Forum Discussion: Perception of Atheists - Are Atheists Too Rude?
Why do others have such a negative opinion of atheists? I think part of it has to do with the way atheists present themselves. Unfortunately, many of us condescend or insult when we debate theists. This has the effect of fueling the fire against us. It also kills the dialog and any hope of convincing others that our position is the most reasonable. I would like to see atheists make more of an effort to be more dispassionate and respectful when we debate others. I think we will find we get more respect in return and more converts.
Are atheists any more "rude" and "intolerant" than conservatives are about liberalism or liberals are about conservatism? When was the last time anyone said that liberals could convert more conservatives or Muslims could convert more Christians if they were just more polite? Only despised minorities get told this, and always when they dare to speak out forcefully. When counter-arguments can't be used, the privileged resort to what amounts to little more than emotional blackmail: "I wouldn’t treat you so horribly if you'd just stop saying mean things about my religion."
More than one forum member argues in response to the above post that "blaming the victim" of prejudice, bigotry, and discrimination is ultimately a tool of the privileged and powerful for ensuring that those in subordinate positions don't get enough sympathy to break out of their disfavored status. One writes:
Change atheist to "women" and theist to "men" and tell me if that paragraph has the same meaning. Or change them to "black" and "white". Or rape-victim and rapist. Or wife and abusive husband.
I think part of it has to do with the way women present themselves.
I think part of it has to do with the way rape victims present themselves.
I think part of it has to do with the way blacks present themselves.
The above statements still get used at times, though they aren't usually stated so directly and publicly as they once were. The attitudes persist because people don't want to be held responsible for their behavior and how they treat minorities. It's easier to pretend that those who suffer deserve it, then no one else has to change or confront their own bigotry. It's a very good way to ensure that unjust privileges persist.
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Comments
Well said.
I think that a lot of the “anger” atheists are accused of is misperception; some theists expect their religion to be accorded special privilege and find the absence of it highly confronting. They can say some horrible things, and appear affronted when atheists have the temerity to continue to merely exist.
I have seen a great deal of anger in theist-atheist discussions - but all of it from theists*. Indeed I have felt at risk of my life on one occasion, merely for quietly saying the words “Well, no actually, I don’t believe in God”. At other times I’ve been accused of being immoral, of being unable to teach my children morals, and of all manner of other things. I have managed not to get angry at that kind of rudeness, but I am still perceived as angry.
*(I am not claiming that all theists are like this - many don’t feel the need to pry or proselytize, and can manage to sit near an atheist without treating the atheist like a murderer)
[Actually, I have been on the receiving end as a vegetarian as well - where I have been red-in-the-face-shouted-at and yet at the same time *I’ve* been accused of being angry and judgemental by people who know nothing about me other than the fact that I don’t eat meat… and so have NO idea whatever of what I was thinking.]
I wrote on this myself recently - Are Atheists Angry?
Perhaps Atheist should look to themselves, however, for answers.
“[Actually, I have been on the receiving end as a vegetarian as well - where I have been red-in-the-face-shouted-at and yet at the same time *I’ve* been accused of being angry and judgemental by people who know nothing about me other than the fact that I don’t eat meat… and so have NO idea whatever of what I was thinking.]”
I have seen that on the . I think people feel threatened by others who consider eating meat immoral, and the idea that vegetarians see some relatively normal acts immoral threatens them. I suppose it may seem arrogant or rude to some even if the vegetarian isn’t actually rude or arrogant.
The same someone who is gay may react to a homophobe, if you get the idea. People do find mere ideas very threatening, someone who considers themselves very moral realising that there are people they know that think of them as immoral. I am not a homophobe at all, I was just using it as an example.
Child of Thorns -
I think perhaps you’ve made a similar error to the people I describe (though not with the same unfortunate reaction).
The times this has happened to me, I have little doubt the people who reacted angrily to the news I was vegetarian imagined I thought eating meat was immoral, and were upset to think that I was “judging” them. However, they had no basis for that conclusion whatever, since I certainly never expressed any suggestion that I thought eating meat was immoral. Their only basis for deciding what my thoughts were was the news that I didn’t eat meat. From that they apparently concluded a host of things about my internal thought processes. I see a similar problem with many (but far from all) theists - that if I don’t believe in God, I must necessarily think a list of certain other things. These additional conclusions have always been wrong; if they were true, their offended sensibilities might make some kind of sense.
I actually was the one who posted the item that is the subject of this article. The point I was trying to make was that Atheists claim there position to be more rational and so will be held to a higher standard of argumentation just as those who proclaim themselves holy will be held to a higher standard of behavior. If we act irrationally in debates, insulting people and being contemptuous, we propagate the stereotype of the ugly atheist.
Efrique:
I totally get your point. I had a similar experience when I spent several years as a vegetarian in college.
Someone _hounded_ me at a holiday gathering because I didn’t eat meat. I hadn’t commented about the meat or said anything to anyone else. And, in fact, I made the decision for myself and recognized that it had to do with my personal values and views regarding animals–that NOT everyone shared. I was not “preachy” about it by any stretch–and certaintly didn’t bring it up at this event.
The person was seriously attacking, and I was dumbfounded about why this was such an issue for them or how it affected them _at all_. Finally–after being questioned–I said that I simply liked animals and thought they were great and didn’t want to kill or eat them–they said that plants are neat and they like plants and think plants are great.
I replied–”If you admire plants and don’t want to eat them–then don’t.”
It was as if a lightbulb clicked on and they finally grasped that it was a _personal choice_ that really wasn’t any of their business–just as what THEY choose to eat isn’t really any of MY business. They totally chilled out and seemed fine after that. That last bit was actually quite funny to see–like a 30-second personality makeover.
But yes–there is a point to be made. What _I_ do doesn’t have to be interpreted by others as a judgement about what _they choose to do_. If I cut my hair–it really doesn’t mean that I hate to see other people wearing their hair long. The people who concern themselves overly with what other people are doing really do need to get a life. It’s cliche, but very true. They need to focus on THEIR lives and what THEY want to do, and quit bothering about what other people are doing or what other people think. Even if I do cut my hair because I despise long hair on EVERYONE–so what? How does that impact their right to wear it long–or how does it change how their long hair looks on them or to them just becuase I hate it?
Seriously: SO WHAT if I hate it? I’m not the one who has to wear it (and they can tell me so if I get in their face about it, right?).
“Child of Thorns -
I think perhaps you’ve made a similar error to the people I describe (though not with the same unfortunate reaction).
The times this has happened to me, I have little doubt the people who reacted angrily to the news I was vegetarian imagined I thought eating meat was immoral, and were upset to think that I was “judging” them. However, they had no basis for that conclusion whatever, since I certainly never expressed any suggestion that I thought eating meat was immoral. Their only basis for deciding what my thoughts were was the news that I didn’t eat meat. From that they apparently concluded a host of things about my internal thought processes. I see a similar problem with many (but far from all) theists - that if I don’t believe in God, I must necessarily think a list of certain other things. These additional conclusions have always been wrong; if they were true, their offended sensibilities might make some kind of sense. ”
I wasn’t refering to what vegetarians actually beleive, I was refering to what non-vegetarians often beleive vegetarians to be, and the kind of reactions to those misconceptions they may have made.
As a theist who enjoys dialogue & learning from atheists, I have experienced both extremes of atheists (by extremes, I mean the outright rude, angry, & suspecting to the very kind & helpful (as I’m sure many atheists have encountered both extremes of Christians).
I think it is good that we dialogue. I think we need to not take everything as an attack. As Efrique said “I have been red-in-the-face-shouted-at and yet at the same time *I’ve* been accused of being angry and judgemental by people who know nothing about me other than the fact that I don’t eat meat… and so have NO idea whatever of what I was thinking.]”
Just because I am a theist with questions about atheism or a carnivore asking about vegetarianism doesn’t mean I am condemning YOU for be an atheist or vegetarian. It certainly doesn’t mean that I am trying to “convert” you. It just means I am curious about how it works for you.
Theists do the same thing & it’s not right. It’s easy to feel “attacked” & then go on the defensive. This does little to help the divide between us.
It’s easy for both sides to say that the opposing side is the worst (well, at least I don’t…) But perhaps if we both worked on being more respectful, we could each, in turn, gain respect from the other side.
Atheists frustrate theist to no end, we don’t care if they believe the moon is made of cheese, as long as it isn’t forced on others then we really don’t care what they believe.
Theists take atheism as an affront to their belief, it isn’t enough for an atheist to say “believe what you want but don’t expect me to believe too”, theist want everyone to drink the kool-aid too, if you don’t then you are a rebellious atheist.
I rarely see an atheist get hot-under-the-collar, but I often see theists get upset when their superstitions are questioned or tested by logic, they need to convince others that they are not crazy, they need that validation.
If others believe it then it’s all true, typical mass delusional thinking, which I am sure they would take as an insult, but what else can you call it?
I have no desire to pamper and coddle these people who set out to force their delusions upon me and (my) society. If not agreeing with them gets them upset, oh well.
“as long as it isn’t forced on others then we really don’t care what they believe.”
what is your definition of “forced on others?”
it’s easy to interpret someone just saying what THEY believe as telling YOU what to believe
“Theists take atheism as an affront to their belief”
not all of us.
“I have no desire to pamper and coddle these people ”
then please don’t. it’s not pampering or coddling to simply show respect.
Brooke
“what is your definition of “forced on others?””
I enrolled my children in a private secular school. Even so the younger one came home with a lot of stories about Jesus and how it is good to pray. The kindergarten teacher is Christian and thinks it is natural to share her faith with the children, not bothering to ask if their families are Jewish, atheists, Muslims or something else. I think that is to force something on others.
Another example. When we moved to our new apartment a neighbor brought us a small image of Our Lady (we live in a catholic country), so we could pray in front of her. My wife politely told her that we were not Catholics. The neighbor looked as if offended, put the image on my wife’s hands, and said something like “But it is Our Lady! It does not matter what you are!”.
These attitudes are, unfortunately, quite common among believers. If that is not to force something on others, than what is it?
Ricardo-
I agree, I think it is totally inappropriate in a secular school to teach about Jesus, if you are not going to talk about other religions, especially with young kids. I would agree, that would be considered “forcing” it on others.
As for the Catholic lady, while it could be possibly be considered insensitive. You could have just taken the Mary & tossed it. She was just trying to welcome you in her way. If , however, she were implying (don’t know, I wasn’t there) that you needed to conform simply because the community happened to be Catholic, that would be wrong, & would in my opinion be “forcing” religion on others.
I used to live next to some Jehovah’s witnesses, who would occasionally drop their literature by. I would politely take it (I collect stuff like that), but if I didn’t, I would have just tossed it. So I didn’t consider that “forcing” their religion on me. Some would though.
My point was just that we tend to be so oversensitive (Christians included) to the point where if someone is just telling us how THEY believe (not necessarily how YOU should believe) that we can take it as an attack on OUR beliefs. And this prevents any kind of intelligent dialogue & ruins any potential community between us.
The point is it is rude to foster your unsolicited views on others. Nominally everyone is entitled to their opinion, it is when they believe I am entitled to it as well, that it becomes irritating.
… your right to an opinion does not preclude others’ rights of criticism…
…rudeness perceived in others is simply a projection of your sensibilities on them…
… if your opinion is correct, how does the criticism hurt your position?…
… if it is wrong, criticism may help you avoid future embarrassment…
… I agree that many criticize in such a way that their message is lost in the verbal onslaught (call it rudeness)… but, that usually waters down & hurts their argument…
… but, they are as entitled to their opinion to the same degree as you are to yours…