According to a West Virginia couple, they have been harassed and even had their children taken away for six months because they are Wiccans, not Christians. They've filed a lawsuit to stop it from happening again, but Christian extremists aren't known for obeying court orders.
The Charleston Daily Mail reports:
Their [Sarah Albright and Nathan Malick III] suit claims that people in the county falsely accused them of practicing witchcraft and Satanism. By 2001, a department social worker in Nicholas County gave them $300 and urged them to leave the county, according to their suit. They took the money and moved to Clay County, where they say a social worker threatened to take their kids if they didn't get jobs closer to home.
According to the Charleston Gazette:
On one occasion, DHHR officials and a State Police trooper were called to investigate an allegation that the couple had killed their youngest child in a sacrifice and were carrying the boy’s body with them. A later DHHR visit came from another false report that the couple’s children had been sacrificed. An emergency DHHR petition was filed and the couple’s children were taken away, causing Albright to be hospitalized in October 2003, according to the lawsuit.
Remember, though, it is Christians who face continual persecution in America, not Wiccans or anyone else. Christians are the ones who suffer for their beliefs. Christians are the ones who need special protection. Wiccan couples like this... well, they’re probably just getting what they deserve. They aren’t persecuted Christians, so how can you trust them in the first place?
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What the hell kind of absurd nonsense is this? With Evangelical Christian nutcases runing the country, Christins are the ones who are persecuted? Doesn’t About.com have any controlls for quality or accuracy? This really makes me worry about the value of the rest of the acticles on this website…
Beth, it’s called “sarcasm.”
I sit here still dumbstruck at that last paragraph, the sarcasm is not easily seen as many actually do feel this way.
True, and I don’t use sarcasm like that very often… but just how likely is it that an atheism guide would write something like that and actually mean it? Sometimes, a bit of sarcasm can highlight just how ridiculous a position or belief is.
Sarcasm or not, statements like that have been have been taken as fact. Pagans and Wiccans alike have been prosecuted when statements have been taken out of context.
Wiccan in Hawaii
It’s is evident that some people don’t believe in Wiccan ideals, but I do. And the people who persecute us for being who we are are the ignorant because they truly do not understand that christians tried to stomp out paganism, and it was us who were here first.
This makes West Virginia look as backwards as it is stereotypically displayed away from here. An example “Them there Sataninist Hillbilly are out there doing evil” I do believe ignorance is a major problem. Ignorance and be cured but STUPIDITY will never be controlled. This is from a person who is has left the unseen christianity’s God to look at other religions like wicca. I say tax each and every church and see how many keep popping up and how many have hotdog sales every other day and dinners every friday “for the church” I have lost faith in businesses(churches) whom cover up major donators shortcomings but try to put there thumb on any little person. Preach them to there HELL, if there God is all knowing and all good why do we have war? why do we have sickness, rape, murder, etc. I am as of yet still undecided on which way I will turn but Wicca does not seem like a bad way to turn to, I have no-one asking me for every dollar I make when I have to work 3 jobs just to make a living.
I still can’t believe what that last paragraph said. Sadly, I know many do think that way. I was raised wiccan in southern West Virginia and you wouldn’t believe the trouble I had as a child. I had to deal with being picked on and fought with in school. And rumors.. Ohh the rumors that were started by the Christians. I still never strayed from my teachings, and I never let hate take over my heart. Funny thing is, I hear that’s what the christians are suppose to practice? Weird how not many of them do..
Wiccan should have their kids taken away. Anyone who isn’t raising their children in a Christian home should have their children taken away, it is mental, emotional and spiritual abuse. Period. End of discussion. Case closed.
I really can’t understand how somone could be so ignorant as to think that everyone should believe the same way. I’m wiccan and I’m a damn good mother. I hear of people trying to beat Jesus into their kids, sometimes literally. People kill and say it was in the name of God. There has been more hatred from Christianity than any other religion, including Islam. The Romans took Catholicism into Western Europe and burned pagans and their temples, they persecuted Jews for hundreds of years(what was Jesus? A Jew!) and then they resurrected their age old fear of witches and burned fellow devout Christians for all sorts of reasons. And this is what you would have me teach my daughter? I’ll pass.
id like to slap the piss out of u !!!!!!!!
ur religion is nothing but a bunch of murderous whores!!!!!
By that logic, you condemn more than three quarters of the world to having no children. I hope you are prepared to look after a hundred thousand children, seeing as all children will have to be distributed to loving, christian homes.
Having been raised in a southern baptist home, I can from experience say that forcing children to go to church, then terrorizing them into believing that they’ll go to hell simply for being born because of a (supposed) system that they had no say in (ie eden), then blocking out any other idea of getting out of that false threat by saying that particular type of church’s way is the only way, is the real child abuse. I seriously doubt that the non-christian kids (with the possible exception of muslim children) have as many psychological problems from their parents as christian kids do, most difficulties from non-christians of all shades come from christians…..
Teena, you’re failing at loving thy neighbor and turning the other cheek and judging not, lest ye be judged. Christianity fail.
Teena, while I admire your compassion and tolerance, the sad truth is that if children aren’t born into Christian homes to begin with, it’s already too late. You have to burn the children alive, along with the parents. It’s the only way to show them the loving power of merciful God.
In fact, we should force all non-Christian parents to have abortions and be sterilized so that those children will be spared the pain of being burned alive in the first place.
Remember, it’s not genocide if you’re killing for Jesus. It’s just getting more babies to heaven faster.
I’m pretty sure that’s a poe. I also deeply hope it us. On the internet you can never tell.
Children should live with their parents or relatives. They should meet all sorts of people, even fundamentalist blockheads.
Teena.
My three children were brought up by a Quaker mother, and atheist father, and even for a time, went, voluntarily, to Baptist Sunday school. I can honestly say all three are born again Skeptics and there are definitely influences from both parents, their basic kindliness is from their late mother. My grand daughter at 20 years is definitely atheist without one cents worth of input from me, purely from her own environmental origins, after all Australia is about 30% atheist, or at least non religious and most of the rest are not exactly dogmatic. Less than forty per cent actually attend regular religious ceremonies. Wake up America, your Canadian neighbours have.
PS Teena. I feel Wiccans are no better than any other demented believers.
But from my perspective I feel that you are saying Wiccan’s children should not be indoctrinated from birth into Witchcraft and superstition, but should be removed to be indoctrinated into your specific fantasy and spirit ridden superstitious beliefs.
What’s the difference? Both are brainwashing and that with contaminated water.
Jeeeeeez Louise! No matter how cynical I get, I just can’t keep up!
Separating children from their parents because the family doesn’t swallow the right flavor of balderdash? Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn. It’s so outrageous there just aren’t words for it.
And, yes, I can hear the Christians howling like scalded cats if anyone tried this kind of crap on them.
Todd, you seem to be under the impression that Christianity is supposed to be what the gospel authors said it was. But, as I understand it, the gospel authors somehow got confused about what God tried to inspire them to write, so God had to tell Teena what he actually intended for Christianity to be all about.
I’m not sure how many other people God has talked to lately about that, but there are very few people living today who know the real message that Jesus was preaching, and Teena is fortunate to be one of them.
Sure looks like Teena and the rest have no answers so they have run back to their cloisters for protection against truth.
The difference, My friend Tom, between christians and wiccans is that wiccans don’t go out of their way to shove their versions of fantasy down everyone else’s throats… “My imaginary friend wants you to abstain from safe sex, thinking about boobs, or just wants you dead so I can have your stuff”… wiccans have the good manners to skulk off to some dark corner for their spiritual oddities and generally leave everyone else to their own devices… Which one you want for a neighbor?
I couldn’t imagine many people less suitable, based on one small paragraph, for raising children than teena.
It is hard to imagine dictating child abuse in that short of a space, but she managed.
Short of having my kid around a RC priest, I would want them so far away from someone like that the only parallel that comes to mind is the KKK.
Most of the people who dabble in Wicca, Buddhism, etc and join Universalist “churches” are just refugees from Christianity who can no longer swallow the bs of Christianity, but who have been conditioned by the host culture into thinking that you must have SOME sort of religion. They have equated religious faith with “believe in something”, and probably swallowed the lie that religion is “moral”.
It would be interesting to see how the numbers of these people in the US compare to societies like France or Sweden where it is no longer necessary to pretend that you value or respect Christianity or church attendance. I bet in Sweden there are no Universalists, no mid-life-crisis white Buddhists, and very few Wiccans, because organised religion there is almost dead.
These quasi-religions are Religion Lite; a bridge from monotheism to atheism for those who just can’t make the move in one step. They seem to be the type of people who think that social circles don’t exist in neighbourhoods, hobbies, sports, etc, but can only be created within churches. Never having belonged to a church, I’m always baffled that people can’t figure out there are multiple ways to create a social circle.
The sooner people form social circles from their other hobbies and sports, or by meeting their neighbours, the sooner they will emotionally mature enough to leave behind Wicca, or their mid-life crisis-inspired interested in Buddhism, or their participation in a largely atheist church like the Universalists.
I’d be interested in hearing if anyone disagrees (but not if I’ve just hit a nerve and the truth isn’t something you want to admit).
Is it so awful to teach your children respect for nature, repect for neighbors and tolerence for other religions. I know of families that raised their children wiccan yet one became catholic another wiccan and the last an atheist. It has nothing to do with how you were raised. Just how you feel. Most of these post made me want to cry. America is supposed to be freedom of religion (and Wiccan is a government approved religion not a cult) yet just because someone believes something different people perscute and take away their children for no reason. For those of you that believe that non christians should have their children and/or be burned, you need to take a good look at yourself and your religion.
Hello, Teena! Come take your medicine. Perhaps it’s you who shouldn’t be raising children. It’s typical of your ilk to make a totally unfounded comment then run and hide. I’m Wiccan and with my husband raised a wonderful girl. I have no doubt that you would have reported us if you lived nearby. You should have no doubt that legal action against you would have tied you up in court for awhile.
Drew, I have to totally agree with you. I was, a long time ago, a born-again Christian in the 70′s. I went threw a variety of Christian churches. I finally gave up on organized religion in the 80′s. I spent many years doing the God-thing without a church, then to a spiritual path with meditation, looked into Buddhism and planned on joining a Universalist church. I never did. This year I finally came to my senses and realized that I don’t need a church or some sort of God. I am now happily an atheist. The gorilla is finally off my back. I joined an atheiest group and got my ‘get out of hell free’ card which I think is just a hoot!!
I’m not surprised that fundies pull crap like this, what I want to know is why these folks didn’t call the FEDS, and the ACLU, they live to screw fundie reserves like they have in west virginia!!
people have to learn to rat these fundie monkeys out every time they open their mouths, their religion is not protected to the point no one may believe any thing else in their presence!!
The correct move is to have fundies jailed and put into the three day mental evaluation, they should all be taught they do not have the right to act that way in public, and police in the area need to be jailed for backing up these nuts.
Fundies need to treated as second class citizens for inability to tolerate other belief systems, they are religious FACISTS just like the Taliban and need to be prosecuted for their beliefs, they are terrorists and need to charged with it, whern you contact the feds, inform on the scum as DOMESTIC TERRORISTS, because thats what they are!!!
..TEENA. Do your research sweet heart before you come out of you pew slinging your beliefs. It is your religion that is a contradiction to itself. Most spend majority of their days casting judgements and negativity amoung others. Beliefs like yours feeds into the negative. If your educated enough you’d realize your precious EPIC STORY is nothing more than that. Used to control and direct those with no true self power of thought. Satan is a belief of christianity and catholics alike. However did you ever stop to learn that Wiccans do not have any such beliefs in Satan. It’s nothing more than a creation of christians to place the blame of their own negative actions. Giving energy, thought and belief to something allows for it to have power and control. So whom is it that the “devil” really resides in. ? You don’t hear victim after victim from Wiccan and Pagan “churches” about Father “Dittle” molesting them. Really educate your self. Before someone gets the bright idea to take your children away for your ignorant stupidity.
Wiccan Rite state.
Do what ye Will, Harm None.
Teena suffers from a small isolated mind and heart.
Read, study, grow, leave the holler for a night or two Teena, mingle, experience those that feel differently about life, open your mind and heart to other possibilities! Reach out, ask for help!!!!!!!!
The worst things in history have been doen in the name of Christianity. I just left the ministry after 20 years of dealing with other ministers who lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, work part time for full time pay or treat the job like a retirement fund. I have friends who are called pagans and they have never done any of that and have always been there when I needed them. Harm none is the Wiccan creed. Worship God in Nature, what ever you do comes back to you three fold so do no evil. Ha Christians think they don’t have to pay for anything they have done if they asked to be forgiven. There are more pagan rituals than they know in the Christian church. The early church fathers believed in reincarnation and a lot of things Christians now call pagan. Teena get an education and take the log out of your own eye first. Good people are good people no matter what their religion.
I grew up different religions. Catholic, mormon, baptist, athiest, and currently wiccan. What happens to “freedom of religions” in the constitution? Did it got removed??? Last I recalled its still there. Christianity should know better. But they forget about “cast no stone” in their bible. Christianity is big on kkk, homophobic, burning wiccan at stake. But christianity have their own problems, they broke the 10 commandments. We are not in any ways, shapes or forms to harm others. I shoulda smack them on their head with their bible like preachers did in old day to condemn sins when they are protesting gay marchings and rights. Mostly I see christianity do this hateful things are white. I think they’re same people who have a say about mosque in the old wtc site.
The problem with being Wiccan today is that everyone else seems to believe Wiccans are DEVIL WORSHIPPERS…they have never taken the time to see what we really believe in,,that we above all others believe in live and let live,,That our FIRST law and to HARM NO ONE!!! and,,that our belief system is based on the basic principles that Mother Earth will provide everything we need ,,be it food or healing or light or whatever,,People in general see us as Standing around a camp fire stark naked covered in blood and screaming for satan,,OMG!! the movies have propagated that image of us,,,nothing will ever change until people really get to know the Wiccan next door,,,oh and by the way,,throw saalt over your shoulder,,,thats wiccan,,tea bag on a sty,,thats wiccan,,,sage in your holiday meal,,,know why? cause holiday meals tend to breed attitude problems,,little spit fights to raging fist fights,,,sage just helps keep THAT to a minimum,,a wiccan who does harm can expect the evil to come back at them 3 fold,,which is simply 3 times harder than they gave it out,,we just dont believe in doing harm,,,now,,dont get me wrong,,there are those who practice,,,”BLACK MAJIK but they are NOT wiccans,,they are a perversion of it,,,a true wicca is probably the nicest person you will ever meet,,,and tried very hard to help,,,heal,,,and cure even the earth itself,,so learn people LEARN,,,dont kill the indians for being savage,,,dont kill the black for being black and dont kill the wiccan for being wiccan,,,,will we NEVER LEARN????
Anyone who is scared…go to church! Learn what the true meaning of “being christian” is and then run for the door! I am tired of hearing about ignorant, scared people trying to force their fear based beliefs on other people and causing so much strife in the world! War in Gods name, taking children from loving homes…who the hell are they to think they have the right! People need to research and truly learn about other people and their religions or belief systems before they judge. Wicca is a truly beautiful and spiritual journey that if more people would take the time to understand, would want to be a part of it.
I just dont see why people are so adamant about christianity being the only religion in the americas
IN the constitution it says we have freedom of religion. What it should say is “Freedom of the Christian religion
Wow, why is everyone upset at just Teena’s reply!? Look at what MrMarkAZ wrote!
I am pregnant with my first child and I am Wiccan. I am truly scared of people like Teena and MrMarkAZ! I live in Missouri, what if they try to take my baby just because of the way I believe!?
I married a Christian man and he accepts me for who I am, and so does his family! Yes, Christians are suppose to push their religion on others, it says so (in so many words) in the King James version. But my husband would NEVER do such a thing!
I believe that everyone needs to wake up! This is ridiculous…I can’t even describe my anger, how upset I am at this…just how easy the burning ages could come back!
You all will burn in your own hell…
I believe he was being sarcastic. But that’s “Poe’s Law” for ya.
I would say, in general, that people raised in wiccan households are more likely to be intelligent, well rounded individuals than those raised in christian homes.
Teena. You want to talk about child abuse, see “Jesus Camp” or the nut cases teaching their children against evolution.
Oh my god, you can just feel the love and compassion on this board cant you is’nt that right Teena. Removing kids becuase they have a different religion to you…oh didums. As for you MrMarkAZ, oyu truly are the most disgusting piece of filth i have ever had the misfortune of encountering. I just hope for the sake of society that you are an elaborate poe, becuase if this is what you truly beleive then you are vile. The irony of course being that christians accuse us atheists of having no morals, we regardless to if Mark is a poe or not, i ( and all of the other people who have rightly derided you) have far greater morals than you will ever have. I have a very close freind of mine in the US who is Wiccan ( im from the UK) and she is the best mother and one of the nicest people i konw. if thats how evil wicca is, im glad im not a christian
Wiccaninthebiblebelt – I’m pretty sure MrMarkAZ was being sarcastic…
Wiccaninthebiblebelt, MrMarkAZ was being heavily sarcastic.
As for Teena, I hope she was actually a pathetic internet troll.
Can someone explain to my why one set of mythological beliefs (christianity) is superior to another set of mythological beliefs (paganism)?
I can NOT believe this happens in the 21st Century.
Christianity = Love, kindness and friendship? Yeah. Right.
Emily, you just prove that you don’t know anything about what Wicca actually is. Wicca is a neopagan faith founded by Margaret Murray, an Egyptologist in the 1920′s and later popularized by Gerald Gardner in the 1950′s and 60′s. It is NOT original Pagan of any stripe and you just showed that you call yourself a Wiccan because you think it’s ‘cool’ to follow witchcraft.
In that sense, technically the Christians were here first, considering Christianity has been around since the 400′s ((That is if you don’t consider Jesus’ personal followers as the first Christians)).
And before you say anything, I’m not a Christian, I was raised Jewish and spiritually I’m a Pantheist. I’m just sick of these kids who think Wicca is actually ancient Druidism or some other Pagan faith.
That being said, anyone who thinks they have a right to take away someone’s children based on their religious beliefs should be sterilized and not permitted to have children of their own.
And Teena, keep your mouth shut. Your a bigoted fundie nut job and nobody thinks your right.
I feel that this post is completely irrational. I myself am Wiccan, and Wicca is a nature of the earth and of giving goodness to the world. We believe in harming none and would never do the things this couple was accused of doing. For you to turn this into an argument that Christians are discriminated against and oppressed is unrealistic. People who follow Wicca are often denied iterance into certain programs, jobs, and groups because of their religious practices. Christians are often, but not always, the ones who do the discriminating.
I would also like to point out to you that Wicca is a legally recognized religion in the United States and therefore its practitioners are protected by federal law and this event should have never been allowed to happen in the first place. I ask that you please, do not judge a religion that you obviously know nothing about. I know about Christianity, my boyfriend and all of my families are devout Christians, and I have gone to church all of my life, yet I am Wiccan. I accept that you are out there and will never try to oppress or smack talk your beliefs, but I ask that in return you respect ours. Thank you very much. Blessed be.
I have read through each post here, and to be honest, I can not BELIEVE what i have seen here! If a parent is fit, if they care for their child, feed them, cloth them, love them, teach them then what the hell does it matter what belief system they choose to teach their child.. It is not about what your religion is! it’s about having something, someone, weather it be the christian god, the Pagan gods/goddess’s, buddha, Gia, or any other god you choose to worship, To believe in, the belief that someone or something is there helping you through the times that are so hard you can hardly bare them. Something or someone that will love you and guide you and help you to move through whatever path you choose in your life…… As long as your child is growing, developing, learning, as long as they know they are loved, cared for, and have something to believe in, then what does it matter what you choose to call that “someone!!!”
And HOW DARE OUR GOVERNMENT that claims to give us freedom of religion and speech take away children from their parents who love them simply because of the belief system they choose! How DARE they infringe upon OUR RIGHTS as parents to raise and teach our children the way we see fit. how DARE they infringe on our first amendment.
If anything, no matter what religion or belief system you follow you should ALL be outraged at this this this Horrific, disgusting attempt to infringe upon the rights of the people of this country!! If they take these children away just because of what their parents believe what is to stop them from taking away christian children next? Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics….. or any other you might be able to think of…. Who says they will not be next!!!! in this country we have the RIGHT to CHOOSE our religion, isn’t that why our ancestors came here to start with! and how DARE they try to take those rights away now!!!!!
You should all be ashamed of yourselves… your personal beliefs as far as religion shouldn’t even play a part in this discussion, instead the fact that this is happening, to ANY family of ANY religion should appall you!
Oh, and one more thing, for you little miss Teena as a WICCAN MOTHER I would like to state While your god teaches your children, that they can not want, they can not desire, they can not live their lives any way other then his way, while it teaches them that the slightest wrong will be delt with in the most harsh manner, ours as us nothing more then this.
An ye harm none, do as they wilt
one simple line… yet it encompasses everything you teach your children, do not kill, to not steal, to not take anothers wife/husband…….. your religion might place alot of laws upon you, you Christians claim that our religion gives us an excuse to live however we like, to break any law to do whatever we want without repercussion but your wrong. our one law gives us more restriction then the dozens of the laws of Christianity, we can not harm anything, ourselves, others, that means, no stealing, no killing, no raping no adultery, we can not even speak a harsh word because it could hurt the one listening. yet WE are the ones who have a religion that allows us to get away with anything… I think it is the other way around…. your god allows you the freedom to choose, you can do anything you like, your punishment does not come til after you are dead. (something i find very unfair to christians btw, they are told what might come, but they really have no clue until it happens) ours is served almost instantly as the laws of karma are swiftly justified…. keep in mind the rule of 3, 3 times bad 3 times good. if you do harm onto another it will come back to you 3 times if you do good it in turn will come back upon you 3 times. considering how many CHRISTIANS believe in Karma maybe you should look to yourself before you speak to others.
And I must agree with Todd
Teena, you’re failing at loving thy neighbor and turning the other cheek and judging not, lest ye be judged. Christianity fail.
And I would like to add, “before you pull the splinter from anothers eye, you must first pull the PLANK from yours.”
I feel for any child that you might raise as he or she will grow to be just as closed minded, harsh and morally bankrupt as their mother.
Either way to judge a persons parting skills by their religion is unconstitutional, cruel and morally WRONG. no matter what your religion you should be OUTRAGED at this!
I must be cautious about what I say, both to protect my family and to abide by the “gag order” imposed in regard to the final settlement of our civil case. I can say, however, that we are doing very well, we are in a safe and supportive environment, and our oldest two children will be leaving for college this fall. I must confess I did not know this website existed until I accidentally stumbled upon it. I was quite humbled to see how many of you supported us. So many people seem to forget that the Constitution grants everyone the right to practice (or not practice) any religion they choose. Our constitutional rights are what make our country great, yet so many people seem intent on undermining it. How can anyone be against the separation of church and state? Do they wish to return to the earliest days of our country, and re-institute Puritanism? Or do they want to try out Sharia law for awhile? Maybe they just want Christianity to reign supreme – but which type of Christianity? The Roman Catholic Church? One of the Protestant Churches? The basic Southern Baptists, or the snake-handling kind? Which Bible would they even use; there are so many different versions! Don’t these people understand that by supporting our right to practice Wicca, they are also supporting their own right to practice whatever version of Christianity they happen to like best?
Over the years I have witnessed so many of our most basic rights being eroded away; and not just freedom of religion. It is rather disconcerting. It is heartening to know that there are other people who realize that the rights enumerated in our Constitution apply to us all; if those rights didn’t apply to everyone, then they wouldn’t be rights at all!
I’m glad to hear that you are all doing well! Thank you for updating us on your situation, at least insofar as you are allowed. It’s a shame when people are prevented from telling the world about either justice or injustice simply because the truth is inconvenient to those in power.
I just want to say thanks to everyone who has supported us throughout our ordeal!
I wanted to mention one more thing. My best friend of 19 years is an Atheist. He has taught me much about my own beliefs as a Wiccan, odd as that may sound. Over the years, the rational, logical questions he has posed to me have made me think more deeply about my own views, and have led me to seek my own answers, rather than just blindly following “faith”. Yes, I and my family are still unabashedly Wiccan; however, for example, I do not believe that there is actually a female Goddess and a male God floating around somewhere. I believe there is a creator, (or first cause, as it may be) and that as a Wiccan I simply personify this creator as “Goddess and God” to make it easier to relate to. To put it quite simply, why would the creator need genitals? Anyway, I wish I could say more about the final outcome of our case other than to say we are quite pleased. I asked our lawyers (again) but was told to “keep my mouth shut”. While I realize this must be, both to follow the court order and to protect my coven against those who might try to harm us, it is still rather annoying. Thank you again, and I will be in touch. Sarah
Not really. Sometimes you can learn a lot more from an outsider than from an insider – and that applies to anything, not just religion. Outsiders don’t share all of your assumptions and don’t take for granted the things you take for granted. This allows them to ask the sorts of questions you might never think to ask. Those questions can force you to reconsider things you stopped thinking consciously and deliberately about.
Atheists are, in some ways, the “ultimate outsider”. A Christian or Muslim would at least share certain assumptions with you about the existence of the supernatural, the idea of gods having gender, etc. Atheists, though, are outside all of that and thus can ask even more questions.
Similarly, a person from another country can force you to ask questions about American culture that you take for granted because you’ve always lived with them. They can force you to ask questions about American politics because you’re used to the sorts of choices Democrats and Republicans give you.
This is why it’s so helpful to be exposed to people with radically different politics, religion, culture, etc.
I have encountered Wiccans with a similar perspective. I’ve been given to believe that it represents something like an “atheist” strain in Wicca – perhaps not always technically and strictly atheist, but close because it rejects literal gods in the traditional sense. Instead, it recognizes that what is referred to as a “deity” is (as you say) a personification in one’s own mind of otherwise natural forces.
It’s a bit of a challenge for the usual definition of “atheism”. If you worship a tree and call that tree a god or a manifestation of a god, then it’s easy to say you’re a theist (even though I agree the tree exists, but don’t think the tree is a god). Key is that you consider it a “god” independent of your own thoughts and opinions. The same would be the case if you considered the universe a “god”.
But what if your personification is personal and in your mind? The tree, the universe, or whatever it is still exists but if its status as “deity” is a function of how you approach it and not something you claim is inherent in it, are you a “theist”?
Normally, “theism” is defined as belief that some sort of god exists “out there.” Even I believe that gods “exist” in people’s minds and opinions, but I’m not a theist so that doesn’t count – the god has to be “out there,” independent of us for it really count as “theism.”
So if the “god” part of what you believe is not “out there,” there’s a case to be made for regarding your religion as sort of “Wiccan atheism” or “atheistic Wicca” (and there are other religions that have atheistic strains, so Wicca wouldn’t be unusual in this). On the other hand, using “atheistic” here would seem to contradict the fact that you use theistic terminology (even if in a non-literal way). And it probably doesn’t feel quite right or accurate.
Anyway, I find the issue interesting because it’s just about the only area where there is a real and serious challenge to the usual notions of what separates atheism and theism. Usually the distinction between the two is sharp and obvious; you, however, seem to be one of those inhabiting an area where it becomes a bit blurry. I thought it worth exploring here both because you mentioned the issue and because it fit in well with your earlier point about challenging assumptions – an atheist challenged some of your assumptions and you can serve to challenge some of the things which atheists take for granted.
And I do understand the need to avoid saying anything specific about the legal case. It’s a shame, but I certainly don’t blame you or anything. I’m just glad it turned out well and happy that you could at least share that much with us here. Thank you!
Sarah here. My best friend has accused me of being a “latent atheist” more than once. I assure you, however, that I do believe in a Creator, based on my own experiences. That said, anyone who believes in God based on my subjective experiences is 1)not thinking for his or herself and 2)a moron. I and my family do practice rites, rituals, and spellwork just as I was taught to do in the Wiccan tradition (although my parents and grandparents just used the words witch and “how we did it in the old country” and the like.) But, when I do spellwork, for instance, I do not feel I’m doing anything “unnatural”. The best way to explain this is to use an example. For many years, midwives ritually “purified” themselves by dipping their hands in salt water before delivering a child. This resulted in lower maternal death rates, presumably because the Goddess was pleased. But then science began to gain an understanding of bacterial infections and it was realized that the salt water was simply killing germs. I believe that science holds the key to how “spells” really work, and eventually it will be able to give us the explanations. Science, to me, is the closest we can get to understanding the Creator’s “mind”
Further, I do believe the Creator has given us certain laws; the law of gravity, mathematics, the need to drink fluids and eat food, and the speed of light, just to name a few. These laws are quite difficult to break; just look at the law that says the earth revolves around the sun. The Catholic Church tried to break that one for centuries, all to no avail. Morals, on the other hand, are not laws of the Creator. Morals are changeable, depending on the circumstances and what the individual person in said circumstances feels would be the proper course of action to ensure the best possible outcome. (The best possible outcome being the one which produces the most good) (and yes, I know “good” is a relative term). While some may argue that there are basic, unchangeable morals, I can only answer that with another example. Just about everyone would agree that cannibalism is morally wrong. However, cannibalism was approved by the Catholic Church in the case of 29 Chilean soccer players and family members aboard an aircraft that crashed in the Andes Mountains in 1972. The crash survivors were left for dead when the plane could not be found after an exhaustive search, and with nothing but miles of bare snow-covered rocks around them, the survivors turned to the only source of food they had – the bodies of the dead. Upon their eventual rescue, the Church officially condoned the actions of the survivors, stating that to not eat the dead would have been suicide (and suicide is a sin). So, as I see it, morals are changeable and breakable, whereas The Creator’s laws are not. Anyway, I hope you don’t mind my writing you; I just enjoy talking with atheists, agnostics, techno-pagans, and eclectic witches, as most other people tend to get a tad freaked out when I talk about things like this. Thus, I don’t get to talk freely very often. Sarah
I am originally from southern WV. As an atheist, I am the black sheep of my family. My mother thinks my “head is messed up.” My ex husband insists that my 18 year old daughter “lead prayer” when she has insisted that she doesn’t want to
I used to hold my tongue and bow my head out of respect to them. However, I don’t do that any more. I don’t bow my head when they pray, and I don’t keep my mouth shut when they say stupid things.
My daughter is still doing those things, only because she sees how I have been treated over the years. When she was growing up, I never went to church. I let her go with family and friends if she wanted to She has gone to fundamental baptist churches, to catholic churches, to Jewish temple, and to black pentecostal churches. She has since learned that all of them are just plain full of crap.
I guess what I’m saying is that, based on my experiences in southern WV, I’m not at all surprised at this. It’s ridiculous what goes on there.
I taught at the local high school for several years. One of the English teachers preached in her class almost every day. The students, even a lot of the Christian ones, came and complained to me. They felt very uncomfortable in that classroom. Going to the principal did no good. This teacher finally got ill and retired. It happens every day down there.
To MrMarkAZ
you my good sir are an idiot. I am a fifteen year old Paga…. Burn me
ok here’s the stupid part. we live in a country where we are supposed 2 have freedom of speech and religion. whts wrong w/this picture?
my son got taken away just cuz i was trying 2 raise him right in a non smoking and drug environment. and they put him in a drinking and smoking environment. and according to thm i have no religion. or they thought i was christian… and y r all the kids staying in drug related homes? cps should b thinking and retake child development classes and parenting classes. every family has the right 2 raise their kids any way they so choose or so we thought w/this country
Religion has been argued about and wars fought over it for thousands of years….Why should mankind change now? (sarcasm) I have recently been told by my Grandchilds MOTHER that because I worship trees and grass (Wiccan) I can no longer have anything to do with my Grandchild…..and I quote…”Stay the F— away from my daughter….and this person claims to be VERY RELIGIOUS>>>>
I think that that is disgusting! Why should anyone follow a religion they do not want to follow? Firstly, I am Wiccan and a main reason of following this religion is that you do not harm any living thing therefore the couple would not kill their children and the DHHS or whoever should research Wicca before accusing people of murder!
it just pisses me off 2 no end ive been bing told 4 yrs that we r safe. and 2 this day if law would alowe it u can bet we would still b burnt at the stake, our loved ones stoned 2 death, and so on hateis still there and as far as im conserned cristens r the biggest group haters out there. im wicca and ill use what i know 2 help people and my abilitys 2 lead those who want 2 learn. ill never give up (God) mayb ok but cristens go 2 far. intruth the name (God) pisses me off may the gods and goddeses watch over each and everyone of us
hey i have been a member of the christian faith. was not judged by non -christians. however tho shall not judge is a big part of your religon and most of you do to yourselves and others. wiccan number one rule is harm non that means we don’t kill for sins or sacrifice. if they did kill there child they were no wiccans. but isn’t there a nice story in the bible about a man who tried to slay his son because God told him to? and who wants to kill an animal catch it on fire and burn it to show the love God. no god of mine would ask me to kill, not for land, love, or sacrifice.
Then you must reject the Old Testament.