Atheists should mind their own business. I do not care if you do not believe in God. Why do you care that I do. Your philosophy should be "Live and Let Live"
[original post]
A few minutes later, she wrote elsewhere:
Your argument or opinion is absolutely exagerated and false. You have jumped to false conclusions. You athesists are liars and almost violent in your hatred of people who believe in God. Keep quiet, you don't believe in God, so what, who cares. Again, I say, Live and Let live.
[original post]
It's curious how someone who clearly isn't "minding their own business" would come to an atheist site to tell atheists to "mind their own business." Ann clearly doesn't believe in the philosophy of "Live and Let Live," yet she feels qualified to instruct atheists on that this should be their philosophy. Speaking of which, why does Ann think that atheists should have such a philosophy in the first place? What is it about atheism which suggests to religious theists that atheists shouldn't have anything to say about religion or theism?
There isn't anything, frankly. The only motivation for making such suggestions is the theist's own desire to not have to be faced with atheists' critiques. Some theists react by complaining about being persecuted. Some react by insisting that atheists should just keep their ideas to themselves — standards which are never applied in any other circumstance, but which some religious theists (and Christians in particular) don't hesitate to apply here.
I think it has to do with the fact that a lot of Christians define themselves, and their families as being Christian – first and foremost.
Atheist challenging those beliefs are challenging the very nature of who they are.
If you believe we never landed on the moon, and I logically show you that we did. If you change you mind – what’s the big deal.
But if a Christian deconverts – that is the basis of who they are (at least how they see themselves) and who their family is.
That is the basis of their fear of hearing the logic.
Ann and her ilk hold the fate of atheists everywhere in their very own hands; all they have to do is to stop postulating this incoherent god nonsense and we will cease to exist!
We would have nothing not to believe in, so to speak.
Can you feel it? Dogmatic religious types are getting scared. They should be. Their free pass at idiocy is revoked and they are beginning to see cracks in their long established mythical world view.
Wait until the Muslims weigh in, that’s when things are going to get really dicey. Their fairy tale is especially violent and moronic.
All we can do is continue being right and challenge them at every turn. We have truth on our side.
no atheist shouldn’t be quiet. if they did i would really have nothing to do considering i spent so much time on this forum
and GabrielAmerican it is a generalization to say that religious types are automatically scared of your critiques. would i be hear if i wasn’t genuinely interested in what your critiques are? there are plenty of christians that are interested and very much open to hearing your critiques so that they can have an intelligent discourse with you. by automatically stating that you are right and they are wrong you do not leave any doors open for them to come and discuss with you their beliefs and why they believe it. and you also run the risk of having many irrational and illogical “christians” come and start screaming at you. and you believe you have truth and there are others who also believe they also have truth. instead of calling them idiots and insulting them you should be eager to speak your thoughts. that way
1. you can do credit to other atheist by showing courtesy and respect for those who hold different views.
2. you give the chance to christians to show their beliefs.
3. you also look better if you do not resort to name-calling like many of those you might argue with will.
i know i do not need to tell you that you should keeping speaking on your beliefs since you already do. and this christian will also keeping speaking my beliefs. because if we all cease to continue question ourselves and others then we can never truly say we are trying to pursue the truth. imho.
(because if we all cease to continue question ourselves and others then we can never truly say we are trying to pursue the truth. imho). When Muslims, Jews, Christians, Infidels, or whatever begin doing this, then the killing will stop.
@Randomguy
While I appreciate your calm approach to reasoned discourse, my ire was directed towards “dogmatic religious types.”
In answer to your numbered points:
1. Courtesy is always appropriate, but respect is earned.
I refuse to respect ideas which are: a. Patently false(mohammed flying to heaven on a winged horse, noah’s ark holding 2 of every animal, a talking snake in the garden of eden, etc…)
b. Demonstrably dangerous (stoning any number of individuals for any number of sins, creating a culture of hate towards homosexuals because someone’s god claims it’s an abomination, killing non-believers because they don’t worship the correct god, etc…) All of these, and more, are found in judeo-christian/muslim holy books.
2. A chance to show their beliefs? Are you joking? Religion has gotten a free pass to espouse it’s version of the truth, morality, social convention for as long as religion and power have been linked. It seems only recently that free thinkers have begun to challenge it in the public sphere. Don’t make the mistake of most religious apologists, simply questioning the veracity of religious claims is not an ad hom attack.
3. I will “call a spade a spade,” as they say. A myth is a myth, violence is violence, and ignorance is ignorance.
It’s funny that she accuses atheists of being “almost violent”–and then says “keep quiet.” I guess my question is: Or else what? Or else you’re make me shut up? Seriously. She comes to an open forum for _atheists_, where atheists are talking amongst themselves–not preaching at theists; and she tells us to, basically, shut up. Then accuses us of being “almost violent.”
I tend to think of a person who tells me I need to stop utilizing my right of free speech as “almost violent.” Has saying to someone “shut up” ever actually shut anyone up? Generally it’s a threat.
In grammar, when a person uses a verb as a sentence, such as “keep quite”–it’s sometimes referred to as a “command” with an implied subject: “you.” In other words, “You, keep quiet!”
No, Ann. I won’t keep quiet. And if you’re not a violent person, then you have no intention of forcibly enforcing your command, and I have no intention of rolling over and acquiessing to it. So, we’re back to square one, where I’m excercising my free speech and you think I’m wrong to do so–but aren’t going to actually stop me, only express your desire that I stop.
I’ll keep expressing my opinions. Anne is welcome to keep telling me to stop.
And so, everyone’s happy.
1. i did not mean respect their ideas. but respect the fact that there are others with different ideas.
2. i do not believe a questioning of my beliefs is an attack on my beliefs. but if there is a question one should be willing to wait for an answer.
3. If you belief that what i belief is a myth call it that. And if you believe that there are those who are violent also call them that. However, if you call some1 and idiot (even if they) you will just anger them. and you might even lose the chance to fully explain your idea to them if they are angry.
Ann really needs to take her own advice she spouts at us. She needs to “live and let live” by doing all she can to prevent government from preferencing her relgious beliefs (i.e. enacting religiously-based laws) over those of us who do not share them. She needs to tell those of her faith to stop their actions, often violent, against others “in the name of god” or “because the bible commands us to.” Until SHE can learn to “live and let US live,” I will not take her advice seriously.
When Muslims, Jews, Christians, Infidels, or whatever begin doing this, then the killing will stop.
i am christian and i continuously question myself and the beliefs of other christians before i go to question the beliefs of others. secondly i do not kill. i am also aware of many muslims and jews who do not kill. the same muslims, and jews who also question themselves. i would be stupid to say that atheist should question themselves and the killings would stop. i know plenty of atheist who don’t kill. just because i know of atheists who do i don’t let that discredit my view of actual rational atheist.
What does this mean?
(When Muslims, Jews, Christians, Infidels, or whatever begin doing this, then the killing will stop). My statement was directed at those who consider themselves to be agents of God, And kill
Christians must be feeling the push from Atheists if they are on an Atheist’s site defending their beliefs telling others how to behave and what rules to follow; how profoundly Christian of them.
Chad,
Check out this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=146796811311205941
I believe Atheists should keep quiet. Religious people are always trying to cram their beliefs down other people’s throats. I believe Atheists should be better than that. ALSO, it’s getting crazy out there. If we end up living in a Theocracy we will be forced to keep our mouths shut. Any response?
Why do you perceive the only two options as “being quiet” and “cramming their beliefs down other people’s throats”?
1. If you are really so concerned about theocracy, why not support atheists’ criticisms of religion and theism?
2. If you really believe that atheists should keep quiet, why wouldn’t you support a theocracy forcing them to keep quiet?
I’ve found that if I talk about the crooked theists, I can move on to other things. Start comments with “I wonder” or
“I’m not surprised” People who might agree or who want to hear more will seek you out. The point is not to convert, but to “bear witness”.
I put some signs in my car windows that say: “Religion is an allergic reaction to silence”, “Keep your pope out of my crotch”, “No Bible-Mutant Judges”, “Dump Israel”, and something I forgot.
“Some react by insisting that atheists should just keep their ideas to themselves — standards which are never applied in any other circumstance…”
Actually, I think this attitude is much in evidence in any circumstance wherein a person is confronted by awkward questions or unwelcome information. For example, I wouldn’t be surprised to find it in a husband who, believing, and wanting to believe, his mate perfectly loyal, is faced with strong evidence that he’s being cheated on.
The resistence to the disclosure of the unwelcome news, even the insistence that it not be so much as brought up in conversation, is proportional to the value the person places on the thing being threatened.
Atheism, if true, is perceived (rightly, I think) as seriously compromising the viability of the belief that people survive death (immortal souls, reincarnation) or recover from (reincarnation, resurrection) it. “Sorry, folks,” it seems to say, “but there is no happy ending here.”
And that’s a pretty substantial threat, particularly to someone who may never before, in all their years, have even imagined death-as-final as a possibility.
I know it shook me up.
Thanks for bringing that up, John Halloran. That psychological phenonmenon, to my understanding, is called “cognitive dissonance”. A comparison: someone buys a car, then discovers after driving it for a while that it doesn’t really drive very well, or that the seat becomes uncomfortable after a while. One is likely, under cognitive dissonance theory, to ignore such attributes of the car, since the knowledge would indicate that one had made a poor choice in purchasing that car. Such ego-protecting rationalization seems to occur in most of us about the effects most of the choices we make, so we must beware!
I don’t have to “shut up” because Ann is in violation of 1 TIM 2:12. “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
I’ve actually heard more than one theist assert that others died so we could have freedom of speech, therefore, we atheists should be careful what we say. Orwellian double-think at its finest.
P.S. I find it considerably easier to put up with a lot of the believers’ antics when I keep it in mind that, behind so much of their bluster, posturing, and self-righteousness is a good measure of unacknowledged existential insecurity. In fact, I sometimes wish I had a better answer for them than some variant of, “Wake up and face the facts!”
But that’s currently the best answer I have for myself too.
I prefer the Socratic method. Ask enough questions and they will lead themselves to the truth or they’ll walk away pissed off but either way all you have to do is keep your hard won peace of mind. Smile also because, remember, thou art that.
I’ve just watched the Eugenie Scott link put up earlier in the forum.
I just hope that future generations ,when they study history,are astonished about the amount of time and intellectual energy intelligent ,rational people had to spend(of necessity) defending evolution against half-baked, laughable challenges ,when they could have been usuing that time and nergy much more productively.
I dont think atheists should keep quiet – I am raised in a Christian home, and theists are the first people to start up on religion. I am only 16, and am just getting round to making my beliefs known