Mailbag: Jesus & Ethics
Subject: Response to an article
Hello, this is a response to the Christian ethics and Jesus article..... I honestly feel badly for whomever wrote this article because he/she does not have the true knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Here, the concept of "true knowledge" seems to mean something like "beliefs which are in accordance with Kayla's religious dogmas." At no point is Kayla able or willing to identify any particular errors that were made, nor does shy point out where my "knowledge" was faulty. Instead, she argues that my theology is mistaken - emphasizing, for example, that people go to Hell simply due to their lack of faith in Jesus and regardless of what they know and what they do.
Personally, I do not think that "true knowledge" can reasonably be used as a label for agreeing with a person. If I lack "true knowledge" about something, then it should be possible ot provide evidence and arguments to demonstrate that I don't really know what I think I know - that I don't have the proper evidence and/or justifications for what I am claiming.
The most important point that I would like to address is that Jesus was a savior. Not a punisher. God sent Jesus into the world in order to save it. John 3:17 "God did not send Jesus in the world to condemn the world but to save it." The author of the article made the comment that Jesus preached that if one did not follow his teachings then he or she would be sent to hell. While this is true, if one did not believe what Jesus taught which was that he was and is the savior, then yes he or she will go to hell.
The presence of a carrot doesn't mean that the stick disappears. Sending Jesus to save the world doesn't change the fact that people who don't believe get sent to Hell - a Hell which exists only because God (who is also Jesus) wants it to. Infinite punishment for finite crimes cannot considered just or moral under any conceivable definitions of those terms.
There is also the question of whether punishment for belief, any belief, can possibly be considered just. Remember, even if a person is child rapist and child murderer, the real reason they are sent to Hell is because of their lack of faith in Jesus. Should they attain such faith just before dying, they would go to heaven - regardless of what they did before, which means that they aren't punished for those crimes. But how can a lack of faith in Jesus be considered a "crime" which merits punishment, especially when the rape and murder of children isn't?
Why? Becuase Jesus was sent to the world to die for the sins that we as humans commit. he took the punishment that God could have bestowed upon us. What should we have faith in you ask? We need to have faith that Jesus was in fact the savior who came into the world, took our sins and bore them on the cross so that we may be forgiven. That's something to have faith in.
If a person is going to believe such a thing, it's only going to be through "faith" (in the religious sense) because there aren't any good reasons to do if we were going to rely on standards like evidence and logic. However, I wouldn't be as inclined to describe it as "something to have faith in" as I would to describe it as "something to repudiate as immoral."
Supposedly, Jesus was perfectly innocent, which means that being punished for any crimes at all, much less the crimes committed by others, was unjust and immoral. For me to try and take advantage of that would also be unjust and immoral. Granted, it's awfully nice for the offer to be made, but that doesn't mean that taking advantage of the offer suddenly becomes just.
More selections from the Agnosticism / Atheism Mailbag...
Comments
Sometimes I wonder if letters like this are authentic or people are just trying to push your button. If it is authentic, the writer is clearly ignorant, but most probably raised that way and was unable to sort these issues out as an adult. In a way, we should pity the writer. However, being that people who think this way have gained power through politics and want to rule by scripture, the pity only goes so far (and has already reached its limit so far as I am concerned). One last comment. It is very difficult to get millions of people to stop believing in something (even as false as religion) without offering a replacement. That’s a major reason why religion has persisted in the face of logic. What is that replacement? I’m still thinking on it.
for all the talk of christian ethics being faulty and/or false or not ethical at all. i have yet to find an atheist who gives me a good reason to be “ethical” or follow any moral rules that they say are moral.
(I have yet to find an atheist who gives me a good reason to be “ethical” or follow any moral rules that they say are moral0.
I always try to do the right thing, because doing the right thing is the right thing to do. Works for me. This is not to say it would work for you.
but what is the right thing?
Maybe that’s because you don’t try to engage any atheists in serious, substantive dialogue. You post random things here and then claim to have “serious” conversations about atheists with other Christians.
When I am called upon to do the right thing,it always seems to come to me what the right thing is. Until then, I don’t worry about it. I have a strong feeling that you also do this, whether you admit it or not.
Maybe that’s because you don’t try to engage any atheists in serious, substantive dialogue. You post random things here and then claim to have “serious” conversations about atheists with other Christians.
i don’t ever remember saying i talked about atheist to other christians. if you are still talking about the Cobb thing i remember that you said Cobb was christian. therefore i was talking about christians to other christians. and if you are so interested in what they have to say why do you not go and ask them instead of getting angry because i did not want to post other people’s ideas for them? and here i was asking Ron a question to which he was giving a good answer and you come and complain about things that have nothing to do with what my question was.
When I am called upon to do the right thing,it always seems to come to me what the right thing is. Until then, I don’t worry about it. I have a strong feeling that you also do this, whether you admit it or not.
I will agree with you on that one. When faced with certain situations i act exactly like you would. However, when you get to more subtle ideas of what is right or what is wrong how do you differentiate then?
randomguy: Arguing with some people is something like mud-wrestling with a pig, because sometimes you get the feeling that the pig enjoys it!
Randomguy Now that I had my little joke.
Re: The right thing; Here is a moral question for you. Iraq. OIL. Would our country be there if they had no oil? If you were the president, You would know that oil to our country is no different than the blood that flows in your veins. Is military action justified? Is that too subtle? Initially, we were given other reasons for the war, but we know better, don’t we? There is a good question about ethics.
It was, however, something you saw here and a perspective which I was advancing. One way or another, you were given a clear chance to engage in substantive dialogue — something you claimed to seek even though you never tried it — and failed. That, in turn, is a good place to start looking for a reason why you haven’t heard more from atheists.
I’m actually Canadian
but thats an awesome question. you see i believe that military action is unjustified.
1. i believe to invade a country and kill so many people for just Oil is just wrong.
2. even with the pretense of brining to them democracy so many lives have been wasted due to lack of preparation.
however there was one argument for what is moral as being what is good for society. so if it is better for the American society to go and invade the country for the oil is it moral?
I know people who will stand by that definition of morality and claim that it is not evil to invade another country for its resources. but if that is justified in the large scale why would stealing or burglary be wrong?
It was, however, something you saw here and a perspective which I was advancing. One way or another, you were given a clear chance to engage in substantive dialogue — something you claimed to seek even though you never tried it — and failed. That, in turn, is a good place to start looking for a reason why you haven’t heard more from atheists.
i seek to give my ideas and mine only. i do not give the ideas of others. and so if you wish to look for their ideas be free to do so. and it is not true to say i have not heard more from atheist. i just have not heard more from you. if you truly wished to get the ideas of other christians maybe you should make an effort to ask them instead of me what their ideas are on it. and i have had many interesting and thought provoking conversations with many atheists. Some on this website who are full of very interesting and great ideas, like Ron or for instance. And from other sites, and from real-life conversations. i have heard plenty of different ideas from many atheist. however, you are just not one of them.
So, you’re just hear to preach and not to engage in substantive conversation.
You’re lying. You already said in a previous comment that “i have yet to find an atheist who gives me a good reason to be “ethical” or follow any moral rules that they say are moral.” As I already responded: maybe the reason is because you don’t try to engage any atheists in serious, substantive dialogue. You certainly haven’t done so in any of your comments on this site - and I’ve read them all. You are far more interested in repeating what you think than in learning what others think.
So, you’re just hear to preach and not to engage in substantive conversation. i don’t preach. by giving my ideas i meant if i am questioned on an issue i provide my ideas. not the ideas of others.
You’re lying. You already said in a previous comment that “i have yet to find an atheist who gives me a good reason to be “ethical” or follow any moral rules that they say are moral.” As I already responded: maybe the reason is because you don’t try to engage any atheists in serious, substantive dialogue. You certainly haven’t done so in any of your comments on this site - and I’ve read them all. You are far more interested in repeating what you think than in learning what others think.
actually i have heard a lot from many atheist. however just because i have heard their ideas does not mean i have am satisfied in their reasoning. learning what others think and agreeing with what others think is two different things.
I would call it preaching to go on at length about how Christians can’t be held complicit for what has been done in the name of Christinaity then, when challenged, suddenly lose your taste for the issue. You have a lot to say when not challenged, but decline the opportunity for any serious discussion on the matter — at least, when that discussion involves atheists. You’ll talk at them, though, which is preaching.
Given your disinterest in substantive dialogue with atheists, I wouldn’t expect many to spend time trying explain things to you in much detail. You have never offered a substantive argument on behalf of any of your claims. You have never demonstrated any concern with the importance of sound arguments or verifiable evidence. Everything has instead been entirely superficial and at times even incoherent. I had to ask you several times what you were trying to say and I don’t think I got a straight answer even once. At this point, I have to question whether even you entirely understand what you’re trying to say. I think you’ve got a long way to go to understand substantive arguments and dialogue.
So, what is ethical behavior?
1. Acting in your own best interest.
2. Having a good understanding of what your own best interest is.
Some examples:
Fifteen years ago, I quit my factory job and started a business servicing commercial laundry equipment. How did I succeed over much of my competition? By basing my business policy on honesty, integrity, ethical behavior. It was in my own best interest to do so. Word gets around. And when I began to succeed, I didn’t forget what it was that got me there. Acting in my own best interest.
Now on to the subject of oil.
When you are sitting on a major source of energy, and are selling it to the world community along with the benefits also come certain responsibilitys to the world community. So, you see, Saddam Hussein thought he was acting in his own best interest, but he did not have a good understanding of what his own best interest really was. And what did it get him? A noose.
I like to have good friends who I can know are true friends. how do I do this? By being a good and true friend. There are no short-cuts. Again by being a good friend, I am acting in my own best interest. There some squirrels on my property that trust me enough to take peanuts from my hand. How did I get this trust? I earned it. Even a squirrel understands this. I could go on and on with examples such as these.
Now to the good Christian people that I know and observe. They claim to be operating on the ethics of Jesus, when what they are really doing is acting in their own best interest just like me. I got eyes. I’m not blind.
RandomGuy: A good reason to be ethical? What about not going to jail (just as Christians follow their morals to avoid going to hell)? How about being able to walk on the streets with a reasonable certainty that you won’t be mugged, raped or murdered? How about helping those in need now so that once you are in need later, you’ll be helped as well?
To me, “doing the right thing” comes down to my effect on others. Murder, theft, and rape are bad because they’re counter-productive to a functioning society.
I help others when I can in my day-to-day activities. Holding the door open for someone, alerting them if they drop something, looking up the phone number off someone’s ID and calling them that they left their purse in the grocery store parking lot, etc. That last example was when I pushed carts for a living. When the woman came back, she was in tears, thanking me. She tried to give me some money, but I refused. I did that not because I was trying to earn good karma or whatever, but rather because I have basic empathy for my fellow man.
Now, other things, like masturbation, which are seen as “immoral” by others, has absolutely no effect on anyone else. To anyone who has a problem with me doing that, you can bugger off.
(masturbation)
It is a well known fact that this is a major cause of blindness And blindness will cause you to become a burden on society, and this effects all of us!
“for all the talk of christian ethics being faulty and/or false or not ethical at all. i have yet to find an atheist who gives me a good reason to be “ethical” or follow any moral rules that they say are moral. ”
Perhaps, but the only way theists can have anything different that I have seen is claim that their god has moral opinions and then that these are somehow objective.
Or use pascal’s wager, but I would guess most believers don’t follow their religion because of this, and those that do would be embarrased to admit it.
Oh please, I’ve been jacking off since I was 14, and my eyesight is as good as it’s ever been!
i have yet to find an atheist who gives me a good reason to be “ethical” or follow any moral rules that they say are moral.
Randomguy: Feel free to explain what would be a “good reason” to be “ethical” i.e. why you think it a good reason, and particularly, what ethical means. You could also give us a few examples of the presumably “bad reasons” you’ve been given by atheists up to now, explaining why you do not consider them satisfactory. If you manage this, you’ll go a long way to convince people that it is serious dialogue you’re interested in, and are also capable of it.
Then, just for fun, explain how Austin is supposed to track down the undisclosed seminary students you allegedly had a conversation with to ask their opinion.
randomguy, is it actually possible for an atheist to meet your standards?
well when you say acting on your best interest you must ask what about robbers and thieves? are they not acting on their own best interest? seeker made a good point when he said how about not going to jail. however does that mean that it is only unethical because one is put in jail? does that mean as long as one can be “unethical” and avoid jail then is the actions of that said person ethical? Ron you gave a great example of acting on your best interest when you said you run a company and it succeeds because you won’t take advantage of your loyal customers. (congratulations on your success btw) and it makes sense as you said your best interest was to stay good and be honest for it gave you the success you deserved. however, if there is a businessman who can control a company be unethical steal millions of dollars of assets and doesn’t get indicted is their actions moral or not? that man still looked out for his best interest and that is why he was able to slip through the cracks of the law.
if looking out for one’s best interest is what morality is what defines someone’s best interest?
joseph:
i would agree with you that most the time when people make “moral” choices they do it for the sake of doing it. empathy for their fellow man. and i do the same i don’t always think WWJD when some1 asks for help or requires assistance i just do it instinctively. but if we are going to be moral for the sake of being moral. what is morality?
i don’t really have any standards really. i mean my roomie/bestfriend is as moral as you can get. and i don’t think for any reason i am any more moral than he is. however, when i ask him why he is good or do what he considers right, i have not yet been able to get the answer why. it does not change the fact that he is a good person. however, i still question what defines him as good as opposed to a person who doesn’t do the same things.
(well when you say acting on your best interest you must ask what about robbers and thieves? are they not acting on their own best interest)? Randomguy. Go back and read again post 17, items 1 and 2 Pay close attention to item #2.2. Having a good understanding of what your own best interest is. Robbers and thieves do not have a good understanding.
lolz that i agree with. thank you Ron for sharing your ideas with me. i shall think on them some more and do more research in the field of morality and ethics. for now thank you and good night =). (btw you have been most gracious in being so accommodating to my questions)
(if there is a businessman who can control a company be unethical steal millions of dollars of assets and doesn’t get indicted is their actions moral or not? that man still looked out for his best interest and that is why he was able to slip through the cracks of the law.
if looking out for one’s best interest is what morality is what defines someone’s best interest)? Randomguy. If we lived in a perfect world, we would call it utopia, wouldn’t we? I understand your question, but consider this. A scenario: let us suppose that you,I, and a third person set up a business in the same area, performing the same service. You treat your customers in a moral ethical way. I do the same. But third person screws his customers. Whats going to happen? Eventually, you and I get to slug it out to get his customers, and neither you nor I will get them by screwing them. Thats how the system is supposed to work. I admit that it doesn’t always. Now witness Ken Lay. Had a fatal heart while awaiting trial. would you say that he paid a price? Or did he get away with It?
i would think that he didn’t really get to enjoy the last few years of his life. and the heart attack might even have been caused by the stress of the trial etc. however besides that did he get away with it? he got away without jail yes. but if it means that one has to die to get away with the things they do “for their best interest” it doesn’t really sound like their best interest. yea he “got away” with it. but getting away with it at the cost of his life doesn’t seem like a great choice. however, if his heart attack wasn’t caused by the events around him (unlikely) then one can say that he didn’t pay the price. but i would say he has already paid the price. and his family would prolly have to continue to pay the price.
Another scenario: You are walking down a street. You look down an alley and see woman being attacked. 1. you say to yourself, none of my business,and continue on your way, 2. or you go to the aid of the person being attacked. Bottom line: If You do the thing that will leave you feeling good about yourself, you would be acting in your own best interest. Sounds selfish, but that’s how it is
pus you helped a person. now i like your points they are good. thanks again for sharing.
umm ignore that now
I understand when Athiests say that people who follow a god is a hypocrite… But I just wanted to clarify that “true” Christians know that we are not good, but forgiven. See, man’s nature is sinful. We ALL sin. There may be some people that claim to be better than others with their behaviors and morals but ultimately, they also sin. Whether you are an Athiest, Muslim, Catholic, Jehovah’s Witness, Christian, etc. we ALL sin. I hope this poem below would provide an understanding of how true Christians are humble to know that we fall short of holiness. NOBODY can maintain perfect morality. That is why we put our faith in Jesus Christ to forgive us of our sinfulness. “I am not a good man, but a forgiven man”…
When I say…”I’m a Christian”
I’m not shouting “I’m clean livin”.
I’m whispering” I was lost,
Now I’m found and forgiven.
When I say…”I’m a Christian”
I don’t speak of this with pride.
I’m confessing that I stumble
and need Christ to be my guide.
When I say…”I am a Christian”
I’m not trying to be strong.
I’m professing that I’m weak
and need His strength to carry on.
When I say…”I am a Christian”
I’m not bragging of success.
I’m admitting I have failed
and need God to clean my mess.
When I say…”I am a Christian”
I’m not claiming to be perfect,
My flaws are far too visible
But, God believes I am worth it.
When I say…”I am a Christian”
I still feel the sting of pain.
I have my share of heartaches
So I call upon His name.
When I say…”I am a Christian”
I’m not holier than thou,
I’m just a simple sinner
Who received God’s good grace, somehow!
Share this with somebody who already has this
understanding as reinforcement. More importantly,
share this with those who do not….
May your day be filled with many blessings
(When I say…”I am a Christian”
I’m not claiming to be perfect,
My flaws are far too visible
But, God believes I am worth it.)
Nor do I claim to be perfect. But I maintain that it will be easier for you to be a BETTER Christian if you have a good understanding as to why acting in your own best interest is the REAL reason that you try to do good. I have an evangelical friend. He is a fairly decent person in spite of his evangelicalism. Grin. He thinks he lives his life the way he does for Jesus, But I observe that he’s really acting in his own best interest, just like me!
May I ask who Austin Cline is?
I checked your “credentials/education” and quite factually, you hold no weight. I am sorry if this may be a little rude (I am not trying to be) but I am just stating a simple fact. Up against scholars, men with an extreme education, PHD’s, etc. who are you?
I stumbled across this website by mistake. I read through most of your forum and found a lot a lot a lot of ignorance (meaning, lacking knowledge). There is quite a lot of assumption. Granted, you did well allowing both sides to make their argument. Check out DR. James Kennedy. Granted, all athiests would disagree with him but they (one’s with an education) respect his position(s) and credibility. He is “quality”. You–I’m sorry but “no”. You are young yet. You will learn. Until then, understand your limitations. Know your role as a squirrel in this world trying to get a nut just as I am. Even if you receive any kind of self-glorification, just remember that your days are numbered like everyone else. Before you know it my friend, you will be old and grey asking yourself what did you actually achieve in this life. What did you really do? Accomplish? Will anyone care? Then, when you are lying on your death bed and face the torturing reality that you will die, you will be afraid and with much regret. The reality of death may not be in your sights right now but again, the reality will be here before you know it. Time flies and life is short… It is time to start thinking about humbling yourself and submitting what is COMPLETELY out of your control–death. Will you spend eternity in Heaven or Hell? I’m sure you do not believe that there is a Hell. But would you be willing to bet your eternal life on it? If you lose your wager, you have MUCH more to lose than a Christian. If the Bible is wrong and we all just die and nothing happens–no afterlife. We just seize to exist. Nobody will be around to rub it in and say, “see, I told you so. There is no Heaven–ha ha!”… BUT, if the Bible is true, and you are wrong, you will spend eternity in Hell. There will be everlasting regret, torment, and gnashing of teeth. In conclusion, you have much more to loose!
Please embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Savour to forgive you of your sins and have eternal life in paradise. God loves you! Jesus died in your place on the cross to pay your debt. Eternal life is a FREE gift. NO religion can save us, just Jesus. DO not fall into the lies of religion and false perception of what the world offers. Things of the earth will die, but heavenly things will live forever.
God bless,
Jesus Freak
But Ron, you are neglecting to see your friend’s heart (which you can’t-it is impossible isn’t it). Only God knows his heart, not you
. You are absolutely that Christians must strive to do better. I am convicted of that often. But again, only God knows my heart. The process of sanctification does not happen over night. It is a process to become more like Christ. Again, note that I am not a “good” man, but a “forgiven” man…
God bless, Ron,
Jesus Freak
Uhg, don’t give us that “we’re forgiven” crap. That’s what really annoys me about Christianity. Even more so then the hellfire and brimstone types. As if being human is inherently wrong, and you should spend your whole like atoning for every stupid little thing. It’s just screams pompous snob. And don’t give me that “original sin” garbage either. If every human is born destined to suffer for eternity, then your god is one sick bastard.
Jesus Freak:
Based on what you wrote, you don’t believe in Jesus. You fear death and are so afraid of the unknown that you think something false is true, but it’s only out of fear. I don’t sense a sincere belief after reading your senseless rant above.
Freak, answer me this:
What happpened to all of the people in world who never had the chance to learn about/believe in Jesus? Did they all go to hell through no fault of their own? If you say yes, then god is not loving and just. If you say no, then please tell me where it states this, so I know it is just not your opinion. Also, the big problem with the bible is that the people who swear by it use the contents of the book as the proof of the book. Do you see the faulty logic of that scenario? Gee, I will guess that you can’t.
As for me, I’m just about through posting here. Everything I say is just ignored. Might as well just keep it to myself.
Marc,
.
I do believe in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. He won victory over death when He ressurected. We have NOTHING to fear-not even death. “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Phil 1:21). “My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better” (Phil. 1:24). Now, this does not mean that I am looking to die, but it simply means that death has no power over me. If the Lord calls me home, I will not fear it but desire to be with Him in eternity. I do not fear death, Marc
Second question:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things” (Romans 1:18-23).
Marc, God has revealed Himself through His attributes. His glory is everywhere
. When we look around at creation, we know that it was NOT all an accident. We know that there is a creator. Just as when we see a painting, we know that a painter painted it, how else did the canvas get painted? The truth is is that people see God’s attributes but as verse 18 says, “the unrighteousness supress the truth”. God’s divine nature is everywhere.
I GUARANTEE that everyone has heard of Jesus Christ. Did you know that 98% of the entire world heard of Coca-Cola (they did a consensus)? They have only been around for 100 years… Jesus has been around much longer, right? God reveals Himslef throuh people as well. Christian missionaries are spread out all over the world (even to the most far off islands not on the map).
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible” (Hebrews 11:1-3).
ps. There is not faulty logic in the Bible. The only illogical thinking is denying the existence of God. Please read again the wager above. Taking a wager that will only grant you loss is not a good bet to take (logically
).
God bless,
Marc
Uhg, don’t give us that “we’re forgiven” crap. That’s what really annoys me about Christianity.
Interesting, why does that annoy you?
Why does what Christians do bother you?
You know, I was watching “The Grinch that stole Christmas” and I totally related his situation with Athiests. Why did the people’s joy and happiness really bother him? It turns out that he wanted to be loved just like everyone else.
You seem to know something about “origianl sin”. Why is that? Why must you care? Why do you spend time debating, criticizing, attacking Christians, God? You deny the existence of God, so why do you spend time discussing something that does not exist? I do not discuss (even obsess) about things that do not exist. It is a waste of my time. But the truth is is that something is stirring up in you
I also found it interesting that you would choose to use the kind of language you did to address the Lord. Why choose to hate? Why “hate” something that does not exist (according to you)?
Why do athiest announce that they deny the existence of God? Why not just leave it alone. I do not waste my time screaming what I do not believe in and join groups to talk it over with others. Why does one athiest care to hear about another athiest’s view on how they disbelieve in God?
I have some good news for you…
God loves you!
God bless,
Jesus Freak
Jesus Freak… I’d like to say you are brainwashed, but that would imply you had a brain.
You never answered one of my questions. I will rephrase it: Let’s say a baby is born one hour ago but dies without getting to believe in Jesus. Does the baby go to hell? If so, why? If not, why (and the answer can’t be your opinion).
Also, your wager scenario is faulty. I can just as easily say that the bible is the devil’s trick and that those who believe in it will actually be the ones to go to the hell that you so believe in.
Christian missionaries are spreading their sickness around the globe, nothing more. They are despicable. If they want to help people, great and commendable, but leave the religion part out of it.
Your beliefs are illogical but you are so steeped in it that nothing can be said here to change your mind. Not that I was trying to or care one way or the other. If you wish to believe the falsehoods that you do, so be it. But when Christians try to legislate their faith through Government, they’ve gone to far. So basically, keep your insanity to yourself. You’d think after G. W. Bush that people would see through that phony Jesus talk, but yet the politicians are using it again.
And one last thing, you should consider shortening your name to just freak. After all, you shouldn’t use your lord’s name in vain, right?
Okay, I have a good one here… Why does Austin seem to resort to calling people liars? That is an interesting response… Why do you take that approach? It is acutally quite funny when I have read many of your repetitive responses by calling people Liars. Also, I have noticed (repeatedly) that many accuse you of not answering the question(s). You dance around them and try to twist things. People ask you a direct question but somehow seem to flip things around and make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Keep up the good comedy routine. It makes me laugh. I see right through your insecurities
. It is quite pathetic actually. You hide behind your “big” words and fancy way of talking. Keep up the good work. You are going places guy 
Jesus Freak… Was that last incoherent tirade yours? I think it was. You’ve been unravelled. You seem confused.
Marc,
Why take the immature route of name-calling and sarcasm? I read in Psychology 101 that sarcasm is a defense mechanism for an insecurity. Is this true? Or are the educated and qualified doctors wrong, and you are right?
No comment on your “brain” remark. I don’t resort to childishness.
I did not choose to call you names or cut you down in any way. Why did you choose to use hatred towards me? Can you be cordial?
Good question about the baby not knowing of Jesus before death. It is one of the biggest questions asked. Many will say that it is for those who are “able” to know Christ. A baby is not yet capable of “knowing”. The baby does not yet have reason, so the baby cannot also not reject God as well. It’s neutral. The baby cannot yet disbelieve in God either. Bottom line, babies go to Heaven.
“Also, your wager scenario is faulty. I can just as easily say that the bible is the devil’s trick and that those who believe in it will actually be the ones to go to the hell that you so believe in”.
But see you CAN’T “say” the devil is playing a trick because the devil would not exist either, right? No God, no devil…
Even if you did believe in the devil, you could not be an athiest then. Athiest disbelieve in a god. A god in accordance to athiests is any god, not just the Christian God.
Besides, who believes that the devil exists, and not God? That is too much (even for an athiest).
“Your beliefs are illogical but you are so steeped in it that nothing can be said here to change your mind. Not that I was trying to or care one way or the other”.
Why would you want to change my mind about believing in God? God saved me from wrath, Hell. He has blessed me tremendously! I have a meaning and purpose in life and know that I am loved. What does the alternative offer? So, again, why should I deny the fact that I will someday have eternal life in paradise for a belief that when you die, there is nothing but darkness (nothingness)? Let’s see, a hope for heaven or a dark view of no afterlife. I think I will stay as a follower of Jesus Christ
.
I don’t agree when people say they “don’t care” when they seemed to have cared enough to waste their time explaining it. And, I thought you weren’t replying because people were ignoring you.
Do athiests care whether they are ignored? If so, where does that desire to “not be ignored” come from?
The good news is is that it is not too late for you Marc.
God loves you too!
P.S. Shortening my name to freak and leaving out Jesus? Please explain how that is using Jesus’ name in vain? I would like your answer to that please
God bless,
Jesus Freak
JF, come back when you can trot out something other than banal platitudes and paraphrased scripture.
Blessed are the peacemakers… love your neighbour… do unto others… These are the three things Jesus said I agree with. However, his main message was that the world would end within one generation, and that was pure rubbish.
You may; in doing so, you demonstrate that you cannot rebut my arguments. If you could you would; since you can’t, you attempt to discredit them by attacking me personally.
Pascal’s Wager is a weak argument and one which I have rebutted already.
Please understand that these comments are not here for you to practice your evangelization techniques. If all you can do is preach; then leave. If you want to have real conversations, then you’ll have to substantially change the way you interact with others.
You don’t think that people who lie should have this pointed out?
Feel free to support these accusations.
Also, I’m curious why you would be posting under multiple IDs. Is there something wrong with sticking with just, say, “Jesus Freak”?
Freak-
You wrote:
I have some good news for you…
God loves you!
Writing that opened you up to the name calling. Don’t you see the logic in that?
Regarding my wager scenario. You said I can’t use that because I don’t believe in god or the devil. Wow. Did you even read what I wrote? I can write that because I stated it as an alternative to your current beliefs and was giving YOU a different way to look at something that YOU already believe in. I will here repeat what I stated above: I can just as easily say that the bible is the devil’s trick and that those who believe in it will actually be the ones to go to the hell that you so believe in.
My question about babies remains unanswered. You gave me an opinion (i.e., Many will say”) based on logic. That part was good. But now you have to bring that logic to its ultimate conclusion… you believe in something that isn’t true. And you wrote something interesting. You wrote that babies won’t go to hell because they aren’t capable of knowing Christ. But the same can be said for someone who was raised by parents in a different religion, say an orthodox Jew. Can an orthodox Jew really be expected to know this alleged Christ? Of course not. So the system you believe in is inherently unfair. It means that millions of people are born and doomed to hell from birth. Sounds crazy, but YOU believe in it. And I still say it’s out of fear which you don’t want to admit to.
Adios, JF.
JF — Rumor is, you’ve “seen the light” and become and agnostic. What say you?
It never ceases to amaze me how many evangelical types pop out of the woodwork to spout their “Love God or you will go to hell.” message or some variation thereof simply because they think atheists are somehow “angry” at an invisible sky man. I guess it never occurs to them that not all atheists were members of a religion, some of them were irreligious when they were younger never giving religion much thought since it was never important to them.
“…they think atheists are somehow “angry” at an invisible sky man…”
Perhaps they feel guilty. Guilty they worship a God who, according to their own book, is a visious psycho killer. Perhaps they believe they should be angry with their God, if only they weren’t so afraid of him.
“Perhaps they believe they should be angry with their God, if only they weren’t so afraid of him.”
Maybe they should do what the Klingons did to their gods according to Star Trek lore; kill it because it is more trouble than it is actually worth. Unfortunately, the evangelicals are so convinced their lifestyle is the right one that it should be forced onto others who want nothing to do with it.
Perhaps they believe they should be angry with their God, if only they weren’t so afraid of him.
John, that is really a good point. If there’s any one accurate label that can be applied to the major religions, it can be that they have all simply been the biggest display and case study of the “Stockholm Syndrome” that has ever thrust itself unto the psychological and psychiatric communities.
Wikipedia defines it as “…a psychological response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed.”
Apologeticsindex.org adds this:
“‘When someone has the ability to make life or death decisions about you it’s powerful,’ she added. ‘When they show you any kindness, brainwashing is possible.’
Gregg McCrary, a retired FBI profiler, detailed a scenario that could result in Stockholm syndrome: The abductor threatens to kill the victim, establishing fear; when the abductor changes his mind, the victim feels gratitude toward him.”
It fits most uncannily precisely with what the more extremist or evangelical ilk of today’s religions often display, and with their overzealous descriptions of god. The presence of heaven, and perhaps more arguably, hell, creates this “moral” tightrope these theists feel they must walk as a necessary hostage by the mere decree of their maker, ever mindful of his wrath, yet ever loving when he perks up a bit and offers them a break along the way.
It seems there’s no place for hatred in this scheme lest the maker discovers such discontent and hurls them off the rope, and so the circus act continues, with naught but a smile on the acrobat’s face.
Earlier in this thread, Jesus Freak posted a remixed version of a poem originally written by Carol Wimmer, unattributed and presumably without permission from the copyright holder. I propose that this qualifies as unethical behavior, which is ironic, considering the focus of this article.
Christians claim their god to be the sole legitimate arbiter of morality. Right, would that by any chance be the same god who slaughtered the first born child of every Egyptian family in what could only be described as a GHASTLY ACT OF GENOCIDE all because he had fallen out with the Pharaoh? Would that by any chance be the same god who rewards by sending to heaven mass murderers purely and simply for believing in him,’accepting his Son Christ as saviour’ and ’showing gratitude for salvation’, while punishing with eternal damnation morally decent non-Christians for no other reason than not believing in him and/or not showing appreciation for what was either an act of madness or a grossly immoral perversion of justice? Would that by any chance be the same god who elevated the Israelis to a position of superiority over everyone else and declared a ’special covenant’ with them?
Face it, the god of the Bible is anything but loving. He is nothing but a racist, homophobic, genocidal, infanticidal, egotistical psychopath! Even if such a scumbag, nutcase god did exist, there’s no way on this planet I’d worship him! Instead, I’d spend every ounce of energy I had punching the hell out of him (which means beating thin air, since he’s supposed to be immaterial)! I think it’s utterly contemptible that anyone would even think of such a god as being vaguely worthy of praise!
Born-again atheist:
There is no hope for you and you will burn in hell for your blasphemy. I for one will look down and laugh at you when you start praising God and he won’t come to your rescue. I am sure he will just hand you a copy of your last post and say “Wasn’t this you that said this? Keep burning.” I really wish I lived a thousand years ago when I would have been able to smite people like you who blaspheme the Lord God. And how dare you call yourself “born again” atheist and disrespect what it really means to accept the gift of God of truly being born again.
So, do you consider it moral and righteous to approve of another person suffering for all eternity? Isn’t that the sort of thing which should make you sad?
Does that strike you as a moral and just attitude? If so, why?
Why?
Why do you think that the subject merits any more respect than it was given?
Hello Random Guy. Credit to you for coming back to this thread and responding even though outnumbered.
I have a quote from you:
“well when you say acting on your best interest you must ask what about robbers and thieves? are they not acting on their own best interest? seeker made a good point when he said how about not going to jail. however does that mean that it is only unethical because one is put in jail? does that mean as long as one can be “unethical” and avoid jail then is the actions of that said person ethical? . . . however, if there is a businessman who can control a company be unethical steal millions of dollars of assets and doesn’t get indicted is their actions moral or not? that man still looked out for his best interest and that is why he was able to slip through the cracks of the law.
if looking out for one’s best interest is what morality is what defines someone’s best interest?”
I have a few questions for you. The population of the United States (I’m Canadian too BTW, but can’t find Cdn stats) according to The Pew Center (a religious polling group) is 18% non-religious, 3% Muslim/Jewish, and 79% Christian. Why is the US prison population 99.8% religious, and 0.02% non-religious?
Why is it that theists ask how atheists can be moral, yet it is theists causing all the crime? In Europe, there are much lower crime rates and much lower levels of religiosity. Coincidence? It seems not, from the US example.
This all being the case, the real question is not whether or not atheists, who internalise universal human societal ethics, can be ethical. The real question is, why do those with religious belief have a much lower rate of internalising ethical values than those who chose to reject religion?
Cheers.
Man is not a moral actor. He is a moralizer. The world is made up of crooks, suckers, and lazy cowards.
—I really wish I lived a thousand years ago when I would have been able to smite people like you who blaspheme the Lord God.
Fewer more transparent reasons to ban religious fundamentalism as a dangerous, subversive activity exist then this devoted rant. Fewer more transparent examples exist of why the faithful among us pine for the good old days of roast witch on a stick. People of this ilk spend their days figuring out new ways to strap explosives to themselves. May they trial and error to their souls content.
—The world is made up of crooks, suckers, and lazy cowards.
John, I can’t say for sure, but I am quite sure I have read this before from you in another thread. The world does not have to be so depressing. The people around you are starved for empathy, experience and justice. Many live by this humanistic code.
Let it start with us. We can become more than what we have been, not to appease a middle-eastern warlord god, but simply because we can become more than what we are. The alternative is a world full of “turn-the-other-cheekers” and “blessed peacemakers” like Warrior for Christ. Heaven forbid, pun intended.
First of all, I would like to thank Mr Cline and Nate Mullikin for their intervention on my behalf. Secondly, Warrior for Christ, I would like to reiterate that I find it utterly contemptible that you find worthy of worship and praise a deity who committed HORRIFIC acts against humanity that compare with those carried out by the worst tyrants of the last century, and who punishes people with eternal damnation for no reason other than for not believing in him and/or acknowledging and showing gratitude for his ’sacrifice’, while simultaneously rewarding mass murderers purely and simply for doing so. It is hard to see what motive you would have for worshipping such a god except fear. That is largely why the subjects of the regimes of Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, etc worshipped their respective dictators. They feared imprisonment, torture, incarceration in labor camps and/or death. Why else would anyone worship such racist, totalitarian, psychopathic tyrants?
Similarly, you, Warrior for Christ, worship your demented god out of nothing but fear. How can you have any genuine devotion to him? He’s a mass murdering psychopath!
I would like to clarify to you again that I would NEVER, EVER worship your god even if he did exist. I would like to thank you for your post; it only serves to convince me of that further.
Another thing: when I use the phrase ‘born-again’, it is not meant in the ‘true’ or ‘authentic’ sense (i.e. in the context of Christianity). That is true. It is meant to say that the ‘atheist me’, if you will, died off for a while but has since been revived, rather in the manner of a phoenix in fictional tales, actually. It is not meant to be satirical but I make no apologies for offence caused.
NO religion can save us…DO not fall into the lies of religion
Here we have the attempt to elevate Christianity to a position of credibility superiority to other personal god-centred belief systems by describing the latter as religions while implicitly suggesting that the former is more than a ‘mere’ religion. This is typical of fundamentalist Christians, it seems. It is completely arbitrary, has no rational basis whatsoever and is nothing more than a reflection of personal bias. It is also puerile and immature.
A religion is typically defined as a system of beliefs, morals and practices centred around a belief in (a) god(s) and/or a supernatural or spiritual dimension to the universe and life or some variation thereon. Christianity meets this definition and hence qualifies as a religion whether the fundies like it or not.
RE my post on the god of the Bible: it read ‘Christians’. Perhaps that was too general; perhaps it should have read ‘evangelical Christians’. I know that probably not all Christians actually believe in the god of the Bible. That is to say that some of the more liberal Christians do not actually believe every detail about the nature and actions illustrated in the Bible of the ’sole true god’ to be actual fact. They do not believe all the gory bits where the god of the Bible slaughters whole cities full of people to be truth, at least not in the literal sense. Nor do they accept the truth of the portions of the Bible that stipulate that God eternally punishes all non-Christians, regardless of their conduct in the present life, purely for their failure to ‘accept Jesus as saviour’. Some believe that God judges in the afterlife on the basis of conduct in the present life, regardless of belief. Others do not believe that God judges in the afterlife at all and simply sends everyone to Heaven. Still others do not even believe in an afterlife.
These Christians, then, believe in a VARIATION on the god of the Bible, one which displays none of the malevolence exhibited by the original and is instead benevolent and affectionate. However, they still hold the Bible to be the best source of truth about God, his relationship to man, etc.
Evangelical Christians, however, most likely DO believe all the horror stories in the Bible involving God as the villain, and for that matter, the sections that imply that God assigns people to Heaven or Hell on the basis of whether they have ‘accepted Christ as saviour’ or not, to be literal truth, because of their inclination to accepting biblical inerrancy. I guess my first post was directed mainly at them and anyone else who accepts these tales as actual fact while simultaneously insisting that the god of the Bible is the only legitimate arbiter of morality.
Sorry about that; only the quote from Jesus Freak in the very first line of the post was meant to be italicised
Damn! It’s happened again!
One more thing, Warrior for Christ: if someone came up to me in person and started sprewing out the sort of garbage in your post, then within minutes they would be talking out of the other side of their face - if at all! I know that I thanked you for the post at an earlier point in this interculation and I am not retracting. I stand by what I said in that post. If your god is so egotistical that he punishes humans for pointing out and condemning his past atrocities against humankind, then that makes me all the more determined never to worship him!
Nevertheless, consider yourself lucky that I have never met you nor your god personally; I’d BASH THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT BOTH OF YOU!
Spelling mistake: ‘interculation’ should have been ‘interlocution’