The complexity of life forms tends to make us believe that it could not have come about by itself and must have been crafted by someone with a plan in mind. A snowflake has a very symmetrical design and pattern. If you showed the drawing of a snowflake to someone who did not know what it was, that person probably would not believe that it was not drawn intentionally but was just a random creation. A few years ago I saw a complex photo while reading an article in a magazine. Again, it was a complicated but symmetrical design. Upon reading the text, it transpired that it was only a photo of a milk drop falling on a flat surface, magnified a hundred times!
There are many forces of nature, which have not been fully understood by us. Whenever we have not understood any natural process, we have been quick to assign its origin to a supernatural power. Fire, thunder, lightning, etc were given the status of gods in most ancient cultures. These are facile explanations that require no deep research. It would be more prudent to admit that we don’t understand a phenomenon and leave it that, rather than attribute it to a superpower of one’s imagination. The latter option only spreads and encourages false knowledge and belief.
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Is there any appreciable difference between attributing existence itself to a supernatural power after looking in awe at the complexity of the universe and attributing the forces of the sea to supernatural powers after looking in awe at the power of the oceans? In both cases people are left in wonder and confusion, not entirely understanding what has caused their circumstances but knowing that their fates may be largely or entirely out of their own hands. In both cases, rather than say "I don't know" and accept their own ignorance, people anthropomorphize natural forces and attribute aspects of nature to personal, but supernatural, beings who happen to act, think, and feel remarkably like human beings.
I don't think it's a coincidence that these supernatural beings can then be communicated with in a manner that might allow a person to imagine that they have more control over their own fates: a good ocean voyage might be ensured by making the right sacrifices to the sea gods while justice and happiness might be ensured by living according to the rules handed down by the sky gods. People don't like to be ignorant and they don't like to feel helpless; superstitious beliefs about anthropomorphic beings help alleviate both problems.
There is order in the universe. (”Complexity” is a term we sometimes use to describe this order.)
What would a universe without order look like? I don’t think it is possible to conceive of such a thing.
Order seems to be a function of existence. Nothing about “order” suggests that there must be such a thing as a “god”, only that it is a necessary characteristic of things that either do, or could, exist.
How did “god” sneak in there?
“Order” is a human idea. Moons, planets, and galaxies orbiting in predictable ways fit the human idea of order. So does matter organized into life forms as opposed to inert matter.
A different sentient species might view things differently. They might think that perfect order would be atoms spread evenly across space with no clumping into stars or galaxies. Such a view might cause said species to conclude that the universe was not designed.
Also, positing a supreme being which operates in a way which is nothing like the ways that we are familiar with (e.g., temporal causality, the 4 known forces, etc.), is the same as invoking a miracle. It has no real explanatory value. One can “explain” anything that way and it gets you nowhere. You can sacrifice to your god all you want and it still doesn’t work in a predictable way. Where then is the order in this kind of religious system?
“They might think that perfect order would be atoms spread evenly across space with no clumping into stars or galaxies.”
In terms of information theory this total entropy would be maximum “complexity” because it would require an expression as large as itself to describe itself. And yet we also use the word complexity in completely the opposite direction when, for instance, we speak of biological systems becoming more efficient.
“Irreducable complexity”, considered in this context, does not appear to be a term which refers to anything real in the universe.
I once described irreducible complexity like this:
It’s like putting forward that no natural animal can survive without a brain. Then finding a jellyfish; and, rather than admitting natural animals can exist without a brain, simply sticking to the view that it can’t exist naturally, and therefore, jellyfish must be supernatural.
Plain and simple:
. Or hey, check out all the different spheres we have that surrounds our earth in order for us to have life–wow! These accidents really keep us alive 
Everything is perfect and in order. SO “perfect” can not be by accident. Let alone an explosion (big-bang theory). By law, everything that explodes spins counter-clockwise. SO then why does our solar system and other orbiting planets spin in opposite directions of the explosion?
God is the creator…
How can our whole, entire existence be an accident? Everything is in perfect “order” in order for us to exist. For example (just a few of thousands): If the sun was any closer than it is, we would burn up. If it was any further from the earth, we would freeze. If the earth stopped (or even slowed down) we would explode. If the earth’s axis was tipped even an inch, we would explode. Check into the purpose and role the moon plays in order for us to exist. There are literally hundreds of purposes the moon plays. If ONLY one of its purposes seizes to function, we ALL seize to exist. There are thousands and thousands of variables that play a part in our existence on earth. If ONLY one variable (even from a far off planet like Mars) suddenly stops, we all seize to exist. Something as simple as gravity. Think about it if we did not have it. What would happen? “thank goodness for random accidents” huh… We are soooooo “lucky” that the moon helps us with gravity
How can we have evolved from another animal? Who decides which animals will evolve? And for what purpose? I’ve heard for survival purposes. Really? Were apes ever endangered?
Why did evolution stop?
Why are there no transitional fossils that Darwin himself said would be a problem with his “theory” if they are not found. Wait, evolution is just a “theory”, right? Wait, wait, SO is the “big-bang theory”?
It takes much much more faith that we got here by accident in the perfect form that we are in (human body) than to believe that God created the earth.
If the universe wasn’t suitable for us to exist in, we wouldn’t be here; this is true. So what? Why is something always in the last place where you look? Because when you find it, you stop looking.
Jesus wept. Our species DESERVES extinction I tell you…
Jesus Freak,
If you are serious about your questions, Talk Origins has links to a number of science sites with the answers you say you seek.
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/other-links.html
According to Xians who use ID, anything at all is “design” and “order.” Even a mass of radioactive vacuum and bursting supernovas, volcanoes, tsunamis, colliding asteroids…such order.
Nature has laws. The laws of Nature. Beyond natural laws–what evidence is there of any sort of further “order”? Is god merely the laws of physics and nature?
If so, why not be a pantheist? If nature evidences such awesome design–why not worship the very nature that evidences such awesome design? Why say X produced nature–where we can’t see X? Why not say, “nature looks really orderly to me,” and leave it at what you can actually observe?
It reminds me of another strand at another article where someone wanted to argue that brains are not the authors of intellect. I had to ask: Where have you seen anything BUT a brain produce intellect? And what happens to the intellect when the brain is damaged?
Where is the evidence that the brain requires some invisible force to do what we can observe (and have observed for some time now) it is quite capable of doing.
I see the brain produce intellect. I don’t see something else acting on the brain to produce intellect. So, it seems pretty logical to surmise brains produce intellect.
I don’t see the laws of nature any differently. I can observe nature and that it appears to have inherent natural laws (physical laws). These appear to be only human observations regarding how matter behaves. Matter does what matter does. How does that require a god? If it amazes you what matter does–why not use Occam’s Razor and simply worship matter? Why imagine an invisible, unobservable entity providing matter with the capacity to do what matter seems perfectly capable of doing on its own?
I enjoy tracieh comments; always to the point.
“These appear to be only human observations regarding how matter behaves. Matter does what matter does.”
Indeed. Just because we can speak of, for instance, the moon, it does not mean that the moon must be made of English!
Jesus Freak,
How can our whole, entire existence be an accident?
It’s not. The starting conditions for the universe were “accidental.” After that, the universe evolved according to natural, physical laws.
Everything is in perfect “order” in order for us to exist. . . . If ONLY one of its purposes seizes [sic] to function, we ALL seize [sic] to exist. There are thousands and thousands of variables that play a part in our existence on earth. If ONLY one variable (even from a far off planet like Mars) suddenly stops, we all seize [sic] to exist.
True, if any of those variables were different, we would not be here. But we are here. What does that say to you, based on current scientific knowledge?
Here’s what it says to me: The variables are what they are and preceded human life by billions of years. Life has evolved to survive in the pre-existing conditions of our universe. How could it be otherwise?
evolution is just a “theory”, right? Wait, wait, SO is the “big-bang theory”?
You (and many other anti-evolutionists) are misusing the word “theory.”
Starting in about the 20th century, scientists stopped calling new discoveries laws. They continued referring to such things as the “law of gravity,” which was propounded in the 17th century, because that’s what they were traditionally called.
Einstein’s theories of relativity have been proved beyond a reasonable doubt. They have passed enough empirical tests that they are as certain as previously discovered laws. Yet they are still referred to as theories, not laws. Had Einstein discovered his theories in the 18th century, we would now be referring to his “laws of relativity.”
According to an overwhelming majority of scientists, evolution has the status of what used to be called a law. Ever since Darwin, more and more kinds of evidence have been discovered (e.g., archaelogical, palaeontological, molecular biological), which have each lent more support to the law of evolution.
By contrast, the Bible is static. It contains known errors, contradictions, illogicalities, failed prophecies, etc. but it does not change. Some interpretations of the Bible have changed in the light of modern scientific discoveries. Unfortunately, fundamentalist interpretations have not changed.
No new evidence has turned up to make the Bible appear to be more than myth. On the contrary, evidence has been discovered that support the opposite conclusion. For example, archaelogists now say there is no evidence that Nazareth existed at the time Jesus supposedly walked the earth.
Even though the Bible is a cut-and-paste job from many fragments of old manuscripts, even though that Bible was put together, edited, selected, and translated by human beings, even though modern scholarship has found that there are mistranslations which affect doctrine, even though Christians have argued for centuries over every word in the Bible and still do argue, and even though doctrinal differences among devout Christians have caused Christianity to fragment into many denominations, fundamentalists still gamble on the inerrancy of the Bible.
Of course that is their right. You and anyone else may continue to believe whatever you please. But if you continue to deny the best science, you will be left farther and farther behind mainstream society in this country and in the world. It’s your choice. I choose science.
Jesus freak,(How can we have evolved from another animal? Who decides which animals will evolve? And for what purpose? I’ve heard for survival purposes. Really? Were apes ever endangered?
Why did evolution stop?)
You are so smart! Please explain to me the phenomena of human atavism. I have always wondered about it. It is beyond me, and I need to be enlightened. Thank you. Ron
Jesus Freak said:
“For example (just a few of thousands): If the sun was any closer than it is, we would burn up. If it was any further from the earth, we would freeze. If the earth stopped (or even slowed down) we would explode. If the earth’s axis was tipped even an inch, we would explode.”
Jesus Freak,
Yes, we know that our planet has some unique properties required for the existence of life. It is very likely that the vast majority of planets in the universe don’t have these properties, and therefore probably don’t support life. So, why does our planet have all the right attributes conducive to life, and not the 99.99999% of other planets in the universe? Well, the answer is that you need to be alive to ask that question in the first place, so this question is a no-brainer.
And as for the parts about the Earth exploding, I think you’ve watched far too many bad science fiction movies!
No matter how many times the Sun comes up in the morning, that does not prove their is a design. It only supports a hypothesis extremely well. Without the humble acceptance of knowledge as potentially hypothetical or limited, there is no room to breath.
One of the worst things about religion is that so much of its absolute truth is based on hearsay.
You guys are missing Freak’s point. There was no big bang or evolution because the bible says there wasn’t. Q.E.D.!
Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity is called a THEORY yet it led to the tens of thousands of atomic weapons with which we could wipe out this precious planet. The Theory of Evolution led a few scientists recently to look in specific geologic strata for a land dwelling/littoral ancestor of the whales. They predicted that such an animal would be found and the scientific sleuths found copious evidence for their hypothesis and search. The teeth of the beast held the exact kind of minerals that are found in the whales. By working through the THEORY of Evolution Science vindicated itself in this profound find.
So Jesus Freak do you believe in Astrology? The bible does. Job 39:31,32: Canst thou bind the sweet influences of the Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth the Mazzaroth in its season? Or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Perhaps Christians could spare a little of the money they spend on all the geegaws and lavish buildings of their faith and spend it instead on some good telescopes and find out how many sons Arcturus has.
LOL…LOL…Jesus Freak, you are a freak! Monkey logic……….
Paul Buchman noted that the interpretations of fundamentalists have not changed, but I disagree. There are many sections of the Bible that even the most conservative of Christians in the US do not interpret as their counterparts did a century and a half ago. Passages that justify slavery, punish minor offenses with brutal death and even demand that the faithful kill babies are blithely ignored by fundamentalists, who have to twist their interpretations of those passages when confronted with them to make such words acceptable to today’s standards and expectations. I’ve had some very interesting conversations around the Psalm that commands us to kill babies …
God is a waste of Time and Space.
Was your grandfather an ape? No, was your grandmother an ape? No. SHAZAAAAM, proof we did not “evolve” from apes!!!
I have heard X-ians actually use this in debates. I have some shazaaam logic of my own. The earth is flat. How do I know? The bible says “the four corners of the earth” in Revelation. Restated: The earth has 4 corners. Now… Look at a map and and count the corners of the page, I see One…Two…Three….Four. SHAZAAAAM, the earth is flat and the bible is right!
What/who makes us unique, concious, individual beings considering we are made of the same substance with corresponding organs, limbs, chromosones etc? Where does thought come from? Why is life sacred? If we dismiss the idea of a creator and everything that it/he/she embodies we are in danger of living in a sterilised selfish society where people work out of neccesity rather than love which impacts quality of production and quantity of time….wait….that sounds familier and feels horrible! If God exists then we (those who have accepted the truth) have an exciting future ahead of us and the world systems will not last, and if He doesn’t exist …then all the good things/events in the world happened for nothing!