Erik Brown writes in The Daily Reveille:
For simply being an atheist and expressing my views, I have received hate mail, faced rejection, been harassed and condemned to hell, had my property destroyed, trash dumped outside my door, received numerous threats of violence and been punched in the face - not to mention fired from a job. I also find it incredibly hard to find a job in Baton Rouge outside the University and certainly have a snowball's chance in hell of ever holding public office regardless of my political orientation or party.
I and many atheists like myself are tired of being persecuted. This anger and frustration can come out in criticism, but a careful distinction needs to be drawn between religious criticism and bigotry. Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from criticism - religious institutions are a powerful force in society that, like government, must remain under close scrutiny.
The context of these remarks are the popular "Blasphemy Challenge" videos being posted to YouTube. Some Christians claim that these videos are signs of atheist intolerance of religion and Christianity. What kind of world do we live in where good, god-fearing Christians feel justified in discriminating against and even committing violence against atheists, but atheists are the intolerant ones for simply making public their disdain for Christian doctrine and dogma? What sort of nation is America if blasphemy can be treated as worse than bigotry, discrimination, or violence?
The issue to keep in mind is that the doctrines and dogmas which atheists are so critical of are precisely those which, in one way or another, are helping prop up and encourage treating non-Christians as if they were less equal and less worthy of equality than Christians. Thus what atheists are being critical of is an ideological system which perpetuates indecency in society; in response, Christians are demanding that atheists stop being so uncivil in their activism against indecency. Rather than object to the indecency in their religion, they object to incivility among those subjected to that indecency.
I was quite surprised by some of the hate mail I received as a participant in the Blasphemy Challenge. Most of them were immature attacks on my character. Basically, they were all Christians lashing out just because I had dared to post a video that was under a minute long. A few of them were misguided attempts at wishing me to have a “true” religious experience and such. A few were clearly trying to irk me with similar remarks made in an insincere way. Kinda like the guy at the grocery store who wishes you to “have a REALLY nice day” when he knows you were just really mean to him. Know what I mean?
Worst of all was the content of my post versus that of many others, some of which ran 10 mins or even more. I briefly fulfilled the requirement of the challenge in my video (denying the holy spirit) and then gave a brief monologue about abusive, authoritative organizations. Nothing special to make it stand out. Yet more than a dozen Christians singled me out of all the hundreds that participated!
Or did they? I can’t help but wonder if they even watched the video. Could it be that they just went down the list and insulted as many of us as they could to feel better about themselves by lashing out? Sad to say, that seems like a realistic possibility. What a shame. Not to mention of waste of time and of hate.
IsaacJ
i agree with you i live in the bible belt and am 17 i have been atheist since i was very young and my entire life i have been made fun of treated diffrently and attacked because of my beliefs(well actually lack of but whatever)and about 4 years ago i tried to tell my parents i was and my mom told me she wasnt going to let a devil worshiper live in her house (she knows what athiesim means she was using that as an insult) so i instantly told her it was a joke and she has yelled at me for it ever since i dont know what im suppost to do
Hi Jordan. You are in a tough position until you leave home. The only encouragement I can give you is to let you know that you are the future – religion is slowly dying in all educated, free societies. Be true to yourself.
hi seathanaich
while i sympathise with jordan, atheisim is not the future – even if it was, it would be a very bad one
history always repeats itself. this is not the first, second or third time the Church of Christ has been thought of as ‘dying away’
When IRRATIONALITY ATTACKS, you could inwardly smile with assurance that if the religionists had any PROOF for their convictions…they haven’t presented any so far in these past several thousand years.
How much more time do they need?
Also: you could realize…and suggest to them…thateach one of them is an atheist, too!
I.E., With so many different religuous versions of “god,” and when each person chooses to be commited to
one of them, he/she is an atheist with respect to ALL other religions.
Think on it.
Atheists, really!
Learn how to spell and punctuate, for a start.
“i agree with you. i live in the bible belt and am 17. i have been atheist since i was very young. For my entire life i have been made fun of treated differently and attacked because of my beliefs (well actually lack of but, whatever). About 4 years ago i tried to tell my parents i was and my mom told me she wasn’t going to let a devil worshiper live in her house (she knows what atheism means, she was using that as an insult). So, i instantly told her it was a joke and she has yelled at me for it. Ever since, i don’t know what i’m should do.”
Much better!
You can keep quiet about it until you leave the house. With my parents, i just never brought it up. Over time they stopped dragging me to church.
‘i agree with you i live in the bible belt and am 17 i have been atheist since i was very young and my entire life i have been made fun of treated diffrently and attacked because of my beliefs(well actually lack of but whatever)’
Sad but true this probably won’t change anytime soon due largely to where you live. Drawing from my experience I’d say the people discriminating against you would probably do so for other reasons if they could, you being an athiest is largely an excuse for their cruelty. I don’t know if this makes you feel better or worse but I feel it is important to mention such that you are aware that even if you convince these people that you aren’t an atheist at all, you’ll probably still be mistreated by them. However I’d still advise keeping your non-belief under your hat as much as possible at least until you’re away from that place.
‘and about 4 years ago i tried to tell my parents i was and my mom told me she wasnt going to let a devil worshiper live in her house (she knows what athiesim means she was using that as an insult) so i instantly told her it was a joke and she has yelled at me for it ever since i dont know what im suppost to do’
Sadly there’s not much you can do, you’ll have to keep your atheism under wraps. I hate to say this as I know it will hurt, but expect no reason or kindness whatsoever from anyone including your parents on this matter. You’ll have to bide you time. Whilst you do, try to seek out others who you think may be similarly inclined, but only reveal your atheism if you know they would sympathise/empathise and would not reveal your secret.
On the whole here’s one thing I have found true throughout my life,
Never confuse what you have a right to do with what you should do. We live in an imperfect world, always think of how your actions will affect you whether you have a right to do them or not.
And always remember, bad as things are now, one day this will be better.
First of all Todd you don’t need to be rude about Jordan’s spelling and punctuation errors. Secondly, Jordan, I understand where your coming from because I go through the same thing when I go to visit my mom and I’m 27 year old.
So stay strong buddy. My best advise to you is don’t get confrontational with family because it doesn’t do either of you good.
Its always unfortunate to hear that people like Erik get mistreated for being an atheist. What’s even more shocking is that these bigots feel justified by what they do, according to their teachings.
I had a friend of mine tell me how stupid atheist were and I told her to explain to me why she thought this. Her answer was because they didn’t believe in god, “so how does that make atheists stupid” I asked. Long story short her answer or arguments were based on assumptions and biased views from her preacher and family, which I gladly cleared up.
I don’t think she will become an atheist but at least I gave her a wider perspective of atheism. Even though I was offended by her statement I logically and calmly refutted all her false understandings of atheism, this I feel is the only way to help people understand, not convert, atheism.
It isn’t easy to live with force and fraud – extortion and lies.
Hey Jordan. Get a reasonable occupation, degree, or trade, then come down under. Australians generally couldn’t give a monkey’s what you believe as long as you are dinkum.
After a few years you can be “Born Again.” i.e. Become an Australian. Mind you there will have to be a modification to that southern dialect.
Hey Jordan – If it makes you feel any better your situation is not much different than those of us much older and living in the same society! I still must be silent about my beliefs while operating a business in the “bible belt”, I would lose many customers if they new I was an atheist (remember I do business with people I know to be xians everyday without being prejudicial). You just have to get comfortable with your own beliefs, and let the others muck along in their distorted Peter Pan reality. One day I do plan to find a place to live where I’m surrounded by a preponderance of tolerance, maybe you will too!
Hey Marc
Then come to Europe mate. In my country (Netherlands) up to 60% of the people are non-believers and a large group of catholics are catholic because they grew up like that and don’t really even believe (just tradition). Even so I never encountered bigotry for my beliefs here, although I guess very orthodox christians and muslims will have these feelings, however they are very rare and usually live in close proximity of each other.
Other European countries, like germany, denmark, norway and czech republic will be similar (although czech republic is a strange story, officially the least amount of christians in the world but the ones that are there will be pretty orthodox).
Jordan I can relate. I came out as an atheist to my older sibling and have been raked over the coals several times since. It’s terribly abusive but he get’s away with it by claiming he’s just telling me “The Truth” and doing me a favor. You can’t reason with that kind of thinking. He does not realize the problem is his. Sadly it severely limits our relationship. Keep it under wraps until you leave home and then be yourself.
this is terrible i feel ashamed that people i share a faith with would attack and abuse people who dont believe in god christians need to be tolerant of other people we all follow the same bible which teach us to be tolerant and show peace and love to all people no matter the atheist population of the world have their opinion which is a valid opinion which they would have made after looking at all sides of this in my opinion a completely useless argument but i condemn christians or anyone that attacks someone who does not believe in god and i sympathize with atheists that are persecuted for their beliefs
Guess I’m glad to be retired because I don’t have to cater to anyone. I’m totally free to express my atheism any time and any place I happen to be and oh boy do I ever. Every time a christian tries to convert me, I unload on them because I don’t go around trying to convert anyone. I told my Jehovah Witness friend years ago if she didn’t come down off the pulpit we could not be friends, we still are 16 years later. Live and let live. Believe or chose to be free is what I always say. Come to California where you can be yourself 24/7 get out of the bible belt.
Is atheism all about self—if so what is the payoff–selfishness? It’s a shame some people waste so much time and energy on just themselves and their own opinions and preferences.
Christians —true ones anyway—stand for something far bigger than themselves and they don’t succumb to their every human whim. “There’s a way that seems right to man, but it leads to death”.
The reason true Christians think that athiests are ignorant is because these people will look at a painting and admit there was a painter but look at creation and blatantly say theres no creator. They contradict themselves constantly and are completely irrational.
What they are really saying is that they hate the thought of someone other than themselves being in control of this whole universe. The biggest hindrance they have to acknowledging the truth is their love of sin. They shake their fists at God and say “how dare you tell me how to live”
and they hate God so much and hate the thought of Him holding them accountable for their lives that they go to the extreme of saying He doesn’t exist.
Refusing to believe something doesn’t make it not real. That would be like standing in the middle of the highway and saying I don’t believe in semi-trucks—that won’t keep you from getting ran over. Not believing in God will not release you from accountability to Him. You will still have to pass thru the door of death someday and face His judgement. Those who receive Gods free gift of grace thru faith in Jesus Christ will inherit eternal life. Those who live for themselves will live forever seperated from Him in hell.
If only they could think outside their athiest box for a while and relinquish unscientific evolutionary theories and stop making excuses, they could see the truth. Gods word says His attributes are clearly seen in nature and we are without excuse.
No,.
What’s the payoff of not believing in elves?
You mean, like when people post falsehoods about others in blog comments?
But they do succumb to some human whims, like persecuting others.
Yet those same Christians can’t provide any evidence of a creator.
OK, prove it.
If I were you I wouldn’t give up my day job because you’ll never make it as a mind reader.
It’s out love of truth that causes us to dismiss the insane ramblings of people who never evince any interest in supporting their claims or accusations.
Kind of how we hate Darth Vader for all the evil he did… oh, wait, it makes no sense to “hate” fictional characters.
True. And repeating over and over the something is true doesn’t make it real.
Spreading lies about atheists will not release you from your ethical obligations to the truth.
No more so than I face judgment from Odin.
You can always tell just how much a Christian really cares about truth and reality by whether they are in denial about basic science.
Of course, the reliability of that standard requires that this God exist and one already believe that it exists, which makes it a circular argument lacking any logical value. It’s instructive that your final word can’t rise above a basic logical fallacy.
There is a “creator” in athesim, its called physics. The universe works because physical laws induce it too work.
Energy can never be created or destroyed. The universe always existed and always will. Believing the Christian fantasy cannot make it real. Faith is plain old blind prejudice. Being good because of heaven and hell is pure selfishness. The very idea of a creation is like a 3 angled square. There was no creation. The Christian god infinitely tortures billions of people in infinite, burning hell and is therefore an infinite devil. You worship Jesus the infinite devil, and can’t even recognize it. You cannot even tell that infinite torture is wrong and therefore you do not know the difference between right and wrong and do not value human life.
Creation itself is evidence of a creator. What other explaination is there? The “big bang” theory? Where did the matter come from to make the big bang? Science has already proven that matter wears out over time–but God is eternal. The “big bang” is when God spoke—”And let there be light, and the darkness could not comprehend it.” Still today, darkness cannot comprehend the light.
What about evolution—-where are all the “missing links”, in the fossil record? These “transitional forms” that show how one species evolved into another species—do not exist. Darwin himself stated that without this evidence his whole theory will collapse and he’d have no choice but admit “Intelligent Design”, which he couldn’t bear the thought of for he loved his sin and refused to give God due honor.
It amazes me how athiests are so angry with true born again Christians (not unbiblical cults like Jehovah Witnesses)—–just for sharing Gods word and His love—saying we are just trying to win an argument or trying to “convert” someone. While they go to extremes to have the Ten Commandments removed from public school systems and replace them with evolution indoctrination, “converting” vulnerable children into hopeless humans who believe their whole existence is meaningless and will only become bug food someday.
It would take more faith to be an athiest than a Christian who has done their homework.
My “ethical” obligation is to warn people out of love –love that is for their eternal welfare, not my own selfish arguments.
How so?
You’re ignorance isn’t much of an argument.
Prove it.
Prove it.
Have you looked?
Do you have another explanation for using lies and fallacies for arguments?
Examples of the latter are rarer than “missing links.”
Yet you fulfill your “ethical” obligation with falsehoods and fallacies.
I can do without those sorts of Christian “ethics.”
You don’t have to take my word for it, you may want to take your argument up with a higher source.
You owe it to yourself to at least do your own research. You might even consider doing what I did many years ago when I gave up all of my dead end arguments.
I myself used to think I’m not going to go around like all these religious nuts and start believing in fairy tales. But then I began to reason that if there really is a God, I really need to find out before I die.
Believe me, I’m no better than you, I’m still human and have many faults, but I’m not too proud to admit I’m better off because I finally laid down my rebellion, confessed that I’ve sinned against my Maker and put my faith in Jesus, whom God sent to save us from the eternal consequences of our sin. The faith that I’m talking about is kinda like the faith one puts in a parachute before jumping out of a plane—-as if my life depended on it.
Some day we will all have to pass thru the door of death, and without a parachute (savior) you will have to face a holy God on your own good merits. I for one am not perfect enough to face Him without an Advocate. If you believe you are perfect then perhaps you should measure yourself against the ten commandments and see how you do. No one can be that perfect. We’ve all broken God’s law.
I know, and I won’t. So long as you can’t make your case with anything beyond falsehoods and fallacies, you have nothing to offer.
I have.
There has to be a “God” first, and you’ve made no case for that proposition that’s worth taking seriously.
Do you have a conscience that tells you right from wrong? Where did that come from? Furthermore, where do laws come from at all if there’s no absolute truth or standard to go by?
Have you ever stopped to think that if you can say I’m wrong, then you are admitting to the absolute truth of athiesm. So you contradict yourself if you say there are no absolutes—that “whatever is true for each individual is truth to them”—how can that be, because absolute truth doesn’t contradict itself. Every way can’t be right or there would be total chaos.
On a personal note, I’ve done alot of research into cults and false religions—–I was surprised to find out that no other religion offers grace. All false religions are based on religious works, how to be good enough, how to do enough, how to this, how to that—–this goes on even in the name of Christianity—-but it is a misrepresentation of true Christianity. True Christians put their faith in Jesus as Savior—–not in their own merits.
Considering all the misrepresentations, I can understand your anger and can even relate to it. I honor your skepticism if indeed it is truly a search for the truth. It is a sign of wisdom not to just take others word for anything. So keep asking questions, keep seeking and keep reasoning. God honors the true seeker. He also gives us reasoning abilities.
I enjoy communicating with someone who is intellectual, and I perceive that perhaps you are. I’m not against you so I’m sorry if I’ve come off that way. I could also take it that you’re against me, but I understand. I too have been hurt and persecuted severely by others—–some even in the name of religion.
Yes.
It evolved. Other animals show evidence of basic moral reasoning and a conscience.
From us. Feel free to demonstrate why you think an “absolute truth or standard” is necessary to have speed limits or zoning regulations.
Sorry, I see no logical connection between the two. Perhaps you can phrase yourself better.
And did I? Maybe you should stop and ask me questions before making assumptions.
How much is “alot”?
Well, maybe you can surprise me by demonstrating that this is relevant. Do you have evidence that a “true” religion necessarily has to “offer grace”?
What “anger” is that?
Austin:
With your permission, I would like to encourage Lee to Google FFRF Bible Quiz. “What Do You ReallyKnow About The Bible?”
There are 50 questions: 44 are multiple-choice of 4 answers and 6 are “yes” or “no” answers. The average human scores 15 answers correctly. The average chimpanzee would (according to the “law of averages”) score 14 correctly. My guess—Lee would get 9 to 13 correct.
Grandpa
Austin — Why are theist’s arguments always so dang lame?
I’m not being flip. I seriously want to know — don’t they have any better arguments than the ones we always see here?
Aren’t there any apologists who have more to offer than Lewis and McDowell and Strobel and the rest of the clowns in that circus?
Is the whole apologetic endeavor really as impoverished as its advocates on this site make it seem?
Why are all of these Christian apologists’ “arguments” so alike and so clueless? Just once, just once I’d like to see sophisticated reasoning for their god instead of endless repetition of talking points with ZERO proof offered. But it’s all this blather about “Jesus is gonna git you after your ded”. Maybe it’s some sort of atavistic tribal projection thing?
Amen, BROTHER!
Well said George. Clueless just about sums it up.
You won’t find too many intellectual giants amongst these Christians which is understandable when you consider what they are comfortable believing.
The concept of God sending the kid down to suffer on the cross, as a sacrifice to himself for the sins of the defective people that he made originally, has to put a rational mind in a spin.
Lee, you sound like a broken record. Look up the words “dogma” and “indoctrination”. Also, the big red flag goes up when I hear someone say they used to be reckless, sinful, whatever, and then they found God and “truth”. What I really hear is that that person’s life is out of control and rather than take responsibility for it themselves, they just continue along with their helpless hapless existence by putting the responsibility for their life in “God’s” hands. It doesn’t take much self introspection or courage to just hand a life over to some fictional being to avoid being held accountable for your own actions. Not only do Christians think that gives them a free pass, but they expect others to be impressed and respectful of such a cop-out. Try doing some serious objective research into the “absolute truth” of your religion and I guarantee you that you will not be able to continue to buy into those fairy tales.
By the way, Lee, what makes your fairy tale religion any more valid than the next guy’s? Take a step back, if you can, and look at how ludicrous you sound in that regard.
The basis problem with all the religions in the world over the years is: My god is better than your god, because you are nothing without “my god”. God is the Universal Principle of Life. It is the reason of being and being itself. Forget this idea of a personal god endowed with human attributes. God becomes conscious through human mind. It is man who conceives god through “The Word”. The word is synonymous to god (John 1:1) This is not merely scripture, but rather a basic principle i.e. through a mathematical principle man uses language upon which his thoughts become tangible. Genesis is clear on this: everything comes into reality( And God said…) The Word has been mysterious to many people, until we realize the truth behind the Christian concept.
I’ve always thought Jesus was a concept personified so the masses could understand something more concrete than abstract concepts. However, what a web the Christians wove when they first thought to deceive!
@lee: 1) There are none so completely irrational and contradictory than Christians. Christianity is a disease that removes the afflicted’s ability to reason. Your painting “analogy” is flawed to the point of making no sense whatsoever. But—that’s where you people live, right?
2) Not only will I not take your word for it, I will not take it up with a “higher source” because this “higher source” does not exist.
3) I never said there are no absolutes. The world is full of absolutes: Absolutely dead; absolutely wrong; absolutely pregnant, and last but not least: There is absolutely no god.
4) Your discussion about “false” religions contains some comedic value. However, ALL religions are false. How do you get past the culture-centricity of religions from all parts of the globe? If your god was omnipotent, why are there roughly 1500 different gods being worshipped in the world right now? Why? I’ll tell you why: Because they are all myths and fairy tales, that’s why. “Creation” as you call it is no evidence of a creator. In fact, there’s no evidence of anything supernatural at all—anywhere. And, as far as your “works” argument, your own book in James 3:17 states:”Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” Now, how do you answer THAT ONE? You see, this is something I’ve heard before. Now, if you’re a bible-believing Christian you believe the bible is the word of your god, right? So, either you’re a hypocrite, or you do not truly believe what the bible says. In either case, you are a sad sack of a Christian and a very poor example to all.
‘He’ didn’t approve of MY existence, so I still don’t approve of any idea, whatsoever that I can count on ‘His ‘Famous” Palace,
on the other hand, whoever of you is who, my own instinct is still & ‘just like that’ a symbol & a repetition of my self relevant fact that all that matters, is for myself to exist as, yes, myself, i.e. because of the fact that ‘His’ Mind can exist as
no responsibility of mine, unless ‘His’ Existence is MY unlimited responsibility, which please has to be motivated(!), today by the latest, (‘His’ Lawyer, Gerry, Utah), so that I can of course become & believe in & so on, tic toc, tic toc, half an hour, please, greetings, ‘J.A.,’ just a Danish buddhist!
Dear James,
I’m so glad you brought up James 3:17 from Gods word. All false religions twist this verse to their own destruction. Thanks for asking me to explain—
Works are not the means of salvation, they are the outgrowth of salvation. Hence, the dead faith has no outgrowth (works) that show forth that faith.
Faith is a strong force. The proof is in the pudding. For instance, the strong “faith” of athiests show forth the outgrowth of that kind of mindset—–anger.
I’m still waiting for someone to show forth the “transitional forms” as “proof” of evolution. And have you ever wondered why animals are not still evolving into humans today?
Every living thing is a transitional form.
Lee –”And have you ever wondered why animals are not still evolving into humans today?”
This is an extraordinary question. You make a false statement and then ask someone to give a reason for it! Evolution is continuing today and there is a mountain of evidence in support of it. We humans are still evolving and there is quite a bit of room for improvement!
And why do you think other animals should be evolving into humans specifically? Other species could evolve into higher lifeforms that do not have to resemble us. Having hands with opposing thumbs for grasping, and vocal cords to enable speech is a distinct advantage but other animals may develop other favorable attributes.
Lee: “And have you ever wondered why animals are not still evolving into humans today?”
How can you be you sure they aren’t?
Further, are you sure that present day humanity is the ultimate “creation”? You don’t need an engineering degree to think of ways our bodies could be better designed, after all. And our minds are a real mess: we can remember things that didn’t happen and believe things we know can’t be true.
My education was in the liberal arts, so many here know a great deal more about scientific matters than I. But I do know that species can be static for thousands of generations, then evolve or go extinct. At four generations per century, there have been fewer than one thousand since New Testament times. Does that offer any clue as to the pointlessness of your question?
it is very sad that rights are being taken away because of our beliefes. it states in the constitutioin that we have freedom of religion. someone should sue!!!! it just isnt right. they discriminate us, but look who is always at war. most of wars in the past are because of relion, have athiests been in a war…. no!!! we r not the violant ones
Lee
Regarding transitional fossils, there are thousands and counting, if you look. For just one, look up “Tiktaalik”
I’m so sick of this argument. My family continues to try to “save” me. They go so far as to have their ministers add me as friends on social media sites so that they can attempt to convert me when I post something nonreligious. Grow up, America! Learn some science!
There are thousands of transitional fossils. Do we have all of them? No. The number of bones actually fossilized from living organisms is very small compared to the actual number of living organisms. There are many, many species that we have no direct knowledge of due to the fact that none left any remains.
Take a college freshman level biology class, for goodness sake!
I sympathize with you Lisa – it becomes so tedious.
The reason the theists are so insistent is because they are really not very sure about their own beliefs and they need others talking the same talk they do to reinforce there shaky convictions. If you look at some of the wording used in sermons you will notice the incantations about how sure they are about the truth of the dogma. For example: “In sure and certain hope of the resurrection” – In sure and certain?!!
People who are confident about there knowledge do not need to repeatedly chant about it like this.
It is tedious. I’m really really tired of it. I’m tired of people not understanding basic science. I’m tired of fighting all the time. I’m tired of always having to watch what I say in order to avoid a new argument.
I’m thinking it’s about time for atheists to stand and expose the hatred and bigotry imposed by Christ’s little lambs.
It’s time this behavior was exposed for what it is. If the target were anything but atheists, you can bet Americans would voice their disapproval.
Segregation ended because Americans perceived it as unworthy of American ideals.
Gays are there on the cusp of throwing off bigotry.
Atheists receive hate mail, suffer destruction of property and loss of standing in the community. They may be perfectly decent people, but they don’t believe in the magical sky fairy some people bow down to. And for that, good Christians feel obligated to slash tires, break fences, libel, slander, and threaten them.
This shit sucks, yo.
Ok anthony, you really need to sit down and think about your argument, there is one inherent problem in your thinking which deconstructs and delegitimizes your entire argument. It is :
“time is a dimension/measurement of change, it is only in regards to CHANGE that we can measure time…
before time, means before the phenomenon of change itself ever took place…
before time means in eternity….”
If you really want to get into an intellectual debate about the concept of time then I suggest you become well versed in understanding what you’re talking about. Time is not a dimension/measurement of change and it is NOT only in regards to change that we can measure time. What you’re basically saying is that because we notice change we can measure time.
However, this argument is heavily flawed because the word “Time” is a man-made concept, there is no ‘real’ concept of time it is just a device used by our language. Sure, you could say that time is x,y,z but that is your own explanation within the limits of your language. Time can have several different meanings to several different people. Although we can debate the heuristic value of ‘time’, it is definitely not a concept of measurement but a concept of relativity. Its relative among individual actors interpretations as well as a concept that changes from ones point of view. In actuality there is not concept of time because its a language construct, and outside of language our way of dividing what we see becomes meaningless. You’re very caught up in what you know to be absolute truth (although science cannot answer anything absolutely but relatively and dependent on context) and are not able to see beyond what you absolutely ‘know’ (which is nothing).
I would suggest reading Wittgenstein, Russel, Hume, Descartes, Hedley Bull, as well as other scholars before you make such bold claims.