Prayer is Selfish Beggary
JDHURF wrote about these ideas when commenting on a blog and a number of Christians didn’t like this. They wrote their own posts in response, but:
Ironically no one even attempted to answer the question of the futility of prayer at all. They merely asserted that not everyone prayed for “presents” and selfish reasons, they said that some pray for strength and health. This was my point to begin with and I find it absurd for them to imply that I only thought people prayed for material gifts.
If one is praying for good health then that would be just as good an example of beggary and selfishness as is praying for a new car. Rather than eat healthy, exercise, and live a healthy lifestyle one is begging a supernatural force to intervene and create these results for them – weakness, helplessness, and selfish beggary.
Perhaps the “best” argument for prayer is purely psychological: praying calms a person, helping them deal with life by giving them an outlet to express their problems. It’s not unlike a placebo effect in medicine and there’s nothing necessarily objectionable about this — certainly no more so than someone meditating in order to relieve stress.
However, such a perspective on praying would appear to contradict the standard theological perspectives. If that’s all praying is, then there’s no need for the existence of any gods to answer (or not answer) them. If a religious theist admits that praying is nothing more than this, then what would that say about the rest of their religion? Perhaps everything else serves similar functions.
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JDHURF’s Secular Humanism blog is one of the best out there!! “Prayer is Selfish Beggary” is a great piece of writing, and it’s nice to see it mentioned on other sites.
Prayer is selfish beggary, huh? Okay, you do have the right to your own opinions, so I will live and let live and not judge. However, as a believing Christian who loves God more than life itself (despite my constant struggle with sin), I honestly do believe that God answers prayers, and He does so in abundance because He loves His children very much and wants us to be happy. Just because a Christian prays, it doesn’t mean that they are praying for their own selfish desires. Most of the time, we pray for the health and well-being of others. Very little often do we pray for our own needs. And if a prayer goes unanswered, it either means that we need to be patient and wait for God’s perfect timing, or maybe some of us did pray with selfish intent, or maybe it’s because God wants to bless us with something better. Oh, and by the way, I love how you Atheists complain about how Christians claim to be perfect and completely sinless in every way, then you turn around and expect us saved Christians to be perfect and completely sinless in every way, as if we are not allowed to be as human as you are and make mistakes like everybody else. Isn’t this called a double standard?
Can you prove it?
Do you have any basis for this, or are you just speaking for yourself.?
Regardless, do go back and read the article. Please note that the criticism is of praying “for something that you want,” not necessarily anything for you personally.
No. The article is a criticism of prayer, not people.
Religion is an allergic reaction to silence.
I love how you Atheists complain about how Christians claim to be perfect and completely sinless in every way…
It doesn’t matter to me if Christians claim to be sinless. I do wish one of them would define “sin” without resort to still other undefined terms, and that some of them would learn enough grammar to stop capitalizing “atheist.”
…then you turn around and expect us saved Christians to be perfect and completely sinless in every way… — Joann
I do not expect Christians to be perfect and sinless — far from it. According to your statement quoted above, it is Christians who make this claim about themselves.
… as if we are not allowed to be as human as you are and make mistakes like everybody else. — Joann
I would be flabbergasted if Christians were not at least as human and mistaken as everybody else. Why wouldn’t they be?
Isn’t this called a double standard? — Joann
In what way is it a double standard? Surely anyone has the right to notice when the claims Christians make about themselves do not match their observed behavior.
I donot feel that I expect Christians to be sinless and perfect. I DO expect them to walk their talk. Ex: a couple of years ago, a woman in my neighborhood was mugged, as she walked home from the bus coming from work. The financial take was not huge but did cost her her cell phone, about 30.00 and a necklace that a deceased friend had handmade for her. Her boss loaned her back the $30.00 and she did without another phone – she only had the cell- despite the fact her dad was in ICU states away , until she could afford it. Reportedly she had screamed this at her attacker. He had the option of dropping the purse and just taking the wallet. The necklace to this date has not been recovered-insurance would not have made up for its loss as there is no way to replace it.
A neighbor of hers is a Morman Priest- he made the comment to her about 30 days later that she was to blame for her own mugging(she is moderately dressed, not flashy and no jewelry).
And that he KNEW her assailant- that he would not send this man to jail or even the possiblity of same because it would embarrass a “Good Christian family”. (She is not Christian ) He refused to recover the necklace which needed a new chain- it was of no value to the assailant being copper enamel even when she told him of its history(generally) and that the artist was dead. That the artist had been a sort of parental figure in her life for over 30 years. She told me recently that he still maintains that he knows who had the necklace and refuses to recover it for her or give to her the information to recover it if possible. It has caused her great pain at times. Would not theethical thing have been to get the necklace and what ever remained of the contents of the purse if possible (there were no keys.credit cards or meds beyond birth control in the purse?
Let me add 1 more thing- the assailant was allegedly a coworker at a former company at which she and the Mormon priest had worked – a company that claimed to be so Christian that they changed their fax number when they bought out another company because it ended in 666…No, not perfect though responsible and ethical would be nice. Especially as there are Christians in power that are trying to regulate EVERYONE. I say start with themselves, then move on to their own – then we will see how the rest of us evaluate the progress…
hmmm… a group that claims to have cornered the market on morality has some examples of their own immorality pointed out & we’re considered hypocrites?…
What’s the real purpose of praying? It is a communication method with the living God.
If you pray for something that you want, isn’t that just begging – and doesn’t God already know what you want?
Of course God knows what you want. Is begging always a bad thing?
If you pray for something that God intends to do, then it’s redundant.
To say that it is redundant to ask for something that is already planned to happen is pretty presumptuous because plans change.
If I plan to go out to the mail box to get my mail at 6PM and my son asks me to go out and get the mail at 3PM, why is the request redundant?
Even still, what is wrong with redundancy?
If you pray for something that God doesn’t intend, then it won’t happen – and perhaps a blasphemous attempt to go against the will of God.
I don’t intend on going out to get ice cream. My son asks if we can go get some. Are you saying that we won’t go get ice cream?
Again, it seems pretty presumptuous of you to know that God will or won’t do something.
A perfect, omniscient god wouldn’t change its plans.
Because asking for something that’s already planned, instead of simply accepting whatever is planned, makes one selfish beggar.
I’m assuming nothing. A perfect, omniscient god already has everything planned out in the best way possible. Changing would lead to a lesser outcome and also be a lack of perfection on this god’s part.
What’s truly presumptuous is for you to assume that if imperfect, ignorant humans would adopt some pattern of behavior, then it’s reasonable to think that a perfect deity would do so as well. Thank you for demonstrating the degree to which humans create their gods in their own image.
Billions of prayers are prayed to dozens of gods everyday for personal selfish wants. People actually believe if they pray their cancer will be cured or their daughters wedding on Saturday will be a sunny day because their prayers will actually change the weather forcast and move the clouds around. Come on people! Praying is done out of a subliminal fear. Organized religions all teach fear/guilt. “If you don’t do this something bad will happen”.
If a god actually answers prayers why has he never answered prayers for a person who loses a leg or arm or eye etc. I have never seen a person grow a new limb because he prayed. Why would a god help you and not them? Kind of an arrogant god wouldn’t you say.
I never pray. I figure things out myself. There are catholics I know who actually believe if they pray they can change the weather forcast for their daughters wedding on saturday and make it a sunny day. Move the clouds around. Same with farmers. If they want rain they just pray and walla walla! they have changed the weather forcast for their crops. Come on people give your heads a shake and stop believing this nonsense.
Praying is just a traditional practice that your parents and churches taught you and generations before. Not based on any facts just tradition. A waste of time people!
Praying (as well as any “religious” action) can be perverted into a selfish action. That is why many people see it is as hypocritical.
In Christianity, praying can be a sin. Praying becomes a sin when it only becomes forum to express selfish needs (i.e. I want this, I want that, God give me this).
However, praying can be redeemed if the person has a right intention. I can still pray for things like my health, future, career but it needs to be un-self focused.
An example: “Please give me health so that I can serve other people. Guide my future so that I can love other people.”
Yet even this can be perverted and become selfish if a person expects God to answer this. So why pray if it is so easily turned selfish? Can prayer ever be unselfish?
The process of learning to think unselfishly and the struggle to think in God’s perspective instead of an individual’s perspective, is the redeeming quality of prayer.
We pray not because we are perfect, but because it helps us grow.
God is perfect and he planned everything.
He can change something when someone prays because he’s perfect. If he can’t change it, then he’s not capable of it, then he’s no God. So he can change it through prayer.
I believe that there is a God up there but I think he’s not guiding us but he is there to take control of everything – either in “sin” or in good things. I don’t believe that he hates sin because he made it though. Sin is here for everyone. Christ just came to put things in order – taught us to respect, love, and everything good so our consciences will be for the common good.