and dialogue to those who already agree, eliminating the critiques of outsiders and skeptics.
It sounds as though it is yourself you are trying to convince. You may certainly be successful in convincing yourself and others (which is a grievous sin indeed), but it will be you and they who will be in for a great surprise.
If by "convince myself" one means "always seeking, questioning, and re-examining my ideas and preconceptions," then I do indeed hope that that is true and that it remains true. I wouldn't want to be someone who is already so convinced of what I believe that I stop bothering to consider whether I may actually be wrong. For that reason I also don't try to "convince" others; instead, I try to encourage them to question - to engage their beliefs with more skepticism and critical inquiry.
Make yourself happy now in this life, because if you refuse to believe in the oneness of God you will most assuredly burn in the fires of hell for all eternity.
Many, if not most, Muslims and Christians do believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them will end up suffering for all eternity in hell. It's curious that they believe this to be an effective argument. First, they seem to assume that threats of punishment are somehow a sufficient and appropriate basis for belief in their religion; perhaps that is the primary or only reason they believe, but why assume that it is true of everyone else? Second, they don't notice that this argument can only be true if their god is less moral and less deserving of worship and obedience than any of history's worst mass murderers. They are, in effect, creating a strong case for moral and good people to reject belief in their god as they describe it.
How can you not believe in God. Where do you think the stars and the sun and the moon came from. All laws come from somewhere. Where do you think the 'laws of nature" originated? Are you so ego centric that you believe man is capable of all that you see around you. Does your arrogance extend so far as to believe that man is capable of "controlling" the universe.
Here we get the Argument To Design - things in nature are wonderful, so how could they not have been created by God? And it's a poor example of the argument as well, not even bothering to argue that design exists in the first place. We also have the argument that "laws of nature" imply a "law giver" - an argument commonly used by people so woefully ignorant of science that they don't realize that "laws of nature" is really just a metaphor. Natural or Scientific Laws are not "laws" in the usual sense; instead, they are regularities which we see and can describe mathematically.
God rewards those who believe and do works of righteousness and punishes those who refuse to submit themselves to His will. He is a just and mighty Lord. He has the ultimate power over all things - even those who refuse to acknowledge His existence.
Here God is depicted as a petty, insecure tyrant. Do as God says... or else. Those who obedient will be rewarded; those who are not obedient will be punished. There is no indication of love, mercy, happiness, pleasure, or any of the things which help make life enjoyable. There is no indication of anything that would suggest that this God moral, much less that obedience to this God is moral and right - only that it is prudent if you want to get the best deal in the afterlife.
You say I have not given you proof, I have no proof to give you. The proof is all from God, but you have to open your heart and mind and your eyes. The proof is everywhere, in the smallest particle to the largest mammal, or continent or planet, or solar system. The proof is in the coming of day and night and day again.
Once again we return to the Argument To Design; and, once again, we are left with nothing more than the mere assertion that examination of nature provides us with all the "proof" we need. Unfortunately, this sort of thing is nothing more than a pathetic excuse not to have to construct a coherent argument for one's position. A person who writes this is simply saying "Hey, look! There's proof over there! No, I don't have to explain how or why - my job is done now. If you don't believe, then there is something wrong with you and you'll burn in hell for it."
You'll never see prosecutors say "Hey, look! A bloody knife! Now you see that the defendant is guilty - sentence him to the electric chair." Why? Because they are know enough to realize that they have to explain how and why the knife is a connection between the deceased and the defendant - the mere presence of a bloody knife doesn't prove that someone was murdered, much less who did it. Similarly, the presence of planets at atoms that humans cannot create does not prove that they were created, much less who did the creating.
This isn't that hard to figure out - all it takes is to stop being so "convinced" of one's position that it becomes possible to step outside the arguments and examine them more closely. It takes the application of some skepticism and critical thinking - filters through which good, solid beliefs should be able to pass while unworthy and irrational beliefs will be discarded. It's not a perfect filter, but it's the best we have - it's certainly a huge improvement over the non-filter of faith, through which anything and everything passes.
More selections from the Agnosticism / Atheism Mailbag...
To: “Halimah”
Subject: Why I argue against the god idea.
I argue because I care about people, because it saddens me to see people frittering away a good portion of their very short time on earth in pursuit of pointless things, like worshipping and praying to a malicious supernatural entity, e.g. the Abrahamic God. Think of how many things you could otherwise be using that time for, things that would actually be helping to make this a better world to live in.
I argue because this is one of my moral values, to place the welfare of human beings in the here and now above any and all unfounded and speculative beliefs of a better life(?) to come once we are dead. How does it make any sense to say that in order to enjoy a better life than we have now, death is mandatory? To hold that view is to say we’d all be better off dead, (presuming we’ve all first converted to Christianity, in your view). If that isn’t a notion worth arguing against, what is?
I argue because willful ignorance is a cancer of the mind. To go on proclaiming belief in some principle that has been thorougly debunked, such as the notion that babies come from the cabbage patch, or that demons cause physical illness, is willful ignorance that can never produce anything good.
I argue not because I believe anything I say will ever convince anyone of my views, but rather that something I say may cause someone to start thinking for themselves, and they will convince themselves that their formerly held convictions were wrong. It is neither crime nor sin to be mistaken, but it is moral bankruptcy to refuse to admit when you’re wrong.
I argue because I believe that a world without the divisiveness of religious factions, without all the griefs and calamities religious conflict has produced, would be a better world to live in than the one we have now. The world to come is the world our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren (and on and on) will have to live in, and I only want the best possible world for them. Your god does not seem to want such a world for them; your god seems content to let this planet and its inhabitants self-destruct. Such a god, if existent, is a loathsome god. To believe in such a god is to acquiesce to the destruction of this planet. I am morally compelled to argue against belief in self-destruction.
I argue to protect your right to believe such nonsense, but at the same time it is imperative that I argue to prevent you from acting on those beliefs. Everyone has the right to believe any way they want, but no one has the right to behave any way they want, especially when such behavior is detrimental to the welfare of human beings. Acting on certain religious beliefs, such as calling for the execution of anyone who does not subscribe to a particular religious belief, is one example of such detrimental behavior.
I argue because I believe in people, not gods. I argue because it is the morally defensible position to take, that the welfare of my fellow human beings is more important than attempting the impossible task of satiating the ego of some mythological creature.
I argue because I am morally compelled to champion reason over superstition, to champion knowledge over willful ignorance, to champion understanding and compassion over blind faith and indifference, to champion justice over injustice, to champion love over hate.
And that’s just to name a few of the reasons I argue against the god idea.
Forrest Prince
Because you posted this on a public comment page, I assume that it is OK to copy and keep for future use? You are so eloquent in expressing my thoughts exactly! Ron
“How can you not believe in God. Where do you think the stars and the sun and the moon came from.”
Round and round the mulberry bush we go – whee what fun. Where does “god” come from?
Ron:
Certainly, you may copy and quote me, since as you say I have posted in a public forum. All I ask is that you credit me accordingly, and keep my words in context, both of which I naturally trust you to do.
Happy New Year! May it be better than 2007 — which ain’t askin’ too much, IMO.
Fun thing you can do with this email – change all mentions of Halimah’s God (I’m assuming from her name and stylistic choices that she’s Muslim, although I could be wrong), to “Zogmor the Galactic toaster Princess, creator And ruler Of the Universe,” and it has little effect on her persuasiveness. In all fairness, I don’t know if the text we’re seeing is the entirety of the email, but I suspect my comment rings true all the same.
Forrest Prince?…Like Ron…I, too, appreciate your eloquent comment.
The energy that it took to express that is certainly not lost or wasted here; and may, indeed, ‘evolve’ into a sort of consciousness raising energy for a few passing readers, who may even be…’in transition’.
It certainly, in my opinion, contributes to raising some consciousness about the true…rational atheist’s(?)…higher sense of ethics.
Indeed…just who ARE the TRULY MORAL, on this “Little Blue Dot” planet?
>Why do you spend so much time and effort trying to convince others that He does not exist.
I can’t express how ironic it is that every time I hear/read this comment, it’s a theist proactively contacting atheists and not the other way around.
The person has to _come_ to an atheist forum to ask _atheists_ why they are trying to “change” people’s minds…?
What’s wrong with this picture?
Eric: I swap out “fairies” generally, except in cases where it involves ideas like apologetics involving “evidence,” such as witnesses. Then I swap out “aliens abducting people” (since we also have witnesses in those cases).
It does put it in perspective–for some people; but not for theists. Unfortunately, all they see is “But fairies don’t exist, and my god does, you’re being silly.” They don’t grasp that their god manifests in exactly the same way and level as fairies.
Hey all!
I’m starting up a group that doesn’t believe in unicorns. Would you like to waste your time with me and discuss something that doesn’t exist?
We’ll have so much fun!!
The athiests form groups to talk about a God that doesn’t exist… Why?
I don’t know but they seem to spend a lot of time thinking about it. So I thought I would start a unicorn group and do the same. Go to http://www.unicornsdonotexist.com
Forrest Prince,
Shame on you for being a hypocrite. Are you one of those athiests that feels you could do whatever you want, whenever you want? Why did you wish Ron a Happy New Year’s??? A true athiest would not celebrate New Year’s because that would be submitting to Jesus’ calendar. Oh, but you want to celebrate it because it’s “fun” right? But a true athiest should not. But of course, you could right? Athiests are hypocrites for not living out their “faith” of disbelieving God. Darwin’s theory is set on the standards of survival of the fittest. So why do you not live that way then? Out in the animal kingdom, the strong survive. Darwinists believe that but do not live that out. Now Hitler was a true athiest. People got in his way or threatened him so he removed them. He surely acted out what he believed while cowarding “athiests” play it safe by selfishly doing whatever or believing whatever they want but yet will still try to hold their “secular humanism” belief. Why would you be nice or be cordial to anyone? Where do you suppose that comes from? Do animals show mercy? NO! Why do you at times? Why would you be nice to people? If anyone gets in your way, what do you do about it? Would you do what Hitler did? If not, why? Is it wrong to do what he did or was he just living out what he truly believed? You are a relativist I’m sure, right? The problem is is that there is a right and wrong and you instinctively understand that. How? Our works is a reflection of our faith. Do you really live out your fiath of being an athiest? Or do you celebrate New Year’s, Holidays, write 2008 on your checks, use a dollar that says, “In God We Trust”. Boycott the dollar you hypocrite. Don’t breathe in the air that God created if you are an athiest. Act in accordance to how Hitler acted out his faith. Either way your faith is, everyone has faith in something. But is it true faith if you don’t act on it? Just curious
>A true athiest would not celebrate New Year’s
Let me just point out that as an atheist I’m under no compulsion to avoid celebrating religious holidays. In fact, I can celebrate holidays for whatever religion I like. Just as Buddhists can celebrate Xmas or any other religion’s holidays. I can even join Muslim’s for a Ramadan feast. No god to get upset about it.
I know plenty of Xians who incorporate Santa Claus in their festivities this time of year. Do you think they’re hypocrites–or that they must believe in Santa in order to sing “Here comes Santa Claus”?
Religious people’s minds are shackled with such restrictions. The atheist is free of such superstitious dogma as that.
A friend of mine once commented that she was surprised I don’t believe in alien mythology about abductions since I liked to watch X-Files. It was nuts when she put it forward–and it’s just as nuts when you do.
I can celebrate something or enjoy something even if I view it as mythological or fictional. I’m not bound by superstitious fears of such things. But I can’t expect some Xians/theists to be able to conceive of that sort of mental freedom.
Sad.
I should also point out that AD and BC were tacked onto the calendar centuries after the dates were already set. It’s not Xian at all. Just like most Xian “holidays” and events, it has nothing to do with Xianity, except that it was eventually hijacked and a thin Xian veneer was placed over it as Xians tried to claim it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_domino
“Though the Anno Domini dating system was devised in 525 it was not until the 8th century that the system began to be adopted in Western Europe.”
Forgiven man. Act in accordance to how Hitler acted out his faith. You know Hitler was a Catholic, don’t You? Just thought I’d ask
Forgiven man,
“Atheists are hypocrites for not living out their “faith”…”
I’m an atheist and I don’t have any faith.
“…submitting to Jesus’ calendar.”
Jesus had a calendar? I don’t remember reading that in the Bible. And I was unaware any church had declared January 1 to be a holiday. I celebrate it as the anniversary of the last gladiator fight in Rome, don’t you?
Who are these “Darwinists” you write about? I’ve looked everywhere and I cannot find any people who call themselves “Darwinists.” Are you sure you’re using the correct name? And how do you know what they believe, are you one of them?
“Darwin’s theory is set on the standards of survival of the fittest. So why do you not live that way then?”
I know I do. I’m enjoying watching your unfit “arguments” go down in flames.
“Boycott the dollar you hypocrite…”
I just mark out the part that says, “In God We Trust,” thus not passing along that bit of the Christian fairy tale.
“Don’t breathe in the air that God created if you are an athiest.”
I don’t. There was no God thus none of the air I breathe was created by God.
Happy New Years!
“I don’t remember reading that in the Bible. And I was unaware any church had declared January 1 to be a holiday.”
Catholicism treats it as a Holy Day of Obligation – meaning that Catholics are technically required to attend mass today. I suspect this is intended to curb drunken partying the night before.
Apparently it’s also the seventh day of Christmas (the day for seven swans a swimming).
The athiests form groups to talk about a God that doesn’t exist… Why?
I don’t know but they seem to spend a lot of time thinking about it.
If you have an attention span of more than five minutes or so, you’ll benefit from this link. But if’n yer not one o’ them learnin types, you can jus fergit it and keep on trollin’. At least that way, you can be banned a bit more expeditiously.
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/PromoteAtheism.htm