If America is such a religious and Christian nation, who in the United States doesn't believe in God? It seems almost incredible that anyone, or at least any significant percentage of the population, would actually buck tradition and society by not believing - but in reality, quite a few people don't bother with theism.
Netscape News reports on a recent Harris poll:
- Ten percent of Protestants, 21 percent of Roman Catholics, and 52 percent of Jews do not believe in God.
- 84 percent of women believe in God, compared with 73 percent of men.
- 91 percent of African Americans believe in God, compared with 81 percent of Hispanics and 78 percent of whites.
- 87 percent of Republicans believe in God, compared with 78 percent of Democrats and 75 percent of Independents.
- 82 percent of those with no college education believe in God, compared with 73 percent who went to college.
Those are very interesting numbers. Although 79 percent of Americans believe there is a God, only 66 percent are absolutely certain of it - that means that 21 percent of the population are atheists and 34 percent are agnostics. Much, much more than people usually assume!
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i hate peoples who doesnt believe in Jesus
me myself ddo really believe in God !!
I believe in God and I have a VERY BIG FAITH in hiim
what do you think will happen to us if God didn’t exist??
well we have our own opinions
just want to say
I BELIEVE IN GOD !!!!!
You’re a moron.
Why is it that when a person unfortunately is not intelligent or is very low in his IQ is called a moron maybe because you are so intellectual, so advanced your (kind!) know it all, why all the scientist and intellectual do not call on you for advice everybody should burn all the book start from scratch and let you teach us.
You must be a god
Sorry about my sarcasm but the word moron shouldn’t be in peoples minds.
Albert
Obviously nothing happens to us cuz god doesnt exist
Your oblivious
I’m sorry… but shouldn’t someone so educated know that “your oblivious” means that the person possesses obliviousness. What Mr.Educated meant was “You’re oblivious”. Oh, and by the way you’re oblivious.
Do not hate those who don’t believe, for this is not glorifying god, but doing quite the opposite. One of the GREATEST thins Jesus Christ first teaches us, is to love your enemy, hate the sin, not the sinner. For if you hate the sinner, you may as well hate your self. For you are a sinner as well. Just food for thought.
There is some lowliness inside our heart that each human feel it, and yet through ignorance most of us do not except and why because we have not the time to concentrate and because we are fare more intelligent yet we are all disobedient to each other starting after we are born we all have that little dictatorship in us all.
God gave us some extra sense which other creatures haven’t and that is why Jesus is born in flesh and blood in our Image. God always thought us some thing threw times according to our behaviour but it’s a pity that when he was among us we had to crucify him. I could go on and on it is a subject that one can start and never finish these are my thought love you all
Albert
Anne if you’re a true believer in God you would know that people shouldn’t judge one another, God is the real judge so if you would like people to believe in God you should lead by example and don’t say that you hate people that don’t believe in God or Jesus
GOD MADE US !!! BUT WHO MADE GOD ???
THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT HAUNT ME !!!!!!!!!
From your blog it seems your real issue is more if religion and God which are not one and the same.
I can unequivocally state that God exists. I am not simple, nor naïve. I am a law student who is on the brink of finishing my degree. I have seen miracles both in my life and that of my family’s. I have experienced myriad of things all linking to God. When I was younger and my nana died, I visited Heaven in a dream. I saw three thrones and I sat on Jesus lap. He was wearing a blue gown.
My nana was on the right side of him sat down. I remember the gates of heaven. They were originally adorned with jewels albeit they suddenly turned into smarties (as back then I adored them). I also vividly remember walking down to meet nana and Jesus and on each side people were watching me. Each and everyone was dressed in white. My nana said, “..tell your mum I will see her soon’. I was 2years old.
I still remember the dream to this day. I had not been taught about God then thus I had not merely made it up. This is but one of my experiences.
God is not a religion. Satan created religion in the bid to turn people away from God. Even if you do not believe in God, why not just try to say hello to him in a genuine pray one night? Approve/disprove entrenched thinking. God has answered many of my prayers.
I have been through an incredible amount and on some occasions I felt overwhelmed. However, through such darkness, God brought light and it was from that suffering that I became a new person.
Scientists in Sweden have undertaken tests that have shown that when a person dies, their body weighs slightly less, taking into account other bodily losses post death. Thus, they concluded that weight loss had to be a soul.
Also, an astronaut who was originally a stout atheist came down from a mission and declared he was now a believer in God. Why? Because he saw something that made him conclude that God existed.
God is a loving, wonderful man. If you take the time to get to know him, I can assure you the benefits are everlasting.
I find it interesting how there are soo many sites etc dedicated to atheism. They are certainly passionate about turning people away from God. You must have to ask yourself why? Why such passion? Normally such passion is reserved for when you know something does exist and you are vehement about turning people away from God before it is too late. Please have a think about that one….
God bless you x
Aww, I had a dream once that I went to the north pole and I sat on santa’s lap and I met his elves.
However, I find that I’m too old for imaginary friends now.
Then you should be able to supply proof. Only a simple, naive person would make such an assertion without substantial evidence to provide in support.
I would like to say that I do not believe in God. I may only be 14 but I am not stupid. If there was a God, who created him? How could he just be there. And to Anne; you said you hate people who don’t believe in God. a lot of my friends believe in God, they don’t hate me. why do you hate me just because I have different opinions than you?
Alot of the people comenting can’t fathem God always exsisting. I say try imagining the universe, were it starts and ends, how many stars are out there? ITs hard to imagin but God has alwatys been there, always. Mind blowing is’nt it. God has blessed me in many ways and I say that as an unemployed man that srtuggles to make it every week. I have a wonderful family. Jesus is the way to eternity. RLR
Tell me em what is so significant about human beings that we of all creatures deserve to be the pinnacle of any gods’ creation. Surely you cannot be a rational person if you do not perceive the concept that emotions, and love are all just chemical reactions that take place in bodies just as they do in any other creature. There is no inherent value to anything, but that which we give it. For me personally I am well aware of the lack of inherent value of anything, and I am nonetheless depressed, or put off by it because I am glad to assign my own value to things in my life, and not those of others beliefs of lessons.
Interesting that most people believe in God. I guess I’m one of them but maybe it’s just the places I go on the internet it seems like everyone is an Atheist. But apparently not on this page haha. Where do these stats come from btw? Also, either your math is off or your definitions are off. 79% believe in God, 66% are sure of God. Agnostic and Atheists should divide the 21% that is left? Atheists are not a part of Agnostics. And if you believe in God you are not Agnostic. In my opinion you should organize it into 4 separate statistics. 66% are sure that there is a God. 13% believe but are not sure that there is a God. x% do not believe that anyone can know whether or not there is a God. x% believe that there is not a God.
Also if anyone REALLY cares about how God was created I can tell you all about it. But I have a feeling that it’s just something you say because you think it’s good back up of what you believe not an actual question you want answered.
As is stated quite clearly above: a Harris Poll from 2003
No. If 79% believe, that leaves 21% who are atheists.
If 66% are absolutely certain that a god exists, then most of the 34% left are agnostics. The only non-agnostics in that group are atheists who are not also agnostics, and that is a relatively small number.
No, they aren’t. Atheism and agnosticism are separate but not mutually exclusive. All agnostics are also either atheists or theists.
Yes, you can be.
Also, neither atheism nor agnosticism are proper nouns and thus they shouldn’t be capitalized in the middle of a sentence. Capitalizing them suggests that you think they are ideologies of some sort, which is an error.
Is there any reason why anyone should think that you actually know?
Back up what belief, specifically?
According to my polling results 70% of the responders are theists challenged by logic.
#4-Where do you go to law school?I want to tell my daughter to avoid the place.
I have to agree with John Thomson about #4. If you are in law school, you have completely simplistic reasoning abilities and I really don’t think I’d hire you as a lawyer. You would have to be much more erudite in person than you are in print. And Anne, #1…I’m not sure if she was for real or someone’s idea of a joke..my, oh, my…
America is not a Christian nation. Anyone can practice his/her own religion with full rights in this nation.
Im no genius but Im curious; How does one come to the conclusion that a Roman Catholic or a Protestant NOT believe in God?…Only on an atheist web site. lol
there is a time in our lives that the more you pray and do good
you are paid with unfairnes most good peaple (Inocent) from
day one are iltreated you name it starting from desies, money
schooling;in one word some are born under a star you can be
lucky or the other way round.
the point is that we are seronded by evil spirits that hates
humans because we are lucky to own body and spirit and this
is a specal gift but with a very short life some live longer,
others has a shorter life this makes as special to GOD to
proove if we are worthed to (Him) to be trusted or not yet
we have to pray with good intention soul and body.
for example God cannot correct some body else to halp you
because then he will be taking sides others have to pay for
there wrongly doings but on the other hand you have a + in
your vaver. I hope you understand my explnation.
Albert
god is an imaginary figure for those of you r afraid of the thought of not existing after death. you are cowards accept it. live your life now because there is no after life!
You cannot prove there is no life after death. No one ever has proven that and no one ever will. Also there are probably very few people who fear not existing after death, that is not a scary reality at all. What people truly fear is not knowing for certain what happens after death and contemplating the possibly of eternal hell. Evolution and the Big Bang are the imaginary fantasties of the human mind. Those two theories are the real joke and anyone who believes in them is putting their faith in a complete lie!!!
The evidence against it is sufficiently strong and broad to reject the idea and consider it disproven enough.
No more so than Relativity and Plate Tectonics.
If you’re consistent then you also reject the rest of modern science, like modern medicine and computers.
Ooops.
What will be your responce to ending up in hell? If that happens and you see God in judgement what will you do if you have been dead wrong during your lifetime? Why have you spent the majority of your adult life trying to disprove God. If you don’t believe why not move on and do something productive with your life. Not just debate people on the web every day. Answer those questions. Don’t BS your way out of them!
I have no reason to fear that any more than I have a reason to fear that I won’t go to Valhalla.
I haven’t.
Why do you go out of your way to make assumptions about people you don’t know and have never met?
Like you, you mean? You’ve doing something very productive with your life here.
I don’t do that, either.
You’re pretty demanding. You don’t have enough respect for me as a human being to refrain from making assumptions about my life, but you act like you feel entitled to answers to whatever questions pop into your mind. All of that is arrogant and presumptuous – yet you simultaneously put on airs about being morally superior to atheists.
I might be a bit demanding, I will give you that. You still never answered my questions though you sidestepped them. If you are right and nothing happens after you die. I will not do anything because I will no longer exist. Have the guts to say what your reaction will be to God if and when you are proven wrong. What will you say “sorry God I guess the theists were right all along”, and then plead for mercy. Make an articulate answer please.
Yet you feel no need to change.
No, I answered them. It’s just that my answers don’t conform to your preconceptions and assumptions about me.
I never made any statements about what you might or might not do after death, so I’m afraid I can’t make any sense out of what this might be in reference to.
Since I see no reason to think that I am wrong, expecting me to have a response to what will happen “when” I’m proven wrong is like asking ask if I’ve stopped beating my wife — it commits a fallacy by assuming that I ever beat my wife in the first place.
Your original question was “what will be your response to ending up in hell.” This question make two assumption: that a hell exists and that I believe a hell exists. The question is not answerable in the manner you demand without first treating both assumptions as true. Since I don’t accept them as true, it’s not possible to answer them in the way you expect. Instead, I answer by pointing out the flaws in your assumptions.
The appropriate thing for you to do at that point is revise your question to eliminate the problematic premises. Simply repeating the same question in new words but with the same assumptions indicates that you either don’t understand the logical problems in what your are saying or that you do but don’t care because you are more interested in scoring rhetorical points. Neither is conducive to substantive, serious conversation and neither reflect well on you.
And why would I say any such a thing?
Perhaps you could ask a more articulate question. First, ask a question — don’t make demands from a position of entitlement. You might give some thought to the value of words like “please” and the sort of attitude that lies behind genuine, sincere use of such words (hint: the words “make an articulate answer” and “have the guts” do not typically precede a sincere use of the word “please”). Second, give some indication that your questions are genuine — i.e., that you admit to having things to learn. This is incompatible with making assumptions about people you don’t know. Third, be articulate — this means asking real questions instead of questions that commit fallacies.
Well I give you some respect at least you had the decency to put some effort into your responces. I will give you to questions you can answer adequately? First, do believe Jesus Christ ever existed? I am guessing probably not. Also how can you prove he never existed? Anyway, God Bless and have a good life!
I don’t know. Will you?
It’s possible, depending on what one means by “Jesus Christ.” If one means a carpenter and/or wandering preacher who may have been named something like Yeshua… that’s possible, but unimportant. There were lots of carpenters and wandering preachers in that region around that time. I don’t care about the rest of them, so why care about one more?
If you mean a magical person who raised the dead, then no.
What did I say about making assumptions?
Not my job. If someone asserts that he existed the burden is theirs to support that claim. If they can’t, then they should not expect anyone to believe them.
Thanks, I do have a good life — and without any gods, too.
Thanks for your response, Anne, if there IS Any God up there, like The Afterlife, The Creature ‘Himself’ is still & to myself A Symbol & A Repetition of the fact that My Danish
Mother can’t accept me, because she doesn’t want to accept, approve of herself, so that I can at least & of course, like sooner, like so many others, become & believe
in & as much as possible about, what my own nature tells
me, also who & whose it is, myself & mine own that I still
don’t know, don’t think, probably never find out, if I can fail to rely on & ‘testify’ to being happy to exist as, whatever righteously pleases & tells me, what it wants to, also what it is, e.g. The Buddhism, a good moral, My Relevant Wife’s ‘XXX,’ any stuff like that, greetings, ‘J.A.,’
arentved@in.com, there, whoever is who, & still to be concluded, with pleasure!
P.S.: Only as a ‘good’ result of the ‘fact’ that I believed in
‘His ‘Relevant” Existence, did a terrible accident happen to
me, one that I owed & gave myself absolutely no idea, whatsoever that I could call MY fault, greetings, ‘J.A.,’ – a fault that ‘He’ though indirectly insisted that noone could solve, let alone myself.
James (17). Please discuss the Big Bang theory, from a Cosmological viewpoint, and show how it is an imaginary fantisy of the human mind, a real joke, and a complete lie.
Em (4). I can unequivically state that I wish I had a memory even a microscopic fraction as good as yours. You can remember a dream that you had at age 2; I cannot even remember being age 2.
anne (1). To which god are you referring?
james (comment 27). I must apologize for capitalizing your name; it was entirely accidental.
If you don’t have time to discuss all of your comments about the Big Bang theory, I would be happy to read your discussion of just one (1); your choice.
These are very interesting numbers indeed. Atheists don’t have to be a majority in order to have significant influence on matters of public policy.
james.Did you preach and run, as all previous Fundies have done, when I gave them the opportunity to discuss their comments? What did you accomplish by making statements that you either cannot or refuse to defend?
james. Good advice for Fundies. “If you have nothing to say, say nothing.”; Mark Twain.
Each person If interested wanting to know if there is or is not a God must go on there own quest. Not based on what your grandmother or any other important person in your life has taught or shared with you growing up. But starting with questions that are very simple like who, what, when & etc. I grew up in church my whole life & as soon as i was on my own made a decision to not believe in God for various reasoning but @ 27 decided to reaserch things . I think each person owes it to themselves to do the same. The interesting thing about my journey is that I found out that alot of things that I was taught when I was young was not accurate, but I do not blame anyone ! The 1 thing I do believe is the Bible !!! It was written over 1600 yrs ago & has some very accurate & bold statements that were true way back then & Very accurate now.The following states in Romans 1 vs 18-32 Ignoring God Leads to a Downward Spiral
18-23But God’s angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can’t see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but when they didn’t treat him like God, refusing to worship him, they trivialized themselves into silliness and confusion so that there was neither sense nor direction left in their lives. They pretended to know it all, but were illiterate regarding life. They traded the glory of God who holds the whole world in his hands for cheap figurines you can buy at any roadside stand.
24-25So God said, in effect, “If that’s what you want, that’s what you get.” It wasn’t long before they were living in a pigpen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out. And all this because they traded the true God for a fake god, and worshiped the god they made instead of the God who made them—the God we bless, the God who blesses us. Oh, yes!
26-27Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn’t know how to be human either—women didn’t know how to be women, men didn’t know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.
28-32Since they didn’t bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating. Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives. They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded. And it’s not as if they don’t know better. They know perfectly well they’re spitting in God’s face. And they don’t care—worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!
From James “What will be your responce to ending up in hell? If that happens and you see God in judgement what will you do if you have been dead wrong during your lifetime? … Answer those questions. Don’t BS your way out of them!”
James, did you know that it is impossible to combine with oxygen forever? (Should I use you flip condescension and add “Probably not!”?) If so, can you see that his is just exactly what the eternaql torture you are so fond of means?
Don’t try to BS your way out of this. Just admit that you were wrong.
Anne,
It is so very Christian of you to hate us so much.(sorry for the sarcasm) Perhaps you could study the psychology of non-theists? Hate is such a strong word. Everyone has a reason for what they believe. Are you willing to listen? You might learn something important about yourself and the world.
Take Care,
Cathy
The church, religion, god, Jesus, the Prophet Mohamed, Muslims, Christians, Jews. ITS ALL ANOTHER FORM OF POLITICS. IT STARTED WAY BEFORE POLITICS WAS EVER INVENTED. AND IN THOSE DAYS WHEN IT ALL STARTED, THE PEOPLE BELIEVED ANYTHING WHAT THEY WERE TOLD. IT WAS PART OF THE LAWS OF THOSE DAYS. SOCIETY HAS BRAINWASHED EVERYBODY. IMAGINE EVERYBODY STOPPED IMAGINING IT DOES NOT EXIST. DO YOU REALLY THINK SOMEBODY IS GOING TO COME DOWN FROM THE SKY TO TELL US WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU ALL DOING NOW.
SCIENTIST HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO PROVE A THING SO EVERYTHING ITS ALL IN THE MIND!!! WITHOUT RELIGION THERE WOULD BE MORE PEACE IN OUR WORLD IN THE FIRST PLACE. BUT AT LEAST AS MAN IS GETTING MORE CIVILIZED HE WAKES UP TO REALITY AND THATS WHY RELIGION SUPPORT IS GOING DOWNHILL. IT MEANS WE EVOLVING!!!
have read many of these responses i am embarressed at my fellow man but not surprized. veva reality
I agree with Em..
HI . I am a muslim. and i think there is really no point in discussing this topic . because God exists for sure and none can deny it . just look at Quran and its verses . it has been said so beautifully that u fell in love with reading it up to the end . look around u , every thing you see has been created by him. and Satan sweared to mislead every single person except for the ones who are truly trust GOD like prophets and emams . so satan tries to make some serious and controversial questions like ” who has created god ? ” to distract us . of course this question hasn’t been answered because we human can not understand and perceive at all.
that’s why God said : DO NOT go for this answer because u will be deceived by satan . ( sry for my poor english )
Why not?
I’ve read it. Didn’t fall in love with it.
Prove it.
Prove it.
So, you don’t distract yourself with troublesome things like asking questions, right?
If you cannot understand and perceive at all, then how can you know that the question cannot be anwered? That conclusion requires understanding.
Prove it.
It’s easy to forgive poor English; it’s much hard to forgive poor thinking and reasoning.
(Part 1)
First of all, I want to say that Anne is probably a troll or an ESL (English Second Language, like me) who doesn’t exactly undestand the meaning of ‘hate’.
Now I want to mention that there is only one way to prove that God exists, and that is throught Jesus Christ and the Bible. He came to earth and helped those in need: He didn’t stay with those righteous at heart, but rather with those that needed to be cured, either physically, mentally, or morally.
In the Bible, lots of things that were discovered later on in history are talked about without us noticing, for example., dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. Also, the Bible says every star is unique, something people didn’t know by that time.
Of course, people can still be atheist after knowing about this if they are really stubborn (Please don’t take that as an insult, I am very stubborn as well, and it helps me get what I want done). They still want direct proof that God exists: That can’t be proved directly. It really can’t. I have tried to prove indirectly with the Bible. If you believe in the indirect proofs, and have faith, then one direct proof will come to you: His presence.
Trust me, He’s hard to feel sometimes. Really hard. But if you have enough faith, you’ll realize He’s wherever sin is not. He may as well have caused the Big Bang, a theory I disagree with from a scientifical point of view, but I’m ok with from a religious point of view.
Why is that the only way?
Prove it.
Or maybe we don’t find the information as credible as you do.
I’d welcome just good reasons, even if they fall short of proof. No one has met that level of support.
Why should I have faith in your god? Why not faith in Odin or Apollo?
Feel free to provide scientific arguments against the Big Bang.
(Part 2)
One last thign I wanna mention: Someone asked who created God. That’s an impossible question. God is infinite, and is not tied to the laws of physics, such as relativity. You can’t say God ‘has always existed’ because you are putting a past tense there. No, God IS. Is not like God was, or will, but He IS. In fact, I have a little theory that He is in what we live in, not the universe, since the universe was technically created by the big bang, but wathever holds the universe. I have this theory because God made us at His image, and the gravitational pull planets have with stars and satellites is very much like the one electrons have with protons inside of us.
I hope I have clarified my point: I am no one to force people to change their minds about the existence of God, but I can advice you to pray with an open mind, since there is indirect proof that he exists
hey, where’s part 2? I can’t see it… weird
Well, I believe is the only way. If you find another one, I’d be pleased to hear it.
Prove it? Read the Bible or trust me. In the part of the stars, for example: 1 Corinthians 15:41 – There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
You should have faith in God becuase of the ‘indirect proofs’ the Bible gives us, while there isn’t any indirect proof with Zeus or Ra. There is no ‘direct proof’, because my testimony of me seeing God does not count as ‘proof’. You’re studying law, you should know evidence is more valuable than a simple testimony. Who knows, I could have visions becuase of a mental disease.
About the Big Bang, I just think that inorganic matter cannot create life via an explosion. That’s called spontanous generation, I think, and it has been proved wrong many times throughout history. It’s possible to create organic matter from inorganic matter, but not possible to create life. But then again, I’m not here to talk about the Big Bang: that’s irrelevant to my religious point of view. I mean, the day spontanous generation is proved right I’ll accept the theory of the Big Bang as true and still believe in God
Why?
I’ve read the Bible and haven’t seen what you claim exists. A verse that insists that stars differ in glory doesn’t strike me as the anticipation of the scientific conclusion that all stars are “unique” never mind an “indirect proof of God.” However, if you wish to make such a case you are welcome to do so instead of simply asserting that all this is the case.
I haven’t seen any of these “indirect proofs” in the Bible.
How do you know?
Are you familiar with Muslim writings about how many scientific findings are “anticipated” in the Quran? Their claims look remarkably like yours. Do you accept their arguments and thus accept their conclusion that the Quran is the Word of God? If not, why not — what makes your position more credible and compelling than theirs?
Why?
No, it’s not.
It’s interesting that you claim that your rejection of the Big Bang is rooted in science, but you don’t seem to comprehend the difference between spontaneous generation and abiogenesis. Given that ignorance, I think it’s reasonable to consider it suspect that your objection to the Big Bang really is scientific at all.
Not possible? OK, provide your proof.
Prove it.
You seem to be a very smart person.
Anyways, you’re probably right about the Big Bang: I’m still in High School, nad haven’t studied about it enough. But I believe life cannot be created from inorganic matter, since science has proven that to be wrong.
Abiogenesis and Spontanous Generation are very similar though: I still don’t believe life can’t be generated from inorganic matter. It’s kind of like why you are an atheist: I just haven been proved more times that life cannot be created from inorganic matter, and have never been proved that life can in fact come from inorganic matter.
About the Quran, could you please cite those indirect proofs? I don’t have one, so I can’t look for them.
And for me they are indirect proofs because if they are true, then there must be something that makes the Bible be over other books or testaments. I mean, no one knew those things by that time, so…. Do you see my point? I have trouble expressing myself in English sometimes since it isn’t my first language.
And one last thing: These indirect proofs aren’t the reason for me being a Christian. I am a Christian because I have felt God in me. As I felt God, I then deduced that what the Bible says must be true. As I said, God is so over those ‘prove it’ that we can’t really explain why he exists. It’s pretty much… impossible to explain the infinite
Why don’t you believe this? Do you have a sound, scientific basis for this position or is it merely inconsistent with your assumptions?
Continually using “created from inorganic matter” suggests that the problem for you is incorrect assumptions. Abiogenesis doesn’t say that life was created from inorganic matter. Abiogenesis says that basic chemical reactions cause inorganic molecules to become organic molecules, that these organic molecules became self-replicating, and this became what we call “life.” If you have a scientific objection to this, then perhaps you can explain exactly what barrier exists to prevent chemical reactions from moving from one stage to the next.
A simple Google search would be sufficient.
Why? What’s more, what “other books or testaments” have you read to find that they do not have similar “indirect proofs”? If none, then you have absolutely no basis for comparison — and thus no basis for saying that one is “over” any others.
No. You’d have to establish that no one at the time ever speculated about anything along similar lines and no one could have correctly guessed. You’d also have to demonstrate that the text in question is unambiguously about the scientific matters you claim they are about — your conclusion cannot in any rely upon disputable or create interpretations.
So if it turned out that they were all wrong and you were mistaken about every single one, this wouldn’t cause you to reconsider your position. This means you don’t find them to be compelling arguments on behalf of any sort of theism. So, why should I find them compelling? Why should I give a second’s thought to any of them?
I’m not interested in arguments that even you find irrelevant. I’m only interested in arguments that are so important that, if found to be wrong, would cause you to at least reconsider and re-evaluate your position. If there is no such argument, then your position is not based on reason, logic, or evidence and is therefore not a reasonable position that anyone else need bother with.
Other people have felt other gods. Some people hear voices. Why are you any more credible than them?
And how many other religious texts have you examined as points of comparison? If none, then you’re saying that you “deduced” that the only religious text you’ve read “must be true.” If you haven’t invested real effort into investigating alternatives, then all you’ve done is latch on to the first thing you found that looked right. That’s not a deduction, that’s a failure to do research.
No, it’s impossible to explain that which is unreasonable, irrational, and absurd. An explanation presupposes that a position or idea is at least a little bit rational.
Mathematicians use “infinity” all the time without having much trouble explaining to each other what they are doing. It’s not the case that “the infinite” cannot be explained. Instead, it looks more like you cannot explain what your position is and are using the label “infinite” as a justification.
And by the way, how can your god be so “beyond” explanation and time but still have the dangling genitals required to be male? You must think your god has male genitals and/or DNA, otherwise you would call it “it” instead of “he.”
We call Him a ‘He’ because when God took the form of a human he decided to do so as a man. You’re right: We should call him ‘it’. And how does he have X and Y chromosomes? He doesn’t even have a material body, apart from the one with Jesus Christ, which is really.
Yeah… there isn’t really anything that can change my mind, no argument going down would make me think about changing my mind about God.
I’m just showing you all these indirect proofs becuase Atheist refuse to have faith, and always need proof, proof, and more proof. The Dead Sea Scrolls, which I’m sure you’ve heard about, are another example of an indirect proof.
You say that other people have felt other Gods. What if it was the same God and they all misinterpreted it, thinking it was a different God? If you’re wondering about that fact that I could be the one misinterpreting it, then I just have to say that Christians are a majority, so we’ve probably interpreted His message the right way.
Why is it so important for you to have a proof of God’s existence though? I mean, if that question isn’t too personal of course. You can can leave it unanswered if you want
Oh, one last thing, I’m not putting ‘infinite’ as an excuse. Infinite is one of the adjectives the human language has that can kind of describe God. Just think about it for a second from out point of view: God is great. God is everything (that does not have sin in it). God is almighty. He’s above everything. How can we provide evidence of something we believe to be over that evidence itself?
So you’re closed-minded, impervious to any evidence or arguments that might be offered. By definition, anything like a dialogue or conversation with you on the subject is impossible because such interactions imply the possibility of people learning new things and developing new positions.
No, you’re claiming that indirect proofs exist. You have yet to demonstrate the existence of one.
Feel free to show how, if you can.
That’s as likely as you having misinterpreted.
You should read up one logical fallacies. One of them is the argument from numbers: the belief that the number of people who believe something has any bearing on the truth of what they believe.
If your argument were to be taken seriously, then when Christians were a minority they probably misinterpreted; they didn’t become correct in their interpretations until they became a majority. That, however, is exceptionally absurd.
It isn’t. I’ve only asked you to prove the things you’ve made definitive, unambiguous claims of.
Then don’t make false claims about it.
So, you don’t even have a tiny bit of evidence for your god? Nothing at all? Once again you make it unambiguous that there is noting remotely reasonable or rational about your position. One might as well believe something because of a coin-flip.
Nope. It’s not becuase of a coin-flip, is because I feel him. And it’s true, we were a minority, but we have prevailed in our beliefs, and right now the strength we’ve put on believing into Him has gotten us here. Fake things don’t last.
I’m not going to show you any more ‘indirect proofs’. You are as well close-minded, so there’s no point on showing them. I mean, the dead see scrolls prove the old testament validity, and if you can’t see why, then explain it to me.
Jesus gave his life for us. Please don’t say my beliefs are based on a coin-flip when He gave His life for me. It really hurts me.
In this topic, it is useless for you to try to change my mind, but that isn’t really what’s happening, so it doesn’t matter if I am close minded, which I am not. God has moved my life, and no amount of arguing can say that isn’t right.
One last thing I wanna mention: I’ve skimmed (is that how you spell it? Sorry about my English) through the blog and found lots of things I didn’t agree with. One of them was that we claim atheists are going to hell while we are going to Heaven. That’s not true. God decides that, and I can’t even think about how God’s judgement is. For all I know, I could go to Hell and you could go to Heaven if He decides that, but I’d be ok with it since His judgement is perfect.
I know; I didn’t claim otherwise. I said it might as well be a coin-flip for all the reasoning behind it.
Feelings which are no more credible than the feelings of other human beings throughout history.
Which means that you must think that at the time they must have misinterpreted – at least, if you take your own argument seriously and consistently. I doubt you do.
Ergo, you must believe that all the other old religions must not be fake either – at least, if you take your own own argument seriously and consistently. I doubt you do.
You haven’t shown any.
I’m open to being convinced by strong evidence and arguments. That’s why I keep asking for them. Despite repeated challenges, though, you have yet to go beyond asserting that something is “proof” and actually start demonstrating that something is a proof. Put another way, you have yet to move beyond mere assertion and into something substantive.
But since you yourself don’t find any of those proofs to be the least bit compelling, that’s probably OK. If you don’t find them compelling, then they aren’t worth wasting time on.
I don’t see why because I don’t see any reason to think that the mere existence of a document containing certain text entails that another document with the same or similar text is true in what that text says. If you think otherwise, then show how.
You’ve made the assertion that “the Dead Sea Scrolls prove the Old Testament validity.” You’ve asserted that one thing is proof of another. This obligates you to demonstrate this proof. This obligates you to demonstrate exactly how the validity of anything in the Old Testament, as well as the Old Testament as a whole, is “proven” by anything in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I honestly don’t think you can do it. I question whether you understand what a “proof” is and I am quite sure that you wouldn’t even know where to start to construct a sound argument demonstrating the truth of your assertion. I am, however, quite open to being shown that I’m wrong.
Prove it.
I didn’t. Read my words again: One might as well believe something because of a coin-flip.
Perhaps you should double-check to see if you’ve understood something correctly before feeling wounded.
This is quite handy, though. You’ve demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can develop a feeling (“hurt”) based on a mistake. The feeling is genuine, but the foundation is a misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Ergo, you can be mistaken in what you think the origin of your feelings is — you can develop feelings based on you misinterpreting something. Since you keep repeating that you believe because you “feel” something, it should be clear even to you that you could be mistaken.
Your belief that “God has moved” your life may be just as accurate as your belief that I said that your beliefs “are based on a coin-flip.”
Perhaps you’d like to provide a definition of “closed-minded” that doesn’t include “you can’t change my mind.” I doubt you can. Your position here is the definition of closed-minded.
Says the person who has proven that they can develop feelings based on mistakes.
That’s standard Christian dogma, so it’s not me that you disagree with.
So you’re OK with people suffering infinite torture for all eternity. I can’t regard that as anything short of morally depraved.
I don’t like people suffering for all eternity… I believe they can still get to salvation somehow. I’m sure God will save them. Anyways, I can’t really think straight at this point of the night, so I’ll go to bed now and continue tomorrow, I guess.
About me proving that Jesus gave his life for us, that’s something you have to know it’s true when you acknlowdge God as real, if you ever do so. God is beyond logical arguments though, through which you go by…
Anyways, good night and sleep tight. And merry chri- I mean Happy hannukah or wathever Atheists celebrate.
You must, otherwise you don’t like what your god has decided is just.
So you can’t prove it. It’s intellectually irresponsible to claim things you can’t support.
That’s just a weak excuse for “I have no logical basis for what I believe but don’t want to admit this.”
I have nO logical bases for what I believe in. I just KNOW it’s true. Kind like Descartes… How do I know I’m not living in a dream and you don’t exist? I know it.
Thank you. You have made me realize God is beyond any proof or logical argument: the closest thing to a logical argument that God exists is Descarte’s reconstruction from the cogito, and even that argument has some holes. You should read Descartes overall, he’s pretty interesting.
In think my God is just and perfect. Who knows, maybe people just stay in Hell for what We feel it’s an eternity, and for Him is a limited time that will purify our sins. I mean how can we know? It’s God.
I-
The same could be said on behalf of any position or claim. A racist could say the same.
Which is an excuse you wouldn’t accept from anyone else on behalf of any other alleged god. That’s why it’s just an excuse, not a serious defense.
If religious types are so sure of their beliefs, why are the vast, vast majority of people afraid to die? After all, you go to paradise when you die according to most religions.
You’d think people would want to die as soon as possible so they could start enjoying the after life in heaven. It’s unheard of for a soldier fighting in a war to be wishing to be killed so he or she can go to heaven. Instead they’re hoping against hope that they won’t be killed. That goes for just about every other situation too. No one wants to get killed in a car accident, or die of cancer so they can hurry up and go to heaven. There’s this tremendous clinging by people to this life instead, even amongst the very old and disabled where there is virtually no quality of life left for them. You’d think it would be the other way around. If there was absolute proof of a perfect afterlife complete with brochures, people would be lining up to die. Maybe the believers are not so sure about it after all. Why not?
Just the other day I had someone call me closed minded. My assertion was this: Give me one shred of evidence for the existence of any god and I will change my mind. I have yet to have any theist assert the same thing, but I am the closed minded one.
I was also called “arrogant” because I dared to question someone else’s faith. Still when asked, no one could point to any one thing during the entire conversation that followed a dictionaryy definition of arrogance. According to these people, I just “sounded arrogant.” I don’t get it.
Right, it’s really “closed minded” to be willing to change your mind.
It’s simple: humility consists of not challenging popular beliefs, cultural assumptions, or powerful institutions. As soon as a minority starts to act like they are the equal of others, that’s arrogance. Similar behavior from the majority, though, isn’t arrogance because it’s the right of the majority to do whatever it wants without being challenged or questioned.
I do not believe in a god. I am only twelve. I made two close friends, and a few months later, I learned that they do not either. Many comments on many sites state that they dislike or hate people that are like my and my friends. And I have one question: Why? Just because we think differently and display differing opinions, is that any reason not to like each other? You have never met me, yet you already do not like me. What if I said that I did not like anyone who believes in ghosts? Is that fair? Is it right? Would your God want you to do it? What about Jesus? What we he say if he saw you judging people like that?
And just because you aren’t like me, that does not mean I hate you. And I do not hate you. I simply wish that you would not hate those who aren’t like you. I would like it made clear that this is meant to be read calmly and without any anger or resentment.
I think it is all fairy tales, with the sole purpose of keeping populations subjagated, through fear and guilt. The sooner we shed this collective delusion the better for everyone
Nice discussion, well i believe in GOD and i don’t have to prove it. How about a challenge? why don’t all the non believer prove there isn’t GOD.
How do you people not see that it’s a two sided coin,each of them entirely based on your doubtless belief.And it has been proven by many historians that christianity,and the branches of it have been used to enslave mind and body.
”Don’t steal,it’s a sin” – How can it be a sin if all people were born equal on earth and everything there is is supposedly shared among all human beings.How can you steal what belongs to you according to god? For the retarded ones,the answer is – you can’t.This rule was created by the rich slavekeepers who didn’t want any of their wealth taken.And even now, people follow the mindset of a slave: ‘i’m sinner,always guilty.gotta be perfect or god will abuse my anus with a horse dick.’Open your freaking eyes,people.
Religion was the reason of a 1000 year holdback in technology,because it was ‘against god’.And now,that we crawled to the state of having a few computers,why do you christians use it? Why use cars and home appliances if they’re all the Devils work? You make no sense.
On the other hand,i do not support the big bang.It’s just complete and utter bullshit.
I see all the imperfections in religion, but i hope there’s heaven and hell. I want to go to hell,cause Satan is a pretty cool guy.He doesn’t fuck us up for living on the same planet as him,and doesn’t afraid of anything.
There is no real proof that any god exists. I don’t see what reason there is to believe in one.