Bible Verses on a Fire Truck
Thursday April 8, 2004
A fire truck in Marion, Indiana, now has part of a Bible verse painted on the side: "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil" (from Psalm 23). This isn't a volunteer fire department, it's a city fire department. I wonder why they thought it was OK to use public vehicles to endorse one religion's scriptures?
The Chronicle-Tribune reports:
[N]ot everyone is happy about the choice of words placed on a city vehicle. "I don't think any part of religion should be mixed with politics," said Marion City Councilwoman Ann Secttor, R-Ward 2, who is Jewish, adding that people should be unbiased and tolerant of other views.
Mayor Wayne Seybold said Wednesday that he had not seen the verse on the truck. "But we need to talk about it, and if it's going to cause a problem, then we'll get rid of it," he said. "We've got a diversified community here in Marion, and we need to make sure that we're mindful of that."
This verse might mean a lot to individual firefighters, and if they want to carry it on something that is on their persons, there shouldn't be a problem with that. Putting religious scripture, symbols, and endorsements on public vehicles, however, stops being personal/private speech and becomes official/government speech - and this isn't something that the government should be doing. It doesn't look like they checked with anyone before doing it and must have assumed that no one would object to a Bible verse - but that's often the problem with religious bigotry. People assume that no one would object their religion being given special endorsement.
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Comments
Writing a specific Bible verse on the side of a fire engine is not endorsing a religion at all, but merely giving fire fighters hope. Whoever believes that this is an endorsement and is offended by it does not have enough faith in their specific religion or lack there of. How is this endorsing a a religion at all and how could anyone ever call this religious bigotry?
It’s endorsing a religion because it’s showing favoritism towards that religion and, in fact, whatever factions in that religion focus upon that particular verse.
It’s bigotry because at the same time it denigrates all the other religions which don’t use those scriptures. The government doesn’t have the authority to pick out any one religion, any one religious scripture, or any one verse from a scripture for endorsement or favoritism.
Has anyone thought that when they decided on it, they may not have realized it was a bible verse? I’ve used it before, and didn’t know where it came from…I thought it was pretty generic… And from what this says, it’s not really advertising the religion…if it said specifically “Psalm 23″ or the rest of the verse, or something of that sort yeah, i can see where the issue would come from. This doesn’t do that. It doesn’t specifically state that any higher power is watching over us; as firefighters… we watch out for each other, and we fear no evil because we know our “brother” (all firefighters are brothers, or sisters…we’re all a family) is right there with us. This is a basic description of how we do our jobs. Going into a burning building is a scary thing to do. Knowing our brothers or sisters are right there with us, watching us, protecting us, is what makes us fear no evil. It should stay. Period.
ok once again the subject of using some kind of religious subject in public has come up. I am a volunteer fire fighter and i have heard this verse said many of times both at a fellow brothers funeral and just said from some one who didnt know where it came from. why are people causeing a big deal over it i mean its not forcing that religion on to them infact there not forced to read it. its there cause its somthing that they either feel is a verse thats close to them, i have read over and over after a big fire, or maybe casue we walk through places that are pretty much a “valley of death”. dont attack the fire dept casue this they did no wrong its just a verse thats it. o and has every one forgot about our freedome of speech and religion its the usa we should be able to use it specialy the people who put there lifes on the lines to save others or keep our country free, GOD BLESS AMERICA
It would be difficult not to read it if you look at the truck. Regardless, it’s a display of official, government endorsement of religion and that’s illegal. The government has no authority to single out any religion for special support, favoritism, or endorsement.
No one has forgotten it; what you have forgotten, or may not know, is that this only applies to individuals acting as private citizens. It doesn’t apply to any government department (like the fire department) or any government employee acting as an officer of the government.
That’s a pretty meaningless statement if your claim that you didn’t know the origin of the verse were true.
No Biblical verse has ever been written so that it hasn’t been repeated in a secular way. Use the secular version and forget the footnote. (Of course we really know what this is all about.)
Lurn two spill!
I wonder how those who support this unconstitutional use of public property to promote religion would feel if they’d put “No gods. No masters.” on the side of the fire truck.
We need all the help we can sometimes. when you roll to a call and you find yourself praying to god that everything turns out…. then you come back here and say your piece.
until then… worry about the decals on your own car.
Stay safe brothers.
have you ever ran into a burning building to save someone or somone elses belongings and property.. well when your in there. when your in the middle there is no GOD to you at that point. But there is a devil and you are dancing with him.. you are in his house. No matter what people might think, fire is a person, it eats, sleeps, walks and kills. Fire is a hell of a thing when your starring at it with only a hose in between you.. Its not just fire. The fire department goes to everything. If somone cant breath the fire department goes. If somone is trapped in a pipe the fire department goes. If somone rolls there car 4 times gets thrown through a windshield and they are laying on the pavement the fire department goes.. We see and deal with EVERYTHING. We see mother of four who gets blindsided. We see the car of teenage sisters who gets hit by a cement truck leaving the single mother alone, not just because she lost her two girls but she also just lost her husband in Iraq not two weeks earlier. We see the two infant boys who drownd while the parents were drinking at a bar.. We are forced to see and deal with things we often dont agree with.. So if we want to put a SLOGAN on the side of our trucks that gives us the modivation to keep doing what we are doing then let us.. this isnt about a “bible verse” we have all seen and heard this one.. this verse is a SLOGAN.. This is about people who try and find and nitpick every little thing wrong just so they can bitch about it… Leave the public service people alone and let us do our jobs so we can come pull your ass out of a jam someday…
look i agree with b-bop, it is not so much that it is a bible verse for us, it is the fact that it is slogan or almost a way of life. we trudge through two or more feet of debris, blood and guts all day. the lord is my shepherd, he protects me from flame,fallin debris,bloodborn pathogens, etc:. i recite this “slogan” when i am in a burning building… it reminds me that even if something unforseen shall happen that the lord will protect. i am a christian firefighter,if you don’t like religion, then don’t be a christian, otherwise read the bible and shut the heck up!!! p.s. if you would really read and study, religions like jehova’s witness and all the other “modern religions” out there took the “original” copy of the bible.. read it and changed it to say what they want to say….. if you are gonna criticize get some knowledge to back yourself up so that you don’t look so stupid
You may consider it a way of life, but it is also a Bible verse and religious statement.
You are free to do so; you are not free to write it on the side of public property, though.
It’s not about liking or not liking religion; it’s about not liking the use of the government to promote someone’s personal religious beliefs.
I could say the same about Christians who write comments here complaining about things that are false instead of addressing the actual issues.
Feel free to believe in whatever you want. Just don’t throw it in my face.
look i agree with b-bop,being in the military as a FF we see all sorts of things people shouldnt have to, and if something like that keeps the moral up and the spirts high while giving us all hope then leave it be. And when you fill our positions and go through things described above on a daily bases, then i think you can have some weight to what you say. and if you really have a problem with that rolling up to you house our car when your in need then call somebody else who wont offend you have your neighbor run in to get you, becuase i gerantie at that moment that veres is the last thing on your mind. But while we walk through that house,building,woods,street, or desert its playing over in ours helping us push though and do our job. STAY STRONG BROTHERS
becuase i “Guarantee” at that moment
“Austin Cline” you remind me of that kid back in middle school who would always yell, “teacher, teacher its Friday and you didn’t give us any home work for the weekend” just to be a prick yeah that’s you. Regardless of that this is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND IT WAS FOUNDED BY OUR FORE FATHERS AS A CHRISTIAN NATION, “ONE NATION UNDER GOD” if you ever get on here and read this please write me or my brother back at ericharris_1@msn.com or my brother at thelordrestoresme@gmail.com and trust me my brother would destroy you in a debate about this. Here’s a fun fact, there are no atheist in hell
Here’s a fun fact, there are no atheist in hell
Apologetics FAIL.
I think there can be argument that the phrase really isn’t necessarily religious anymore. It does come from a holy book, but itself, isn’t speaking directly to religious tenets – and has been used in non-religious settings for the feel of the words. I prefer the bit out of Dune, myself, for comparison.
I think that a slogan on the truck itself is kinda odd. There’s alot of equipment on a truck, to start with, so there isn’t a whole lotta room for a slogan/saying, and it won’t be visible while you’re actually doing the work (at least generally). If its for morale/support of other firefighters/yourself – placement on helmets and jackets seems better for that purpose. Maybe its there too?
@Pocket Rocket:
The United States of America was not “founded by our fore fathers as a christian nation.” The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, “We the people,” and contains no mention of “God” or “Christianity.” “Under god” was added to the Pledge of Allegiance on June 14th, 1954 under influence by The Knights of Columbus.
Stupid Americans that refuse to use reasoning or their own minds – too busy listening to crap on Fox or CNN, all lies at least 50% of their “news”. Would God bless a country that has built their wealth or taking the advantage of the poor and killing millions of innocent civilians, no integrity here! USA killed over 2 million south east Asian people and just recently over 200 thousand Iraqi peoples, would God bless that? America will get its just due and very soon, it is called tribulation and then of course millenium. False religion will be destroyed along with the New Babylon or USA and all governments in this system of things.
Unfortunately, not a single one of the “one-time-posters” above learned a single thing from reading this article. No wonder they’re called “faith-heads”.
In my unit of the Canadian military, such religious nonsense is not the norm. A few more decades and the same will be true in the US.
(3) firefighter: You may be right, most xians I encounter know less about their bible than my atheist friends, so they may not have known. Doesn’t make it right, ignorance of the law and all that.
(4) scott: If it’s no big deal and the public are not forced to read it, then you won’t mind if we advertise porn films on the side of city buses, will you? Don’t use my tax dollars to advertise your personal beliefs or agendas, they are not everyone’s!
(10) b-bop: The firefighter I want coming to rescue me is the one most versed in the physics, chemistry, and other scientific studies that pertain to fire. Not one who is fantasizing they’re fighting a living entity or “fire breathing dragon” as it were, and praying to the unicorn god to help them!
(11) Gafirefighter; Austin needs to obtain some knowledge? Yeah, that’s it, you are more knowledgeable than Austin in these matters! I hate to reinforce stereotypes, but does GA stand for Georgia? Sorry, that probably wasn’t very nice, but your ignorance made me do it. Of course there’s always the chance you won’t understand the inference.
Last but not least, after having heard the FF’s rant, I remind you without consideration for their “brothers” who are atheist, and who still “miraculously” perform the same job minus the superstition, I must speak for the police officers out there. Having spent most of my adult life on the force, and having experienced many a dangerous situation over the years (I won’t bore you with dramatization as others have done),I performed my job well, ethically, and without the tooth fairy. I depended on my training, diligence, and intellect not incantations!
I say that we put a bible verse on the fire truck referencing slavery and see if anyone finds it offensive and thinks its an endosrsement of slavery. Are you people that unaware of the fact that it would be seen by non-christians as an endorsement of the christian religion. are you christians really that blind, if you are i would suggest moving to an islamic country and experiencing real persecution firsthand and maybe then you’ll be grateful for the religious liberty we in america enjoy. Here in the USA we have the right to believe or disbelieve in a god, and that is how i would like to keep it.
When I read the first paragraph and saw there were 22 comments I couldn’t imagine why. You take the bible verse off the truck and that’s the end of it. Who would debate that?
There is not an “other” side to this.
Quite honestly, it doesn’t matter what all the firefighters, bible humpers or atheists think, it’s blatant, illegal, and comes off. Done.
If tax dollars pay for it, it cannot represent one religion. In the United States, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Wiccan’s, atheists, agnostics, Hindu’s, etc, all stand on the same ground.
We cannot have a christian saying on the side of a truck paid for by the state. I’m not a christian, I don’t want it there and I have as much right as anyone. It’s no more complicated than that. The only fair way to solve the issue, is to separate church and state, which is why we do.
Also, spare me the piousness of the firefighters on here. There are good ones and crappy ones like any other occupation. The good, hardworking ones deserve our respect like anyone else. Yes, it is a difficult job that places your life in danger, however, you CHOSE to do it for a living.
That does not give you some divine right to put biblical sayings on government trucks.
Much to the chagrin of the vast majority of christians in the United States, we do live by the rule of Separation of Church and State.
Our Constitution, Founding Fathers and Supreme Court have all alluded to it, stated it flat out, interpreted it and upheld it time and time again.
SO
Saying the U.S. was founded as a christian nation is incredibly ignorant. Especially when you back it up with a phrase that wasn’t added to money or the pledge until about 50 years ago. More than a few of the founding fathers were outspoken atheists, or at least indifferent toward Christianity.
Lots of great quotes I could throw out, but here is one of my favorites:
“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Christianity has made one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites.”
– Thomas Jefferson
I just looked up and realized this article is about Marion, which is about 20 minutes from where I live. And I can’t say I’m one bit surprised. Keep in mind, this is the same place where everyone has the “In God We Trust” license plates.
I am currently a trainee firefighter with the (Australian) New South Wales Rural Fire Service as a volunteer… my brigade is relatively small at around 40 active members. I as yet have absolutely no idea what religious views, if any, are held by my colleagues. Religion just doesn’t seem to matter or come into it at all. I think the closest we come to religion is a humorous parody on our website of the Ten Commandments of Firefighting.
If just ONE MORE misinformed and ignorant person starts bleating about the USA being formed on Christian values, I swear I will scream!! At the very most the founders were deists, according to everything I’ve read (which may be more than you would think – it’s not only Americans who are interested), and thus did not believe in the role of God as anything more than the original creator of the universe. And even THAT was probably because there was no better explanation at the time.
truechristian:
I am truly humbled by your insightful comeback. I am at a loss for words.
Thank you for your contribution to our discussion. I think I can say for the group as a whole that we are all better informed due to your contribution.
Thank you.
Yeah Zayla, the depth of mature insight and intellectual expression by “true xian” is astounding is it not? So typical, however!
I propose a compromise, lets put random evolution facts on the side of fire trucks too to make it fair to everyone. O and masybe a verse from the Koran. Seriously people lighten up, those words are meant to bring comfort and hope, it in no way “forces” anything on anyone. The problem here isnt the words on the fire truck, its the intolerant people with no respect for anyones beliefs who whine about seeing that could possibly be taken to endorse religion on the side of a fire truck. If you object then maybe you should organize your own fire department. Geez, settle down people.
Alex:
Read your post carefully, those are the words of intolerance. It is usually the ones in the majority who say things like “lighten up” or “what’s the big deal”.
You are the one that has no respect for anyone’s beliefs. There may very well be someone on that fire truck who is a muslim and would be inspired by a verse from the Koran, but I’ll bet it wouldn’t go over well to mention it, would it? So, I guess he/she will just has to be “tolerant” and accept the word of “Jesus” to satisfy your idea of tolerance, right?
I guess the part you really miss is WE ALREADY ORGANIZED OUR OWN FIRE DEPARTMENT, and paid for it, and we’re very proud of it, except it’s got a biblical slogan on the side of one of it’s trucks.
Individuals, and groups are free to worship and inspire themselves in virtually countless ways and why they continually insist to do it flagrantly in the face of everyone, on public property, knowing it will cause a problem is beyond me. As was mentioned on here, they are free to keep inspirational messages, keepsakes, say prayers, etc. in countless ways, just not on taxpayer property.
We have a unique, wonderful system when it comes to religion. There is no other country in the world where you can worship as freely as you can here. There are some consequences, and many of them are man made.
I’m sure that the tolerant parishoners of Marion wouldnt complain at all if the fire truck bore a large sign exclaiming “Allahu Akbar”
Do you have nothing more to do in your lifetime, why don’t you become a firefighter and actually save people…
Right, because pointing out unethical, bigoted, or discriminatory behavior is such a waste of time. Why would anyone bother to do such a thing? People should just go through lives with their heads bowed down, never looking up and never complaining about what they see.
Right?
Ok Mr. Austin I am not here to fight with anyone but lets break down the verse/quote “Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil”. Ok First of all it says though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death………this doesnt mean were driving down the road and see it and then watch this means we are putting our lives on the line everyday and risking maybe not coming home to our wife and kids that night. Second I will fear no evil…….this part does not mean that we will not be scared i am a New York City firefighter and have been in hunderds of fires and yet i still get scared. But what the “fear no evil” means is i feel at comfort with my God that if I knock on the gates of death tonight then i will be in Gods hands and im at peace with that. And honestly i dont belive that if we drag you or any of your family out of a fire anytime. I dont belive that you will care if the rescuer is Christian or any other religion. But i wish the best for you. God Bless and stay safe.
Why? Unless a government institution has some authority to be promoting biblical verses in the first place, the meaning of the verse isn’t very important.
So if you’d like to defend the idea that government institutions and bodies have the authority to promote or endorse any one group’s religious scriptures, go ahead.
And what about firefighters who don’t believe in your god?
I dont know any firefighter for the city of NY that doesnt belive in a higher power i never said it had to be God almighty
1. The above news story doesn’t come from NY.
2. Just because you don’t know any doesn’t mean that there aren’t any; chances are, there are a bunch.
“God,” capitalized can only refer to the deity in Judaism, Christianity, and/or Islam. In the context of America where most theist are Christian, it will naturally and necessarily be interpreted as a reference to the Christian deity — especially when is quoting from the Bible.
Now, would you care to actually answer any of the questions and objections I raised or not?
First off you just need to realize that the fire department does not discriminate when it comes to saving lives and doing their job. Fire departments and EMS will come out and do what they need to do no matter what the circumstances may be at the time. They can and will take whatever motivation they can get. When you have seen even half of what we firefighters see on a regular basis then, and then only you MAY have a right to judge what is displayed on the sides of our vehicles public property or not. Our fire departments and EMS services have lost so many people over the years and it is very hard these days to get anyone interested in this line of work and doing this kind of service for the public. They don’t even begin to get paid enough in most areas for the services they do for the people in their neighborhood. They put their lives on the line everyday to save people like you. The last thing they need is one more person coming up with some rediculous reason to tear them down. Motivation can come from a number of places and if they choose to use the words from the Bible then so be it. Whether or not they consider it to be a “slogan” or a “bible verse” it is what it is, it is a motivating factor to their job. We as firefighters and EMS do not discriminate against gender, race, or religion. When the tones drop, we are always there no matter what. I think you’ll soon realize that it’ll be people like this, who want to complain about such things, that will suffer in the long run.
But they do, apparently, sometimes abuse their positions by using the government to promote personal religious beliefs.
Which of course doesn’t require using the government to promote their religion.
As a citizen who pays for the vehicle and for the firefighter’s salaries, I have every right to judge what is on the sides of those vehicles. Being a firefighter who deals with awful things does not give one license to break the law while doing so.
If someone feels that they are being “torn down” simply because they are being told that they aren’t above the law, then they suffer from psychological problems too severe to allow them to be in public service at all.
Sure, but that doesn’t require one to abuse their position by using the government to promote their religion.
So you don’t discriminate, but if someone complains about you breaking the law you issue a thinly veiled threat about not receiving equal treatment because of it.
Thank you for ending your argument with a demonstration that you weren’t being honest with your argument from the start.
Let me go ahead an ask you a question, do you or do you NOT spend the U.S. dollars which contains “In God We Trust” on them, and I don’t see you stirring up as big a deal about that. You know that without having money you’d get no where, so you continue to use it. Isn’t this the money you spend to “As a citizen who pays for the vehicle and for the firefighter’s salaries, I have every right to judge what is on the sides of those vehicles.” So in a round about way you’re being hypocritical to the whole situation. I in no way ended my argument in a way that demonstrated that I wasn’t being honest. I do have God in my life and that requires honesty and respect. Even if I was not a part of the fire dept. or EMS service I still 100% of the way would respect them for the job they do and how they put their lives on the line. What do you do, but hide behind a computer with your poor excuse of an argument against one of the most honorable and respected services that the United States has.
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
So go ahead and respond with whatever you can come up with but that fact of the matter is, God prevails in all situations. I pity you and those of you who don’t understand how vital God is in your lives
I’ve written far more about that than I’ve written about this. Before making statements about what you do or do not see, did it occur to you to do a search on the site first? Did it occur to you that before trying to compare my treatment of the two issues, you should maybe gather a little evidence to determine how they actually compare?
I can cross out the words on the money. Can I take spray paint to the fire truck?
You are confusing money with paper bills. The funds used to pay for fire fighting equipment are not paper bills with religious mottos, but checks or electronic transfers.
Then you need to take another look because you kept trying to claim that firefighters don’t discriminate then ended with a threat of discrimination. That’s a demonstration that one was never being honest with their protests about there not being discrimination.
1. I’m not hiding, my identity is public and clear; we can contrast this with your own anonymity. Of course you have every right to remain anonymous and not put your name to your arguments but if you take this route you give up any right to make even genuine complaints about others “hiding behind a computer,” never mind false complaints about that.
2. I’m not making an argument against a profession, but against a few individuals who abused their government positions by doing something illegal. I don’t find it very credible that you could lack the ability to tell the difference between criticism of an act by a couple of fire fighters and criticism of the entire profession of fire fighting.
3. If I’ve only made a “poor excuse of an argument,” then why is it that you haven’t actually mounted a direct and substantive rebuttal to my argument? Since I may not be able to assume that you understand what the argument is, allow me to quote the central point:
Please, do explain what’s wrong with this argument if you can.
It’s your opinion that your god prevails in all situations; simply declaring it as a fact to people who don’t believe in your god is meaningless at best and arguably just an way of avoiding having to construct substantive arguments for your position.
I could say that I pity people who need to rely on fantasy and superstition instead of facing the real world, but I’m not so arrogant, condescending, disrespectful, and insulting at to go to their sites and tell them this.
So here is a clear demonstration that your protest about having “respect” in your heart is not matched by being respectful in your actions. What does this say about your protest that you also have “honesty” in your heart?