Little Green Footballs or Little German Fascists?
Dr. Menlo offers a quiz where you can choose between statements culled from Little Green Footballs talking about Palestinians, Arabs, Iraqis, or Muslims and those culled from Nazi fascists talking and writing about Jews:
"Nature is cruel; therefore we are also entitled to be cruel... Should I not also have the right to eliminate millions of an inferior race that multiplies like vermin?"
"I am obeying the highest law by doing my duty. Man must defend himself against bedbugs and rats -- against vermin."
"Our superiority, militarily and morally, to these vermin is so overwhelming that it would go without saying, were it not for the daily shrieking of the... press."
"I've been fond of transfer of these subhuman[s] for a while. Perhaps something more like targeted genocide... will become necessary."
"They don't need statehood; they need sterilization."
There are many other quotes in the quiz, but these should give a good indication of what it's like.
Jeff Sharlet comments on this:
It's hard to read more than a few hundred words without coming across an equation of Islam with terrorism, or a reference to all Muslims as "barbaric," or worse. The comments are, indeed, much worse, a nearly uninterrupted stream of ignorant invective: "These asshats portray themselves in a negative light. They emit negative light. They are the religion of darkness and death"; "they are animals"; "such was the deranged mind of Muhammed!!"
Also:
This strikes me as a big religion story. All the moreso because LGF won The Washington Post's contest for best international blog. Had a site which frequently referred to Jews as "vermin" (LGF has done so with regard to Muslims hundreds of times, according to one counter), I suspect the rest of the press would have paid attention. But the press ignores LGF. LGF readers, unfortunately, don't ignore me -- today my email box has been jammed with messages along the lines of "Die, arab-loving fag." There've also been accusations of anti-Semitism -- despite the fact that I'm Jewish, used to edit a Jewish magazine, continue to write for Jewish papers, and grew up being put in the position of having to fight, literally, for my right to walk down the street and be Jewish at the same time.
Not everyone who participates at Little Green Footballs is a bigot, but enough of them are to make one wonder what is going on. Is the bigotry feeding on itself, encouraging further extremism that wouldn't exist otherwise? Are people just expressing bigotry because of the anonymity — or perhaps because they have found a place where it is safe to be a bigot and explore their hateful attitudes?
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Comments
“rhetoric used by many there (Little Green Footballs) mirrors that used by Nazis when talking about the Jews”
Correction:
It should read “rhetoric used by many there (Little Green Footballs) is no different that of Americans in regard to Nazis during WWII”
If you are going to call this a “correction,” you should provide some evidence demonstrating that the original statement was incorrect. Otherwise, it’s not so much a correction as a denial of the truth.
I am simply appalled at the out and out lies Austin Cline puts forth in this article. How did this hateful and illogical screen make it to the web? What kind of fraud uses comments from a website as a quote - possibly the biggest mistake a web writer can make.
Can you cite any examples?
Are you suggesting that it is like saying the Koran is especially popular among those who want to kill Christians and Jews. I hope not.
Come on. Neither statement would be fair to the overwhelming majority of the people in either group. If you want to engage in a discussion I would ask that you at least be fair and not demonize large groups just because of a few people.
We can discuss the evils of terrorists who draw thier inspiration from the Koran without villyfying most Muslims, much as we can discuss the inappropriate statements of some people who comment on LGF without comparing most contribtors to LGF to followers of Hitler.
No.
Who has made any statements about “most contributors to LGF”? Since you bring that category up, what have “most contributors to LGF” done with respect to this sort of problem - anything at all?
The premise of the article is that most of those who post on LGF make similar statements and have similar attitudes to supremacist like Nazis and would like to kill Nazis.
I have read LGF on several occasions (though I dont post there), and the overwhelming majority of posters seem to be reasonable people who are concerned about the threat that Islamic terrorists pose to thier personal safety and thier liberty.
Why would you want to demonize such people?
Where do you get the “most” from? I already asked you who made any statements about “most contributors to LGF,” and your answer is nothing more than a restatement of your original assertion. You created that idea in your own mind and now you’re not only attributing it to me, but expecting me to answer for it.
I also asked you another question: what have “most contributors to LGF” done with respect to this sort of problem — anything at all? If the “overwhelming majority” of posters are so reasonable, then they should be stepping forward and condemning any posts that express attitudes similar to fascists and Nazis. Well, do they?
I answer the way I want to, perhaps its not the answer you like.
Sure I have seen a few irresponsible posts on LGF, and I am sure that you can find irresponsible posts on any blog, left righ or cenerists. I will also say that I have never seen a post on LGF that advocated murder of Arabs, Nazism, breaking the law or denying anyone thier human rights.
Please point out where LGF advocates Nazism or encourages hate and I will take back evcerything I said. What you may find is an occasional kook who makes an irresponsible post on LGF, but I will bet you that you will not find a post by Mr. Johnson that advocates any kind of uncivil or irresponsible conduct.
It’s not a question of “like,” but of ethical and intellectual responsibility. If you are asked to support some insinuation or claim, and then not only refuse to answer but insist on continuing to make the insinuation or claim, then you are behaving in an ethically and intellectually irresponsible manner.
No one claimed that LGF itself officially advocates Nazism or encourages hate. Once again, you are simply making things up and demanding that others answer for them. What you should do is address what others actually wrote and deal with that. If you cannot, then please admit it; if you can, then please do so. Either way, please stop making things up and pretending that others have said or claimed things they haven’t. It’s unethical.
Your topic, little green footballs or little green fascists. That title is suggestive of what.
You can play all the word games you want and suggest that I am making things up, but the factis that you have by your title suggested that the people who contribute to LGF have facist tendencies. You even suggest that they are facists by saying that that the rhetoric they use mirrors the rhetoric used by Nazis.
But you know I dont see LGF bloggers calling Muslims pigs, rats or monkeys. I can tell you who refers to Christians as such though,
Some people, yes.
No, actually, the quotes suggest that. Did you take the quiz? How did you score?
I have no idea what you do or do not see.
Feel free to provide quotes. as evidence to back up your claims.
I scored 46% on the test. Now there have been several reports of under-cover investigative films in Mosques in the UK where Jews are referred to as pigs and monkeys.
I sincerely dont know how wide spread this attitude is, and I hope it is not, because if it is not then oue children will live in a world much more bloody and violent than our own.
My prayer is that we will come to realize that the hostility is destructive. But until the day arrives when those people who strap bombs to children and send them into pizza parlors to kill other peoples children are made to believe that we will all be better off if we can live in peace, then I will try to be kind to all people but to continue to be suspicious of people who suggest that the murder of European Jews never happened, and stand with those who say we should never allow it to happen again.
My belief is that the contributors to LGF will never stand by and allow the murder of innocents or dance in the streets while Americans burn or jump out of high rise building to avoid being incinerated the way our Jewish brothers died in Poland, Austria and Germany.
That’s not very good - you should have scored better by simply picking answers randomly. You must have picked a lot of fascist statements which sounded like reasonable LGF talk and/or thought a lot of nasty LGF talk was really fascist talk.
Here’s an idea for a test: keep an eye out for a clear example of such talk. When you see it, post to publicly condemn it and all such talk. Don’t attack the person, just be very firm in your rejection of what was said and the attitudes behind it.
See what happens. Do a lot of people speak out in support, or do you get attacked as an Islamofascist sympathizer?
Christians were the first Holocaust deniers, which is appropriate since Christians were the ones who perpetrated the Holocaust.
I scored 46%, and I think many of the statements in the quiz were unreasonable and do not have a place in dialogue with polite or civilized people. I disagreed with them and would stand up to anyone who said them in my presence.
I have been doing some interesting reading recently, and much of what I have read suggests that Hitler and his henchmen were not Christians, but were believers in the occult who sought the advice of seers, but pretended to be Christian inorder to maintain political support. It is also note-worthy that Hitler’s closest middle Eastern Ally was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a Muslim and Yasser Arafat’s uncle, who was committed to the destruction of world Jewry. So to suggest that the first Holocaust deniers were a mixture of politcal opportunists, Fascists, Muslims and Christians if you would like to be accurate.
No one has ever called me Islamo-fascist sympathizer even though I have many Arab friends. In Iraq, my Arab friends used to refer to me as habibi… In Arabic it means the one close to my heart. You see I served as an advisor to the Iraqi Army during 2006 and was stationed in Taji at what used to be the Military City (the home of the Republican Guard) during Saddam Hussien’s Regime.
I saw young Iraqis suffer terrible injuries and in the 6 months I was there I helped to put 68 young Iraqis in body bags, these men had children and families, and the only reason they died was because they joined the new Iraqi Army and were resisting the efforts of Islamists who are committed to establishing a Taliban like state in Iraq.
I left friends in Iraq, men who would have died with me if we were ever over run or attacked by the Islamists, men whose families are in danger because they want a free nation for thier children, nation where the men with the big turbans and long beards can’t whip thier wives and daughters if they walk down the street without a hijab.
The overwhelming majority of the posters on Little Green Footballs believe that we have a responsibilty to resist the men with the long beards who proclaim fatwas against women who would dare to challenge thier philosophy. Is little Green Footballs perfect, absolutely not, but are most of the posters good and decent people, yes, I believe so.
Public statements in support of Christianity were almost always accompanied by private statements expressing the same idea; there is no evidence that both were lies. Of course, belief in things like astrology and predicting the future is not inconsistent with being a Christian.
Nazis who were pagans were also consistent in both public and private. They, however, were very few in number.
Having Arab friends isn’t the same as publicly condemning anti-Muslim hate. That’s a bit like insisting “I have many black friends” while refusing to speak out to your white friends when you hear them expressing racist slurs or thoughts.
You talk about Nazis who were Christians and I am sure there were, but you fail to acknowledge that they and thier allies were also Muslim (from Bosnia and the middle east), Buddhists (from Japan), Athiests, Pagans and others, yet you said earlier that the Nazis were Christians. The fact is they were a mixed bag of murderers who wanted to dominate the world and enslave the weak.
I condemn any type of hate any where. Hate is wrong, no matter what form it takes.
If there are people who expouse hate on Little Green Footballs, I condemn thier message. But I see few examples of hate on Little Green Footballs, what I see in most cases are people commenting on the atrocities of murderers who act in the name of a religious doctrine.
Do upset get emotional and make ill considered and stupid statements sometimes that can be misinterpreted? Absolutely, so it does not surprize me that some of the comments on LGF are are from people who are angry at the atrocities they read about and the wanton slaughter of innocents.
If you have ever served in the Armed Forces you would understand the brotherhood you feel with people who have a shared experience of fighting a common enemy.
I don’t know if you have ever worn a military uniform. I have for the last 20+ years, and I, as an American military professional have served with the Iraqi Army (as an advisor), I hate no Arab or Kurd with whom I have served. I have friends who are Iraqis who will always be my brothers. Today, it is almost 8 months since I left Iraq and my Iraqi friends still e-mail me. We could have died together, but we survived together, and I pray everyday that they will survive the murderous excesses of the men who are committed to the subjugation of others and the establishment of a world wide caliphate.
The overwhelming majority of posts I read on the LGF express the sentiment I just expressed. They just want a world where thier children can be free from the oppression of Islamic fanatics who strap bombs to children, fly planes into buildings and murder women whose sexual habbits they disapprove of.
There were few Muslims and Pagans involved with the Nazis in Europe. They were almost entirely Christian.
Well, you didn’t do very well on that test so perhaps your perception is off a bit? Your testimony would be more trustworthy if you could do a more reliable job distinguishing between Nazi fascism and LGF.
So because I find Nazi rhetoric and other hateful messages offensive and do my best to avoid them, the things I have to say are not trustworthy. If that does not beat everything.
Look, it is just possible that good people can disagree, and that good people with different experiences can see the same information and come to entirely different conclusions.
I believe that most people are good and generous, but they are not perfect, and when angered will do things that they later regret. What I see on Little Green Footballs are good people who are upset at what they believe are threats to thier existence, and they occasionally (and rearely) make unfortunate and bothersome statements that people can take out of context to miscontre thier motives.
Do I believe that everyone who posts on LGF is a saint. You know if I said that I would be ignoring what is obvious, the fact is that in any group of large people you will encouter a few people whose bad behavior is the exception to the norm and brings discredit on the overwhelming majority.
Disagreement should not lead to demonizing people, disagreement should give us an opportunity to explore ideas and point of views that can help us to find solutions.
No one mortal person has all the answers, everyone even a person I disagree with has many ideas that may well teach me something if I listen.
To demonize someone and compare them to Nazis discredits all they have to say and robs us of an opportunity to dialogue and share ideas.
Some radical Muslims scare me, the fellows who strap bombs to themselves and walk onto buses and kill everyone on board terrify me because of the potential threat they pose to the general population. I believe that many of the posters on LGF feel the same way.
“Listen” to them, you may learn something. I have “listened” to what you have to say, and though it is obvious that I disagree with you I have not sought to demonize or insult you. We can disagree without being unkind or disagreeable. We must first of all seek out reasonable people even if we disagree with them to begin a dialogue to address the difficulties of our present situations if we expect to be able to live on an ever shrinking world with fewer resources if we want to avoid unnecessary bloodshed. The other side of that coin is that we must be prepared to defend ourselves against those who would murder our children as they sleep.
This sounds like a classic example of the reductio ad hitlerum fallacy.
Feel free to explain and support your assertion. Or, like so many at LGF, feel free to just toss around accusations and innuendo without a hint of empirical support or logic.
It is totally wrong to say that LGF is a racist, bigoted site! If you were to follow it on a daily basis, you would see that it isn’t. What is one supposed to assume when on a daily basis terrorist attacks are perpetrated by Muslims?
What is one supposed to assume when, on a daily basis, bigotry, anti-atheist, and anti-Muslim prejudice is expressed by Christians — for example on sites like LGF?
You are getting the chicken and the egg mixed up. IF there hadn’t been all these attacks by Muslims, you wouldn’t be seeing all these postings on LGF. Tell me something. Do I - as a Jew - have the right to hate the Nazis of World War II who murdered my relatives? Or would you call me a bigot???
1. No, I’m not getting anything mixed up, I’m making a point. If generalization about Muslims is a fair response to the actions of some Muslims, then generalization about Christians is a fair response to the actions of some Christians.
2. So, you admit that there’s lots of bigotry and prejudice on LGF?
3. Are you really saying that there was no significant anti-atheist or anti-Muslim bigotry among conservative Christians a few years ago?
Such negative opinions about an narrow and specific ideology is legitimate; negative opinions about a diverse religion is bigotry. If you hate Muslims generally, you’re ever bit as much a bigot as a Nazi who hates Jews generally. Don’t forget, Nazis have believed that Jews all followed an ideology of hate and desired world conquest, much as anti-Muslim bigots say about Islam.
They just want a world where thier children can be free from the oppression of Islamic fanatics who strap bombs to children, fly planes into buildings and murder women whose sexual habbits they disapprove of.
I’m sure these things have been said about Christians/Christianity throughout history. Infact, if you read the Bible, you will see it promotes the exact things you condemn(although, not with modern technology)
You are getting the chicken and the egg mixed up. IF there hadn’t been all these attacks by Muslims, you wouldn’t be seeing all these postings on LGF. Tell me something. Do I - as a Jew - have the right to hate the Nazis of World War II who murdered my relatives? Or would you call me a bigot???
Well, if the west didn’t help establish the illegal state of Israel, forcing the Palestinians out of their land. Then back them when they continued to attack them and try to force them out of their new land(modern Palestine, Gaza, etc), then i doubt Muslims would have a problem with us. Or as much of a problem.
So, does a Muslim have the right to hate Jews and the west who forced them out of their own land, continue to terrorize and kill their relatives and friends in the land they fled to? Or would you call them a bigot/terrorist???
I don’t believe that their “terrorism” is right. Far from it! But they are obviously angry, and no one’s listening/caring!
Mr. Cline, I’m surprised at you.
I would have thought that you would be above such an egregious example of cherry picking quotes.
I am an atheist and I read LGF frequently, and though I do see a very small level of inconsiderate statements, the rest is typically well reasoned and civil.
Having once contributed often to the atheism forums here, I can recall seeing as much venom directed toward Christians on a regular basis. Of course, being a reasonable person, I don’t assume that those few examples represent the site as a whole.
In closing I’d also like to mention that when those who read your article fail to understand what you really mean, you may be in need of some rewriting.
Shane: “Your topic, little green footballs or little green fascists. That title is suggestive of what.”
Due to serious errors in basic grammar, the meaning of this collection of words is undecipherable.
“You can play all the word games you want and suggest that I am making things up, but the factis (sic) that you have by your title suggested that the people who contribute to LGF have facist (sic) tendencies.”
He suggests it and a Google search confirms it. Try “Little Green Footballs” + koranimal as but one instance.
“You even suggest that they are facists (sic) by saying that that (sic) the rhetoric they use mirrors the rhetoric used by Nazis.”
Yes, he quite accurately does.
“But you know I dont see LGF bloggers calling Muslims pigs, rats or monkeys.”
You either lie, are blind, or have a very selective memory.
“I can tell you who refers to Christians as such though,”
Again, due to serious errors in errors in basic grammar, your meaning cannot be deciphered.
Genuine Christians would not participate in or support a Holocaust, since that violates the teachings of their primary founder, Jesus.
Many more innocent people were killed by atheistic governments and political parties during the 20th century.
Atheism has contributed to people’s deaths through out history, not just some crazies over the centuries who claimed to be doing the work of God.
The atheistic world view doesn’t really rule out genocide, though. No basis for morals. There is no “Thou shalt not murder” in atheism.
Whoever wrote this article just has an ax to grind, is biased, obviously hates Christians and conservatives.
The guy who runs LGF is not really a conservative, either.
For the past several months, he has banned social conservatives and Christians merely for disagreeing with his views on Darwinism and so forth.
Christians who have done so would disagree with you over what counts as a “genuine” Christian.
Feel free to show how, specifically.
Feel free to explain what “the atheistic world view” is, in detail.
Feel free to show how.