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Austin Cline

Atheists Hated More than Gays, Muslims, All Other Groups

By March 24, 2006

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Atheists are hated more than any other group in America. Surprised? Atheists know this very well, but a recent survey conducted by the University of Minnesota has provided new evidence of it. According to most of those surveyed, atheists fall below Muslims, gays, and every other minority group when it comes to "sharing their vision of American society."

Survey says (via Pharyngula):

Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

I wonder how much animus towards atheists derives from the unwillingness of atheists to think in categories like whether they have the authority to “allow” their children to marry someone or not.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

This won’t be a surprise to any atheists in America. Atheists aren’t tolerated in a wide array of contexts and there are many examples where bigotry or discrimination towards are atheists in contexts where similar behavior towards Jews or blacks would be unequivocally condemned.

Why are we perceived as a threat to the American way of life? There is just one thing that is common to all atheists: we don’t accept the common belief that some sort of god exists. Thus, the only thing that can be identified as “atheistic” is the failure to go along with the same beliefs as everyone else. For varying reasons, atheists are dissenters from popular beliefs. This would means that dissent, disagreement, and individualism are perceived as threats to the American way of life.

Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

Now this is very interesting. Atheists are associated with criminal behavior? The percentage of atheists is prison is lower than the percentage in the general population. Perhaps people simply assume that criminals can’t really believe in God, thus leading to a nicely closed loop of bigotry.

Atheists are associated with materialism? By that, I assume the study means “being materialistic,” or placing material concerns over all others. I can understand people thinking ill of materialism, but I can’t understand why people would associate atheism with that. After all, when was the last time you saw a major conservative evangelical Christian leader condemn materialism? Indeed, when was the last time you saw any Christian leaders in America condemn materialism?

Consider:
Which party is most associated with greed, selfishness, or materialism: Republicans or Democrats?
Which party is most associated with atheists: Republicans or Democrats?

Now, tell me again why atheists are associated with materialism? I’m not claiming that atheists can’t be materialistic, but being materialistic is a product of being part of American culture — a culture that Christians are every bit as influenced by as atheists are. Atheists aren’t going to be any more materialistic than Christians, but we at least don’t think that any gods are telling us not to be.

We can make the same point with the claim that atheists aren’t interested in the “common good” by looking at all sorts of social programs that helps support the common good: welfare, health insurance, benefits for veterans, and so forth. Which political party is most associated with cutting such programs? Which political party is most associated with atheists?

Maybe atheists are despised because we’re more likely to oppose the use of torture? According to a survey posted on the National Catholic Reporter, here are the percentages of people who say that torture is never justified:

26% Catholics
31% White Protestant
31% White evangelical
41% Secular
32% Overall Population

Here are the numbers who think that torture is often justified:

21% Catholics
15% White Protestant
13% White evangelical
10% Secular
15% Overall Population

I’m not sure what “secular” means, but it surely includes atheists and agnostics, given how the term tends to be used in surveys. It would appear, then, that we atheists are far more likely than Christians, or even the whole population, to say that torture is never justified. We atheists are far less likely than Christians, or even the whole population, to think that torture is often justified (same is true for “sometimes justified”).

So, maybe we atheists are a threat to the American way of life because so many other Americans want to include torture in that “way of life” but we don’t?

 

Understanding Atheism & Atheists:

 

Resources for Athiests:

Comments
June 17, 2006 at 8:23 am
(1) ramzy says:

i also like to add we dont start wars in the name of a god, enslave thousands in the name of god and all the other horrible thing most religions have done in the past we chooce to beleive in science that says there is no god that fuels the american life style

June 17, 2006 at 8:24 am
(2) ramzy says:

forgot to add so we indanger the american way of life which is based on intolerance of people woh are deffrent last tiem i checked racism is a bad thing

June 18, 2006 at 6:02 am
(3) gkaran says:

Yes, atheists shall bring the end of the world. Wait, no, that’s Christ. It seems as though there is often an inverse relationship between religious conviction and morality.

June 18, 2006 at 11:02 am
(4) White says:

Bwhahahahaahahahahahaahahahha…
Yeah, cos we go around killing and being racist and such in the name of God.
We justafy what we’re doing with by saying it’s ‘moraly right.’ Yes.

June 19, 2006 at 1:33 am
(5) myself says:

I love when someone says something like, “You don’t believe in god? So why don’t you go around killing and raping?” As if the only thing keeping the Christian from killing is a God waiting to strike him down. Yeah. Morals, what?

November 3, 2006 at 12:06 pm
(6) Albertadude says:

Man, what a whiner that wrote this article!!! Hilarious….poor little athiests so hard done by….you may be few in number but tragically your influence on Western Civilization is far far to high…..

No …it is true athiests do not kill in the name of god….they simply kill in the name of Stalin, Marx, Hitler or Pol Pot……

And please, could the author of this piece replace the picture of himself………could you look anymore petulant or arrogant….honestly, you look so freakin childish….

November 3, 2006 at 1:53 pm
(7) Austin Cline says:

Man, what a whiner that wrote this article!!! Hilarious….poor little athiests so hard done by….you may be few in number but tragically your influence on Western Civilization is far far to high…..

I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that this was a standard line used by anti-Semites for so long. Curious how you don’t actually address, much less rebut, anything I wrote – you just engage in personal attacks. That says someething.

November 13, 2006 at 2:33 pm
(8) GrandmaVickie says:

Despots like Stalin, Marx, Hitler (who was a christian, by the way)pol Pot kill for power. Religious kill for power also. The difference is in how the justify their actions. Dictators claim they are doing it for the good of the people and religious do it for god. There really is no justification for such horrible acts.

November 14, 2006 at 11:57 pm
(9) Tom TT says:

I love when someone says something like, “You don’t believe in god? So why don’t you go around killing and raping?” As if the only thing keeping the Christian from killing is a God waiting to strike him down. Yeah. Morals, what?

Perfectly illustrated by the following poster, It seems that since atheists are so unattractive to god, god won’t punish him for being churlish and ignorant.

For the immoral, religion can be a very valuable thing.

May 14, 2008 at 1:51 pm
(10) Russell says:

Why would anyone hate someone for not believing a story about the unknown?

If we were on a military mission, I wouldn’t want any of my fellow soldiers making assumptions about what is around the corner, or what is behind the door. It’s not a good strategy.

I have a feeling that there are more “atheists” out there than 3%, but the word itself is what has a such a negative stigma attached to it that even real atheists are weary of using it. I’d like to see an intensive study and survey about it but until we as a society can admit that atheism isn’t really that crazy and is actually logical and sensible then how would we get accurate results?

November 12, 2008 at 4:36 am
(11) Bob says:

“No …it is true athiests do not kill in the name of god….they simply kill in the name of Stalin, Marx, Hitler or Pol Pot……”

Are you kidding me? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? “I will kill you in the name of Pol Pot since I’m an atheist!” *stab *stab* LOL. Oh, it’s ATHEIST by the way….

March 19, 2009 at 5:42 pm
(12) woahitsariana says:

um to tell you the truth im 14 and im agnostic/athiest whatever you want to call it. i believe in a higher power but i dont believe in jesus or the bible and i choose to bellieve evolution and science and PROVEN FACTS than stories about talking snakes, not to be blunt. but that doesnt mean i bow down to hitler or any other psycho eveil person. i have a higher power . i pray for my family. i just think many catholic things are bulll**** and im only 14.

its offensive that people think athiests are dangerous satanists who are evil-i just dont like religion period. it causes so much **** in the world . thats all.

August 20, 2011 at 8:41 pm
(13) O says:

Honey, I commend you for looking at the facts, but if you believe in a higher power, you are most likely NOT an atheist. ESPECIALLY if you pray. Keep on thinking individually, you sound like a bright kid. ;)

March 23, 2009 at 1:04 pm
(14) james says:

Does anyone else find it funny that people associate athiests with stalin and pol pot as well as materialism? Do none of them realise the flaw in logic since stalin and pol pot are 2 of the most well known communists in the world?

September 8, 2011 at 2:54 am
(15) Ryan O'Doud says:

Communism, at least as marx penned it out, is by definition, Atheist. All communist leaders were atheists (except Gorbachev, who coincidentally helped to end the soviet union). As far as many of your argument are concerned, you can not judge a religion by the actions of those who simply claim it as their own. If you want to know what true Christianity, research the lives of the early saints. They gave up everything they owned, they prayed and fasted, they had incredible self discipline, they were commited pacifists, and they willingly died for the message of Christ’s salvation, in a time when simply talking about it would get you martyred. that is true Christianity, and no one can argue that it’s immoral.

September 8, 2011 at 10:57 am
(16) Austin Cline says:

As far as many of your argument are concerned, you can not judge a religion by the actions of those who simply claim it as their own.

On the contrary, that’s the best way to judge any ideology.

September 18, 2011 at 1:19 pm
(17) Egotheist says:

So, the early saints are true communists, but the unholy christians nowadays aren`t? :-D

by the way: the early communists were called martys too, because the were tortured and killed (by hitler in germany for example) they died willingly for the message of communist salvation… .

no matter how you put it: it never depends on what you believe, but in how you act.

sorry for my english no native speaker

May 8, 2009 at 11:08 am
(18) Chase L says:

A lot of religious groups like to claim because they have the bible/koran/god/etc. that they have the moral truth. They think they are moral just because they follow that “moral truth.”
It’s not morality, if the only thing keeping you from murder, rape, etc. is the bible; that’s called compulsion.

September 2, 2009 at 8:26 pm
(19) Blake says:

It is also humorous to me that people who follow the teachings of the bible never cite Lot or Moses in instances of morality (the former offered his daughters to an angry mob to be raped in exchange for angels, the latter slaughtered hundreds for worshiping a golden calf or some such idol). Does anyone else find this odd? The bible also suggests that christians may own slaves and sell their children. Some moral code….

November 24, 2009 at 2:56 pm
(20) Nick "The Atheist" says:

um to tell you the truth im 14 and im agnostic/athiest whatever you want to call it. i believe in a higher power but i dont believe in jesus or the bible and i choose to bellieve evolution and science and PROVEN FACTS than stories about talking snakes….

This makes you a Theistic Evoulutionist it means you believe that humans and animals evolved, but at the same time there was a “God” controlling it. Basicly you believe that for every scientific explanation theres also a magic explanation.

January 5, 2010 at 3:44 pm
(21) Vince says:

I am still struggling to figure out where the land of Nod is (was), why the bible differentiates between “sons of god” and the “daughters of man”. How come so many children that were begat in the bible are never named even though their fathers lived for hundreds of years and should have remembered most of them. So many laws, rules, and the only one which should be remembered is the Golden Rule which is, in one way or another the only rule which shoud be followed. Don’t like organized religions at all.

February 10, 2011 at 6:49 pm
(22) Marvin says:

The February 14, 2011 Newsweek has an article entitled “What the Bible Really Says about Sex” that reviews recent books by Jenifer Wright Knust and Michael Coogan. In her _Unprotected Texts: the Bible’s Surprising Contradictions about Sex and Desire_, Knust says the terms you referenced refer to angels who impregnated mortal women and produced monsters. God’s anger over the monsters, she says, is the reason for the flood, and Sodom was destroyed because the men intended to rape the angels under Lot’s protection.

January 24, 2010 at 5:29 am
(23) john says:

I’d completely disagree with a simple survey’s ability to come to such a conclusion. Its assumes that all people are equally open about their prejudices and secondly, there’s no link between the prejudices expressed by the respondents, and actual hate speech and hate crime. Indeed there is alot of anti-atheist sentiment out there, but to say they are “hated more than all other groups” is overly dramatic. If identified as atheist, they are far less likely to be victims of unprovoked insult than a gay person coming out or a muslim in traditional clothing.

Maybe I’m wrong because i live in New Zealand which is quite atheist-dominated, but I don’t see how you can call atheists the most hated group on the basis of a survey, when other groups in America and around the world are far more likely to be victims of inhumane crimes and propaganda campaigns.

August 20, 2011 at 8:45 pm
(24) O says:

Unfortunately, as an atheist American, in some states this survey would be accurate. What I wouldn’t give to live in New Zealand :P

January 24, 2010 at 8:00 am
(25) Austin Cline says:

I’d completely disagree with a simple survey’s ability to come to such a conclusion.

Except that this one survey is consistent with the results of dozens of surveys going back to the 1950s. Given the scientific status of these surveys, you’re doing to need some substantive objections.

Its assumes that all people are equally open about their prejudices and

Most people aren’t, but unless you’re going to argue that they are less open about prejudice towards Jews and blacks, but more open towards atheists, that won’t affect the results here.

secondly, there’s no link between the prejudices expressed by the respondents, and actual hate speech and hate crime.

Let’s assume that’s true: this has no impact on the conclusion that atheists are more hated.

Indeed there is alot of anti-atheist sentiment out there, but to say they are “hated more than all other groups” is overly dramatic.

That only makes sense if we take seriously the idea that people are saying “I wouldn’t vote for you only because you’re an atheist an I wouldn’t approve of my child even dating an atheist, much less marrying one, but that doesn’t mean I hate atheists.”

I’d take that as seriously as someone saying “I don’t hate black people, I just don’t want my sister marrying one or for one to move next door to me.” Feel free to argue how and why such sentiments should be taken seriously, though, if you think you can.

Maybe I’m wrong because i live in New Zealand which is quite atheist-dominated

Uh, yeah, it really didn’t occur to you that being in an atheist-dominated country you’re far less likely to discriminated against than in America where atheists are generally identified as lacking morals or values — where a president of the United States once said openly that he doubted they could be citizens????

You did notice, I assume, that this survey was only about America and not “around the world”???

January 30, 2010 at 3:18 pm
(26) John Hanks says:

Atheists are accepted by most people in modern countries.

October 20, 2010 at 7:50 pm
(27) Michael Dunn says:

I can see a huge amount of irony. the people who seem to hate us are usually christian. But Jesus and god loves everybody apparently. So every christian who hates atheists are hypocrits and have helped contradict their own religion. Well done to them (not)

September 8, 2011 at 2:58 am
(28) Ryan O'Doud says:

just to ask, is there a reason you didn’t capitalize God? It’s a name. It’s a proper noun. And it’s the only error you made in your entire paragraph, which leads me to believe it’s on purpose. Are atheists against capitalizing the name God for some reason?

September 8, 2011 at 8:52 pm
(29) RespondingComment says:

Actually, he made a handful of mistakes in his comment, but given the juxtaposition with the capital ‘J’ in ‘Jesus’, it does seem intentional. I have known people who prefer to write ‘god’ rather than ‘God’ – this isn’t a mistake because we aren’t writing the proper noun. Most atheists would reference ‘your deity’ rather than the Christian god specifically, because they’re all equally unacceptable to us.

Of course, your question is flawed – atheists as a group only share on attribute, and we’re not at all organized enough to have rituals like that.

January 23, 2011 at 2:14 am
(30) Anon says:

Not surprising, I’m not religious but I find people who self-identify as “Atheist” very obnoxious. They seem to want to argue with people for the sake of arguing

January 23, 2011 at 10:49 am
(31) Austin Cline says:

Not surprising, I’m not religious but I find people who self-identify as “Atheist” very obnoxious.

Why?

They seem to want to argue with people for the sake of arguing

Seem? Did you ever consider asking them, or do you just make assumptions about people’s motivations and character?

February 1, 2011 at 4:31 pm
(32) Todd says:

Not surprising, I’m not religious but I find people who self-identify as “Feminist” very obnoxious. They seem to want to argue with people for the sake of arguing

Not surprising, I’m not religious but I find people who self-identify as “Jewish” very obnoxious. They seem to want to argue with people for the sake of arguing

Not surprising, I’m not religious but I find people who self-identify as “Christian” very obnoxious. They seem to want to argue with people for the sake of arguing

Not surprising, I’m not religious but I find people who self-identify as “Black” very obnoxious. They seem to want to argue with people for the sake of arguing

August 20, 2011 at 8:49 pm
(33) O says:

Yes, because the handful of atheists you have met in your lifetime definitely speak for the rest of us [/sarcasm]

How would you feel if I said, “all of the people who go by the online username Anon are very obnoxious, and like arguing.”?

February 2, 2011 at 2:00 am
(34) Bob says:

Why is it among Western nations America has the highest rate of incarceration? Why is it other Western countries won’t extradite murderers to the US unless a guarantee is given that the prisoner won’t be executed?

It appears other countries similar to America but tolerant of atheists and homosexuals have higher standards than America.

Incidentally Australia recently elected it’s first female prime minister. She has publicly declared herself to be an atheist. Nobody cares except perhaps a few Australian fundamentalists.

American religious seem to have an arrogant holier-than-thou attitude.

February 8, 2011 at 1:21 pm
(35) Joram Arentved says:

As I don’t believe that God Itself(!) doesn’t exist, what exists with myself, is still a self ideal that I offer myself no idea, whatsoever that I can hide from you: If it’s not my work situation, it’s at least my own opinion, still a symbol & a repetition of, what means what to me etc., so that I can of course become & believe in & as much as possible about, what
my fate mission is, all about & forever to be, ‘why & when,’ bad news? Still my own will that I don’t give into, never give myself any idea, whatsoever that I can fail to believe in, since the true question is: What IS your true purpose, if necessary on motivation, please? Greetings, ‘J.A.’ Ifoundittout@yahoo.com.

September 13, 2011 at 7:43 am
(36) Photocopier says:

I’d be curious to hear the statistics for other countries, I’m from england and over here there doesn’t seem to be any general animosity towards atheism as far as I’m aware. I’m a Christian and I often find that people are more likely to poke fun at me (maybe too harsh a phrase, ‘question’ might suffice) for believing in a god than the other way round, most of my friends are atheists some from religious backgrounds and others that were raised in mainly agnostic families. I had no idea that somewhere as developed as America still has ridiculous prejudices as part of the norm (everywhere has outliers of course). Do you have similar information from other countries? I’d be interested if I’m very lucky in my area and if in fact england is more of an anti-atheist bent after-all. I’d also like to hear the statistics in main European countries (Spain and Italy are obviously mostly catholic) and possibly a breakdown of separate states on your side of the pond. I wonder what Australia is like? If you happen to find or have any more information than that in the article already it would be fantastic and I’m sure others would appreciate the expansion too.

September 16, 2011 at 7:50 pm
(37) OZAtheist says:

Hi Photocopier,
There are statistics out there that you will find with a little Googling. Sweden is one of the least religious countries in the World – this was reported in an article in “Times” a few years ago. I was born in Sweden although raised in Australia and can attest to the very low level of religiosity there. Churches are rather empty here in Australia too and being an atheist is of no hindrance to obtaining public office here. We have an atheist Prime Minister.
The high degree of religiosity in the USA is an enigma that others like myself in the West find most puzzling. From what I have read there is a quite low level of academic achievement across a large range of American society. The standard of literacy in many of the posts on this site (mostly the pro Christian comments) attest to this. Perhaps the answer to this enigma lies here to some extent.

September 18, 2011 at 9:49 am
(38) Grandpa_In_The_East says:

Austin,

“Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.”

If this is a statement from the hand (or fingers) of Penny Edgell, Associate Professor of Sociology of the University of Minnesota and lead researcher of the study, I am disturbed. Perhaps, she really meant “respondents said they…, or “seemed to associate…” But, no. She seems to speak as if she has looked into their minds.

Perhaps a large percentage of her respondents were taught how to deal with that question many years ago in a different environment when they were very young. She should have looked deeper. If she was afraid to look deeper, she should have found a different project.

Grandpa

April 14, 2012 at 12:36 am
(39) Get Real says:

This article is nothing more than bias BS aimed at reassuring believers reading this garbage that this is how it is. These kinds of falsehoods are all the ammo that the religious right have anymore.
They’re unable to rule with the brutality of yesterday. No more burning at the stake!

I find myself in many situations where people are openly joking about religion. It’s all over the place!
We were making jokes about Easter at work last week. Most know it’s silly and many are finding out that these “holy” holidays are really re-branded Pagan celebrations. Thank you internet!

Lookout believers, the atheist ball is rolling and it’s only getting bigger at a faster pace.

April 14, 2012 at 8:23 am
(40) Austin Cline says:

This article is nothing more than bias BS aimed at reassuring believers reading this garbage that this is how it is.

Well, why aren’t you able to identify any specific errors in it?

June 9, 2013 at 11:43 am
(41) Frank says:

I would be lying if I didn’t say I have a strong sense of hate for atheists. Before I had much experience with “internet atheists,” I considered atheists just like any other group and was friends with several of them. I never felt that they were being “oppressed” or anything of the like. As a Christian I had my religion, and the atheist had every right not to believe.

However, once I became familiar with atheists on the internet, I tried to be kind and reasonable at first, but all I got back was hate, bigotry, ignorance, intransigence, bombastic idiolect, pseudo-superiority, and lies. After seeing the truth of the reality of most atheists, I can honestly say they’re the only group that I don’t want to speak to at all or be in any contact with for that matter. Some say that “not all atheists are like that,” but I’ve come to find that roughly 95% of them are. Even the ones that claim that they’re not “angry atheists” tend to ridiculously claim Christians are “oppressing them” or whatever other fantasies they tell themselves to sleep at night.

June 14, 2013 at 3:58 pm
(42) Irene says:

Frank, perhaps your idea of “kind and reasonable” isn’t what is generally understood by the terms. If what you got back was intransigence, could it be that you simply failed to convert someone to your beliefs and resented them, which colored your opinion?

If you threw out words like “idiolect” in a conversation with me, I would tend to be annoyed since I’d have to consult a dictionary, and I have a pretty good vocabulary. Right away, you’d lose ground by demonstrating YOUR bombast. Conversation should be a flow of communication, talking with each other, not at each other.

Your comment about “pseudo-superiority” is telling. Don’t YOU think YOUR beliefs are superior? Who decides which system of beliefs is true or false, if not we ourselves? Your comment seethes of hatred, which gives it less weight, in my opinion.

June 14, 2013 at 4:17 pm
(43) JTL says:

I’m an atheist. It is very simple. I do not believe in any god or gods whatsoever. That’s it, folks.

June 15, 2013 at 9:35 am
(44) Chubbins says:

I don’t agree with the idea that the democrats being associated with atheism is good and better because they are bigger proponents of the “common good.” Religion or not there is no such entity as the “common good” or the “collective” . There are only individuals working for there own self interest. The democrats say we should have more government to help others and the republicans say that capitalism helps others. Both are wrong for the same reasons. Sacrificing ourselves to the group negates personal liberty and makes any action done for ourselves as wrong. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are personal rights for individuals. Not groups of people. If an atheist believes that others are more important than themselves then they have fallen into the same trap of altruism that is the basis for all the atrocities committed by the religious. Why is the idea of selfishness a bad thing? If a person is truly selfish they respect their life as the most important value possible. If a person is selfless then their own life is worthless. As a result no other persons life could have any worth either.

June 15, 2013 at 7:11 pm
(45) Marvin says:

I can’t help asking, Frank. Why are you here?

June 21, 2013 at 10:09 am
(46) Grandpa In The East says:

I hypothesize that Frank is really one of those about whom Madalyn Murray O’Hair was referring when she said (or is alleged to have said) “Christians are nasty people.”

You’ve heard of Christian Love. It seems sometimes like another way of saying “Christian hate.”

Frank has found a place where he can really vent his venom on a whole slew of atheists. And he can turn us ALL off by clicking the x box in the upper right-hand corner.

Now if Frank could muster the courage to, for one whole week, live the life of an atheist, he would come to understand why some of us seem less than pleasant toward such as him. He would have to convince the members of his family and church that he was an atheist. Then he could just observe and experience the consequences.

Frank has not one-thousandth the courage necessary. He hides behind his bible in the womb of his religion.

Grandpa

“Not one man in a thousand has either strength of mind or goodness of heart to be an atheist. I repeat it. Not one man in a thousand has either strength of mind or goodness of heart to be an atheist.”
– Samuel Taylor Coleridge, to Thomas Allsop, ca. 1820

July 9, 2013 at 2:16 pm
(47) Grandp in the East says:

Chubbins:

It IS in your best interest to work for the common good It is a SIMPLE as that.

“Sacrificing ourselves to the group negates personal liberty and makes any action done for ourselves as wrong”. Not if we do so because we want to. Besides no one says you have to sacrifice ALL of yourself.

Grandpa

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